False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[Josheb]

The above statement isn't true....so why do you continue to use it?

I would ask you to prove it, but I am still waiting on you to prove Jesus leaves heaven on a white horse specifically to rapture the elect and I've already informed you I won't be baited off topic.

Evidence of pretribulationism surfaces.........

Off topic red herring.

I trust you stand corrected.

Red herrings never correct anything.

• Provide scripture explicitly stating Jesus leaves heaven on the Rev. 19 white horse.
• Provide scripture explicitly stating he leaves on the white horse specifically to rapture the elect.
• Or post an acknowledgement scripture does not explicitly state any such thing.

Please do it now, without further delay. Do not get distracted or diverted. Do not avoid the matter further. Just post the scripture or acknowledge the silence.

 

[CrowCross]

I would ask you to prove it, but I am still waiting on you to prove Jesus leaves heaven on a white horse specifically to rapture the elect and I've already informed you I won't be baited off topic.

Off topic red herring.

Red herrings never correct anything.

• Provide scripture explicitly stating Jesus leaves heaven on the Rev. 19 white horse.
• Provide scripture explicitly stating he leaves on the white horse specifically to rapture the elect.
• Or post an acknowledgement scripture does not explicitly state any such thing.

Please do it now, without further delay. Do not get distracted or diverted. Do not avoid the matter further. Just post the scripture or acknowledge the silence.

Specifically? I agree there is no "specific verse" BUT....when you read the text you find out it is what the bible proclaims.

Lets piece it together...

11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse!

15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations,
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army

It doesn't sound like the white horse and the rider stay in some heavenly paddock.

 

[Josheb]

Jesus doesn't leave heaven on a white horse to gather the elect in the rapture. That's the point....as we all know Jesus will return at the rapture in the same way in which He left....and He didn't leave riding a white horse.

You were the one who brought up the white hose. You were the one connecting Revelation 19 to the rapture. I did not put that on your posts. Post 62 states,

I've shown that to be wrong as Christ second coming has Him riding a white horse...which is not how Christ ascended. The great tribulation is for the Jews (and the unsaved). Christians are not destined for that wrath and will be delivered from it.

That post places Christ's second coming, riding on a white horse prior to the tribulation. Post 68 states the following...

Perhaps you missed it....Christ returns twice. At the rapture the way He left....and a second time riding a white horse. That's biblical.

According to that post Christ does not have only a second coming; he has a second and a third coming - he comes twice! He comes on a white horse the second time. And then you say...

Not only did Jesus not leave on a white horse...which totally shows problems with your false belief....we also have the Noah prophecy.

Completely failing to see the inconsistency - the self-contradictory inconsistency in your own posts. You'd rather judge me than correct yourself. YOU were the one who brought up the white horse.

"I'm going to bring up something Josh never mentioned and then blame him for his false belief."

Matthew 7:1-5
Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

In that very same post you also said,

So, no white horse and people having a grand old time.....shouts pre-trib rapture.

The people who were taken away in the days of Noah were the ones God destroyed by the flood. It was the people left behind who went on to live in a covenant relationship with God.

Matthew 24:38-41
For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken, and one will be left.

Luke 17:26-27
And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

The those taken away were the ones destroyed, not the ones saved from the wrath of God. That is what the text actually, factually, explicitly states. Why would anyone ever read the text to say something different from what it states?

Because their man-made hermeneutic invented in the 19th century tells them to do so, that's why!

So, once again, it is obvious a new, man-made hermeneutic invented in the 19th century is unnecessary and just as self-evidently true the man-made hermeneutic is unnecessary AND it leads to chronic abuses of scripture. Depsite the current protest, the fact is YOU brought up the white horse AND asserted the second coming on a white horse as a pretribulation rapture-related event even though scripture never says he leaves heaven.

The above statement isn't true....so why do you continue to use it?

