False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[Arial]

Then why do you think John was given a vision of the New Jerusalem prepared as a bride for her husband? That was a wedding feast "marriage supper of the Lamb" prepared for the saints.

Did you watch the video to know what was being discussed? Sproul was relating the ascension with the victory. The so called pre-trib rapture of the saints has not been adequately proven. It is only a presumption and it is based on a couple of scriptures. Add to that the dispensationalist view of the OT that is highly inaccurate when compared to what the Bible says will happen, and those things that have happened, of national Israel separated from the NT view of the dividing wall torn down in salvation; then interpreting all eschatological events in that light, and you have a very distorted gospel.

I confess that I slightly misstated the actual rapture as not being a wedding, leaving it open to misinterpreting my words, but even so, it does not place this as a pre-trib event or the tribulation as a specific seven year event. 1 Thes 4:13-18 is in no way dating or identifying either of those things, but is dealing with doubts the church was having concerning the promised resurrection due to false teaching. It is not stating two second comings, or a partial coming and then a full coming. And the new Jerusalem of Rev 21, adorned as a bridegroom is not a feast but a consummation of the victory. Those who remain alive at His second coming meet Him in the air as He is descending and return with Him, His victorious entourage who He redeemed at the cross. At the ascension He took captives and received gifts from the captives. He distributes those gifts to His church now, at His return, those He rescued follow in His train with shouts of joy and worship.

You of course are free to view it any way you want. You are not free to tell everyone else they should view it your way. And I will not be pulled further into the discussion.

 

[CrowCross]

Fortunately, none of us are eternally saved by our level of knowledge of historical events, or even of our level of knowledge of the scriptures.

I agree. Then again the bible does tell of future events.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Then again the bible does tell of future events.

I agree with this too. Those future events John was told to write down were of "those things which are ABOUT TO BE hereafter" (Rev. 1:19). John's own first-century generation was soon to experience the disasters laid out in Revelation, and the churches were being urged to remain faithful during those times of suffering coming up for them.

The only distant future prophesies in Revelation that would apply directly to us were the prophecies given by the seven thunders in Rev. 10:4 which John was not allowed to write down, but that were sealed up for times AFTER AD 70. These sealed up prophecies would include you and me and our future, up to the final bodily resurrection and judgment for mankind.

 

[CrowCross]

I agree with this too. Those future events John was told to write down were of "those things which are ABOUT TO BE hereafter" (Rev. 1:19). John's own first-century generation was soon to experience the disasters laid out in Revelation, and the churches were being urged to remain faithful during those times of suffering coming up for them.

Look....we've talked about this before...I gave you a list of events described in Revelation that have not come to fruition.
You pretty much turned a deaf ear to them then went about your same old business.

Debating someone who can't show me where the events occured yet still claim they did...is futile.

The only distant future prophesies in Revelation that would apply directly to us were the prophecies given by the seven thunders in Rev. 10:4 which John was not allowed to write down, but that were sealed up for times AFTER AD 70. These sealed up prophecies would include you and me and our future, up to the final bodily resurrection and judgment for mankind.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Look....we've talked about this before...I gave you a list of events described in Revelation that have not come to fruition.
You pretty much turned a deaf ear to them then went about your same old business.

Debating someone who can't show me where the events occured yet still claim they did...is futile.

If John wrote that those visions of events in the future were "ABOUT TO BE hereafter", why would I believe a statement saying that these things had not been fulfilled yet, and were in my future? Given a choice between opposing statements of John and yourself, I would have to go with John's statement that they were "about to be hereafter" in his own first-century days.

Actually, it's not necessary for me to prove anything when this Rev. 1:19 statement of John's tells us the timing for Revelation's revealed prophecies, imminent for John's readers of that time.

 

[CrowCross]

If John wrote that those visions of events in the future were "ABOUT TO BE hereafter", why would I believe a statement saying that these things had not been fulfilled yet, and were in my future? Given a choice between opposing statements of John and yourself, I would have to go with John's statement that they were "about to be hereafter" in his own first-century days.

Actually, it's not necessary for me to prove anything when this Rev. 1:19 statement of John's tells us the timing for Revelation's revealed prophecies, imminent for John's readers of that time.

Once again....I have presented you with a list that shows several verses that have not been fulfilled. Would you like a second list?

 

[Mr GLee]

I agree. Then again the bible does tell of future events.

Yes we have prophecy sealed up til the end of time . No signs were given as to the day , year or hour (no need to those who walk by faith the unseen eternal things of our Holy Father

Jesus said natural uncovered mankind seeks after signs the temporal things seen and not the invisible things of God's power or faith rather than prophecy they disobeyed the loving command not to add or subtract from the perfect The oral traditions' of dying mankind making prophecy without effect. Same battle that began the fall, Did God really say? Why believe in a God not seen look at my beauty and live forever .Sssssssss

 

[3 Resurrections]

Once again....I have presented you with a list that shows several verses that have not been fulfilled. Would you like a second list?

It doesn't matter what is put on any kind of list. JOHN wrote in Rev. 1:19 that Revelation's prophecies regarding future events concerned "things that are ABOUT TO BE hereafter" in the time frame he wrote that statement. That means whatever you think has not been fulfilled yet today is a moot point. I believe John rather than anyone else's assumptions.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes we have prophecy sealed up til the end of time . No signs were given as to the day , year or hour (no need to those who walk by faith the unseen eternal things of our Holy Father

Then why did Jesus give signs?