It is not untrue and the reason I continue to belabor the point is because you keep posting claims nowhere found in scripture...... AND avoiding finishing any of these matters. Not only am I still waiting on you to provide a scripture that explicitly states the white horse riding Jesus of Revelation 19 leaves heaven, I'm also waiting on you to tell us what it would take from us to persuade you because if nothing will persuade you then you're an ideologue and your participation in this discussion is disingenuous.

As pointed out...when the rapture occurs people will be getting married, eating, drinking...having a grand old time. Seriously, does this sound like the end of the tribulation? Of course not...and you know it.

No, I do not know it. It is, imo, an insane interpretation of scripture that not only denies what scripture actually states, it also denies the facts of human history. People have always gotten married. There has never been a tribulation in human history in which people didn't get married. Do you think people stopped getting married because of a little rain? Humans are amazingly resilient, especially in their depravity and the practice of evil. I have no doubt people got married in houses, platforms on stilts, knee deep in water or on boats all the way up to the day they finally realized it was too late.

Every single scripture you mention is one in which you change what it states. None of us should have to point this out because it something you and every single one of us should be mindful of. If you NOW do not believe Jesus leaves to rapture the elect riding on a white horse then correct your own posts and stop blaming me for your mistakes.

Otherwise, I am still waiting on scripture explicitly stating the white horse riding Jesus leaves heaven. When John saw Jesus on the white horse Jesus was in heaven. YOU say he left. Where does scripture state he leaves?

 

[Josheb]

Specifically? I agree there is no "specific verse" BUT....when you read the text you find out it is what the bible proclaims.

No, that is NOT what the Bible proclaims.

Specifically? I agree there is no "specific verse" BUT....

There is not "But...." There is what scripture states and what it does not state, and it has taken several posts to finally come out and post the actual fact of scripture.

I agree there is no "specific verse"

That is correct. There is no such verse.

Period.

Now we have agreement. You see, it is not hard to find agreement with me when we stick to what is stated . Scripture NEVER states the white horse riding Jesus leaves heaven. The question then becomes.....

Why do you believe something that is nowhere stated in scripture?

The answer is, "Because the man-made hermeneutic invented in the 19th century tells me to do so."

"No, Josh, that is not true, I believe something not stated in scripture because...

11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse!

15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations,
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army

.....because I cut up scripture and use particular verses selectively ignoring what is stated and ignoring where scripture is silent, and I infer things inconsistent with the whole.

It doesn't sound like the white horse and the rider stay in some heavenly paddock.

Nice red herring. Stay on topic. No, it does not sound like he's riding in a heavenly paddock but that is a red herring no one has every asserted ever; a red herring used to avoid the fact nothing in the entire chapter states Jesus left heaven.

You ADD that to the text!

Revelation 22:18-19
I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Do not add anything to the book. Do not add a heaven leaving Jesus to the book if the book does not state he leaves .

AND when hearing ANY preacher add to the book, ignore that preacher. That preacher is cursed . Don't be cursed with him.






Let me take a moment to commend something just done: The question asked was finally answered! Well done. Now we can move on to the next salient matter (why something never stated is believed). It is not commendable that it took so long to answer what should have been an easily provided, readily provided, immediately provided but I will take what I can get and it was good of you to finally answer the question asked.


Now tell me why it is you believe the selected verses of Revelation 19:11, 15, and 19 say he leaves when that is not what they actually state? Why believe something nowhere stated in the entire chapter? The facts of the book of Revelation as a whole is that Jesus commands events on earth from heaven. That happens over and over and over again and again throughout the book of Revelation and the book itself does not explicitly report him leaving heaven until chapter 21. Those are the facts of what is stated, and I can actually prove it with explicit statements in Revelation. So why do you - someone who presumably claims to rely on God's word as the preeminent arbiter of truth and the measure of all human doctrines - why is what is literally, explicitly stated not believed and added inferences not actually supported by the verses you yourself select (I've attended to the texts YOU chose) are believed? I'm going to ask the question again and hope it won't take several posts to finally get an answer, that an answer the specific question asked will come directly, immediately, and without delay or added diversion. More simply put.....


Why do you believe something not actually stated?
.

 

[Josheb]

lame? It appears to be YOU who is claiming Jesus ascended on a white horse. (Acts 1)

Can you prove that?

I can but I will not be entertaining the attempts to shift the onus away from your own claims about scripture. I know how to attend to a conversation with focus and take responsibility for my own content. The silence of scripture pertaining to Jesus white-horse-riding departure has been acknowledged and that acknowledgement I commended. I have done my part.


Now tell me why it is you believe something not actually stated in the text you cite? IN other words, how is you can cite a text that does not state what it is made to say and what t was made to say is believed over what it explicitly states (and doesn't state), especially in a book we are warned not to embellish? I could ask why what is stated is not believed exactly as written, but I've asked the question this way on purpose because I want you to think about how and why you do what you've done and do so in a sincere, honest way and then tell me (and everything else the answer to that specific question. Some other poster might have a different answer to the exact same question.

Chapter 19 does NOT state Jesus leaves on the white horse. Why do you believe something not actually explicitly stated?

.

 

[CrowCross]

You were the one who brought up the white hose. You were the one connecting Revelation 19 to the rapture. I did not put that on your posts. Post 62 states,

Wrong...I never associated Rev 19 with the rapture. Thing is, you have.

That post places Christ's second coming, riding on a white horse prior to the tribulation. Post 68 states the following...

Onca again ...wrong. The white horse event is at the end of the trib.

Now that we got that straight.....are you ready to move on and show how Jesus left on a white horse....and don't forget the weddings and people having a grand time at the end of the trib.

 

[CrowCross]

Now tell me why it is you believe something not actually stated in the text you cite?

It was presented in post 82.

When will you show Jesus left on a white horse and weddings are at the end of the tribulation?

 

[Josheb]

Wrong...I never associated Rev 19 with the rapture.

The posts prove otherwise.

When will you show Jesus left on a white horse and weddings are at the end of the tribulation?

When you answer the question why it is you believe something nowhere stated in scripture.




@CrowCross,

While we're having this conversation, give the book of Revelation a read. Take the time to read it again from beginning to end. Do two things for the benefit of the conversation. First, try to read it exactly as written. The book is filled with OT references and imagery and a variety of things that cannot be taken literally (like stars falling to earth) but try to read it as written. Second, and this is the part germane to our particular conversation, count the number of times "earth" is mentioned and from those 79 mentions (I checked) note which ones explicitly state Jesus is on earth or coming to earth. Do not read his leaving and coming into the text. Let the text speak for itself, even in silence. Gather the information so we can continue. I gotta go and probably won't be back until this evening. Let me know if and when you've read the whole book.

 

[CrowCross]

The posts prove otherwise.

When you answer the question why it is you believe something nowhere stated in scripture.




@CrowCross,

While we're having this conversation, give the book of Revelation a read. Take the time to read it again from beginning to end. Do two things for the benefit of the conversation. First, try to read it exactly as written. The book is filled with OT references and imagery and a variety of things that cannot be taken literally (like stars falling to earth) but try to read it as written. Second, and this is the part germane to our particular conversation, count the number of times "earth" is mentioned and from those 79 mentions (I checked) note which ones explicitly state Jesus is on earth or coming to earth. Do not read his leaving and coming into the text. Let the text speak for itself, even in silence. Gather the information so we can continue. I gotta go and probably won't be back until this evening. Let me know if and when you've read the whole book.

Let me say it again Josheb....Jesus didn't leave on a white horse and I doubt there will be happy weddings at the end of the trib.

Just for the record, when Jesus hops down off of the white horse....the Mt. of Olives splits.

 

[3 Resurrections]

An example would be Revelation 8....
6 And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

8 Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

The above has not happened yet.

Yes, they have happened, according to John who said those revealed prophecies of future events were "at hand", "about to be hereafter", and would "shortly come to pass" for the servants of God in the time John was writing. A third of the "earth" being burned up along with a third of trees and all the grass was speaking of "tes ges" - typically referring to the land of Israel in scripture - not the entire globe.

Remember, that destroyed grass had time to grow again before the Revelation 9:4 prophecy, where those "locusts" were forbidden to hurt the grass and the trees or any green thing.

It is the same thing when John mentioned the "sea", which was not the entirety of the oceans of the world, but a "sea" which was associated with the land of Israel which was being judged in those "days of vengeance" taking place for Judea. That second angel's trumpet concerned either the Dead Sea, the Sea of Galilee, or the Mediterranean Sea, and it took place back in John's days.

 

[Josheb]

Let me say it again Josheb....Jesus didn't leave on a white horse...

Let me say it again: Then you need to correct your own posts AND I understand you have now changed your posts but have not changed your eschatology.

and I doubt there will be happy weddings at the end of the trib.

Which has nothing to do with the rapture. The wedding and the rapture are not identical events.

This is just another in a growing number of completely irrelevant statements that serve only to demonstrate a refusal to stay on topic, a willingness to obfuscate the conversation, and prove the difficulty everyone has discussing end times with modern futurists: they won't stick to one topic when things get difficult for them.

Just for the record, when Jesus hops down off of the white horse....the Mt. of Olives splits.

I'd ask you to explain that but it's off topic. Again.



The fact is YOU brought up the white horse as rapture related and have now backed away from those to posts. No one else mentioned any white horse ever. YOU, and YOU alone did that. Then three pages of posts were wasted getting you to acknowledge what everyone else has always known: the white horse has nothing to do with the rapture and Jesus is never actually stated to leave heaven on the white horse. He is, in fact, never stated to leave heaven at all in chapters 19 and 20 of Revelation.

Modern futurists make up thatstuff.

They do so in complete denial of what is stated, and they do so in complete denial of what is not stated.

Why? Because they are working for an man-made hermeneutic invented in the 19th century they assume prior to reading scripture. If the bias is discarded then scripture is seen to state things other than what the modern futurist says it says.

You just proved that. YOU claimed Jesus left heaven on a white horse when scripture never states any such thing. Jesus is seen on the white horse in heaven, not on earth. Stop assuming he leaves when the text never states any such thing.

Question....did Jesus leave on a white horse like He returns on in Rev? I say no. If Jesus left on a white horse I think Luke would have mentioned it.

The simple conclusion...Jesus returns twice. Once near the beginning of the tribulation then a second time at the end of the tribulation.

Jesus comes back twice....once as He left during His ascension then a second time riding a white horse.

Perhaps you missed it....Christ returns twice. At the rapture the way He left....and a second time riding a white horse. That's biblical.

Christ leaving on a white horse.....a means for people to have a grand old time near the end of the tribulation. Jesus returns TWICE. Get ready for the first return.

Jesus doesn't leave heaven on a white horse to gather the elect in the rapture. That's the point....as we all know Jesus will return at the rapture in the same way in which He left....and He didn't leave riding a white horse.

It appears to be YOU who is claiming Jesus ascended on a white horse. (Acts 1)

Onca again ...wrong. The white horse event is at the end of the trib. Now that we got that straight.....are you ready to move on and show how Jesus left on a white horse....and don't forget the weddings and people having a grand time at the end of the trib

When will you show Jesus left on a white horse and weddings are at the end of the tribulation?

Let me say it again Josheb.... Jesus didn't leave on a white horse and I doubt there will be happy weddings at the end of the trib. Just for the record, when Jesus hops down off of the white horse....the Mt. of Olives splits.

Your own posts contradict themselves.


They first contradicted scripture. It took multiple pages of posts to get you to look at what is written and acknowledge what is and is not stated. In the end "Jesus didn't leave on a white horse...." contradicts the prior claims he did leave. Similarly, if the multiple-comings position is dependent upon his leaving heaven once on a white horse and it turns out he didn't leave on a white horse then..... there's no basis for saying he comes twice.

@CrowCoss: Jesus (leaves heaven and) comes twice. Once in a pretribulation rapture and again on a white horse when he comes to earth.

@Josheb: Scripture never explicitly reports Jesus leaving heaven on a white horse.

@CrowCross: Jesus didn't leave [heaven] on a white horse.

@Josheb: Then Jesus does not come twice.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes, they have happened, according to John who said those revealed prophecies of future events were "at hand", "about to be hereafter", and would "shortly come to pass" for the servants of God in the time John was writing. A third of the "earth" being burned up along with a third of trees and all the grass was speaking of "tes ges" - typically referring to the land of Israel in scripture - not the entire globe.

When one reads the account presented in Revelations it is pretty clear to me John was writing about the entire world.
In Rev 3:10 we can see this when John uses the words "world" and "earth".

Remember, that destroyed grass had time to grow again before the Revelation 9:4 prophecy, where those "locusts" were forbidden to hurt the grass and the trees or any green thing.

Are you saying it couldn't mean what's left of the grass? The other 2/3rds.

It is the same thing when John mentioned the "sea", which was not the entirety of the oceans of the world, but a "sea" which was associated with the land of Israel which was being judged in those "days of vengeance" taking place for Judea. That second angel's trumpet concerned either the Dead Sea, the Sea of Galilee, or the Mediterranean Sea, and it took place back in John's days.

Other verses points to it being world wide...here's an example...15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.

Shortly after the event we see ......13And as I observed, I heard an eagle flying overhead, calling in a loud voice, “Woe! Woe! Woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the remaining three angels!”

If John meant only Israel as you claim why didn't he say that?

 

[CrowCross]

Let me say it again: Then you need to correct your own posts AND I understand you have now changed your posts but have not changed your eschatology.

Which has nothing to do with the rapture. The wedding and the rapture are not identical events.

This is just another in a growing number of completely irrelevant statements that serve only to demonstrate a refusal to stay on topic, a willingness to obfuscate the conversation, and prove the difficulty everyone has discussing end times with modern futurists: they won't stick to one topic when things get difficult for them.

I'd ask you to explain that but it's off topic. Again.



The fact is YOU brought up the white horse as rapture related and have now backed away from those to posts. No one else mentioned any white horse ever. YOU, and YOU alone did that. Then three pages of posts were wasted getting you to acknowledge what everyone else has always known: the white horse has nothing to do with the rapture and Jesus is never actually stated to leave heaven on the white horse. He is, in fact, never stated to leave heaven at all in chapters 19 and 20 of Revelation.

Modern futurists make up thatstuff.

They do so in complete denial of what is stated, and they do so in complete denial of what is not stated.

Why? Because they are working for an man-made hermeneutic invented in the 19th century they assume prior to reading scripture. If the bias is discarded then scripture is seen to state things other than what the modern futurist says it says.

You just proved that. YOU claimed Jesus left heaven on a white horse when scripture never states any such thing. Jesus is seen on the white horse in heaven, not on earth. Stop assuming he leaves when the text never states any such thing.









Your own posts contradict themselves.


They first contradicted scripture. It took multiple pages of posts to get you to look at what is written and acknowledge what is and is not stated. In the end "Jesus didn't leave on a white horse...." contradicts the prior claims he did leave. Similarly, if the multiple-comings position is dependent upon his leaving heaven once on a white horse and it turns out he didn't leave on a white horse then..... there's no basis for saying he comes twice.

@CrowCoss: Jesus (leaves heaven and) comes twice. Once in a pretribulation rapture and again on a white horse when he comes to earth.

@Josheb: Scripture never explicitly reports Jesus leaving heaven on a white horse.

@CrowCross: Jesus didn't leave [heaven] on a white horse.

@Josheb: Then Jesus does not come twice.

Wow!!! Now you have really twisted my words. Should i expect more of that from you?

My point is that Jesus returns twice...first time at the pre-trib rapture then the second time as a conqueror.

 

[Josheb]

Wow!!! Now you have really twisted my words.

Completely not true. I posted your words from your posts exactly as posted. If you see problems in your own statements, it is because you made them that way, not because I "twisted" anything. When shown the inconsistency within your own words, ad hominem ensued.

Should i expect more of that from you?

You should expect me to hold you to your own posts.

My point is that Jesus returns twice...first time at the pre-trib rapture then the second time as a conqueror.

Which proves to be untrue if Jesus does not leave heaven riding a white horse as one of his departures. You are NOT dealing with the facts in evidence.

Jesus is not reported leaving heaven on the white horse!​

You said otherwise. You counted that departure among one of his two comings.
.
.

Question....did Jesus leave on a white horse like He returns on in Rev? I say no. If Jesus left on a white horse I think Luke would have mentioned it. The simple conclusion...Jesus returns twice. Once near the beginning of the tribulation then a second time at the end of the tribulation.

If Jesus never leaves on the white horse then there are not two returns.

Jesus comes back twice....once as He left during His ascension then a second time riding a white horse.

If Jesus never leaves on the white horse then there are not two returns.

Perhaps you missed it....Christ returns twice. At the rapture the way He left....and a second time riding a white horse. That's biblical.

If Jesus never leaves on the white horse then there are not two returns, and your view is NOT biblical.

Christ leaving on a white horse.....a means for people to have a grand old time near the end of the tribulation. Jesus returns TWICE. Get ready for the first return.

If Jesus never leaves on the white horse then there are not two returns.

Let me say it again Josheb.... Jesus didn't leave on a white horse.....

Jesus was explicitly stated to leave on a white horse in four prior posts. I did not "twist" anything. Scripture never explicitly reports Jesus leaving heaven on a white horse. You have argued he does leave on a white horse and his departure from heaven on a white horse is one of the two comings. If Jesus does not leave on a white horse, then his coming on a white horse - one of the two comings only modern futurism asserts - never happens. Your posts contradict scripture, and they contradict themselves.


Do not blame me with false accusations of twisting your words.

 

[3 Resurrections]

When one reads the account presented in Revelations it is pretty clear to me John was writing about the entire world.
In Rev 3:10 we can see this when John uses the words "world" and "earth".

Sure, I agree that some of the disasters listed in Christ's Olivet Discourse would be shared by the entire world at large (wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes in divers places, famines, pestilences). Paul also gave the same warning in Acts 17:31 to those on Mars Hill that all men everywhere were commanded to repent because God was "about to judge the world" in righteousness by Christ.

But the specific conditions of the period of "Great Tribulation" would be coming on the land of Judea, and Jerusalem in particular. That is why Christ warned His disciples to flee from Judea and Jerusalem and head to the mountains when the beginning of that Great Tribulation and its "days of vengeance" began with Jerusalem surrounded by armies (Luke 21:20-24). There would be "great distress in THE LAND (tes ges), and wrath upon THIS people", meaning in Judea and specifically on the ethnic Israelite people who had been the "betrayers and murderers" of Christ. These people would be led captive into all the nations, with Jerusalem being trodden down.

"This people" being led captive into all the other nations tells us that the judgments during these "days of vengeance" were concentrated on Judea and its people alone, being sent as prisoners into all the nations of the world at the close of the war in Jerusalem - which did happen to Jerusalem's captured 97,000 at the end.

The seven trumpet judgments were given as a prophecy leading to those "days of vengeance" on the land of Judea and the ethnic Israelites. The grass, the sea, the hail, fire, and blood were referring to disasters taking place in that specific location of the world. The "locusts" of Rev. 9 were also a judgment upon the land of Israel at a specific five-month period of time (the summer period in Israel of five months from Passover to Pentecost in AD 66 when governor Gessius Florus and his Roman troops tormented the ethnic Israelites by their oppressive treatment, goading them into rebellion).

Other verses points to it being world wide...here's an example...15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.

This quote in Revelation 6:15 describing the "kings of the earth" was speaking of the high priests of the land of Israel. This is a specific term scripture uses to describe the high priesthood role - not ordinary monarchs of the nations of the world. Judea (and particularly Jerusalem) is well known for having caves in the mountains - natural or excavated tunnel networks - which were used as cisterns, or for protection, or for caches of supplies for war. Those caves and tunnel networks in the mountains of Jerusalem were recorded as being used by those trying to evade the Roman troops in Jerusalem during AD 70 at the last of the war - notably Simon ben Giora and his Zealot warriors.

Are you saying it couldn't mean what's left of the grass? The other 2/3rds.

No, Revelation 8:7 says that "ALL green grass was burnt up" at that point - in that particular region - not the entire globe. But it had time to grow again by Revelation 9:4 when the "locusts" were commanded not to hurt the grass of the earth ("tes ges" - the land of Israel).

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus is not reported leaving heaven on the white horse!

YES HE IS. I already showed you.

Do you think He's just trotting around heaven on this horse?

Comr back and get back into the discussion when you have something

 

[CrowCross]

Sure, I agree that some of the disasters listed in Christ's Olivet Discourse would be shared by the entire world at large

i'm happy to hear you accept that.

The grass, the sea, the hail, fire, and blood were referring to disasters taking place in that specific location of the world.

These disasters have not happened yet.....until you have the ability to move pst that point...you will remain stuck in the past....completely ignorant of whats to come.

This quote in Revelation 6:15 describing the "kings of the earth" was speaking of the high priests of the land of Israel.

Sheeze, everything for you guys has a "secret" meaning and unless we have your secret decoder ring...we'll never understand Revelation.

 

[Josheb]

YES HE IS. I already showed you.

No, you did not. I was shown how you readin Jesus' leaving into scripture. I was not shown scripture stating Jesus leaves. BIG difference.

Do you think He's just trotting around heaven on this horse?

What I think it immaterial. YOU are the who is supposed to be proving YOUR claim. I could ass ert a better, or a worst alternative, but that would not necessarily mean your view was incorrect or correct. The onus is on you. The onus is on you and you alone. The onus is you and you alone to prove your view correct.

And in this particular case, you do not have a single verse explicitly stating Jesus leaves the heavens on a white horse. That premise is assumed, not proven.

Come back and get back into the discussion when you have something.

I am not the one making baseless claims. You are. You come back to the discussion when you can show Jesus leaving the heavens on a white horse with scripture, and not a man0made hermeneutic invented in the 19th century.


Look at the chart in the next post. You will see that ONLY Premillennial Dispensationalism, or more generically "modern futurism," holds to the notion of a separated rapture. No one else in Christendom has held to that position. If what the modern futurist believes is correct, then all the rest of Christendom has been wrong. All the Christians from the New Testament writers all the way through all the centuries all the way up to modernity and this minute right here and now have been wrong. Every Christian has been wrong, and only those Christians who subscribe to a man-made hermeneutic invented in the 19th century are correct.

 

[Josheb]

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/%E2%80%9Cthe-kingdom-age%E2%80%9D.1547/#post-63643

Third row down: Do the rapture and the second coming occur at the same time? Dispensationalism says "No." Historicism, Amillennialism, and Postmillennialism all agree with each other on this point and say, "Yes."




So, you come back to the discussion when you can prove Jesus leaves heaven on a white horse with something other than inferential eisegesis, rhetorical questions, shifting onuses and sophistry.

 

[CrowCross]

No, you did not. I was shown how you readin Jesus' leaving into scripture. I was not shown scripture stating Jesus leaves. BIG difference.

Dude, the following verses show Jesus on earth...

What I think it immaterial.

True.