Jesus said natural uncovered mankind seeks after signs the temporal things seen and not the invisible things of God's power or faith rather than prophecy they disobeyed the loving command not to add or subtract from the perfect The oral traditions' of dying mankind making prophecy without effect. Same battle that began the fall, Did God really say? Why believe in a God not seen look at my beauty and live forever .Sssssssss

 

[CrowCross]

It doesn't matter what is put on any kind of list. JOHN wrote in Rev. 1:19 that Revelation's prophecies regarding future events concerned "things that are ABOUT TO BE hereafter" in the time frame he wrote that statement. That means whatever you think has not been fulfilled yet today is a moot point. I believe John rather than anyone else's assumptions.

I looked up 3195. melló....and it doesn't seem to agree with what you have been told and believe.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I looked up 3195. melló....and it doesn't seem to agree with what you have been told and believe.

The "mello" term is not the only time-relevant language John used. John wrote in both his introduction (Rev. 1:3) and in his conclusion (Rev. 22:10) that the time for the prophecies of future things being unsealed in Revelation was "at hand". This means more than the prophecies were coming soon. The words "at hand" meant that the time was presently in place as John was writing when the progression of those future prophecies had started their fulfillment.

This isn't just a dictionary definition of what "at hand" means. God defined this "at hand" term for prophecies in Ezekiel 12:21-28. When God refers to a prophecy being "at hand", it is not "prolonged" into "times that are far off". God both speaks the "at hand" prophecy and also performs it "in your days" for the ones first receiving that prophecy.

Above all, I believe God's and John's terminology about the timing for Revelation's content coming to pass.

 

[CrowCross]

The "mello" term is not the only time-relevant language John used. John wrote in both his introduction (Rev. 1:3) and in his conclusion (Rev. 22:10) that the time for the prophecies of future things being unsealed in Revelation was "at hand". This means more than the prophecies were coming soon. The words "at hand" meant that the time was presently in place as John was writing when the progression of those future prophecies had started their fulfillment.

This isn't just a dictionary definition of what "at hand" means. God defined this "at hand" term for prophecies in Ezekiel 12:21-28. When God refers to a prophecy being "at hand", it is not "prolonged" into "times that are far off". God both speaks the "at hand" prophecy and also performs it "in your days" for the ones first receiving that prophecy.

Above all, I believe God's and John's terminology about the timing for Revelation's content coming to pass.

I'm going to keep saying it....why can I point to many verses that talk of things that still haven't happened?

When will you answer that question?

 

[3 Resurrections]

I'm going to keep saying it....why can I point to many verses that talk of things that still haven't happened?

When will you answer that question?

Your question is irrelevant. You are setting up your own personal perceptions of what you think hasn't happened yet against the word of John who said those prophecies were "shortly to come to pass" for God's servants in the days John was writing Revelation (Rev. 1:1) Those prophecies were "at hand" (Rev. 1:3 and 22:10), and were "about to be hereafter" for John's first-century readers (Rev. 1:19). There are also many other texts in Revelation describing events that were also said to be "about to" happen - in John's days.

Just how many of these time-relevant phrases and terms of imminence do you need to get the point that these unsealed prophecies were timed for John's immediate audience, and not 2,000-plus years down the road?

Your challenge opposing John's time-relevant language is the equivalent of saying, "Yea, hath God said...?"

 

[Mr GLee]

Then why did Jesus give signs?

Signs were given to the unbelievers that have no faith as it is writen in the law and prophets they had no belief in a invisible head .

Believers cannot add to it or subtract from the prefect as it is written .We have prophecy (sola scriptura) till the end of time.

Satan the king of lying signs to wonder after is still daily bringing the oral traditions of dying mankind to wonder after . . its hs only voice wonder after wonders do not trust prophecy as it is written

God continues to send a strong delusion so that men can seek after lying wonders rather than sola scriptura, the living word.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-10King James Version8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:1 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

When it comes to the end times. No sign was given to wonder after . a couple of examples . One in Exodus the believers knew the promise of scripture 430 years later would come to pass. Satan used lying wonders to try and draw mankind away from sola scriptura. God duplicated and his rod swallowed up the serpent lies the father of lies. In the same way God sent a Ass to represent a unbelievers (Balaams ) as a apostle sent with the word of God to rebuke the lying spirits of signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after . It stopped the madness of that false apostle. Again believers have prophecy the true vision, not earthly inspired of the father of lies

It's why I think Jesus the prophet was given words from his Father revealing the most wonderful miracle "a man can be born again" and be given a new spirit that will never die, Then lovingly commanding Nicodemus wonder or marvel not. wondering is wondering, or what some call Limbo or purgatory .

Nicodemus stopped wondering and began believing the invisible head . .Christ in us.

The use of signs to wonder after as to the value can also be seen during the first part of the three part, three day and nights demonstration. It as two witnesses was prophesied of in the Old testament (Genesis 3:15 Isaiah 53 ) The garden of Gethsemane where promised work of the two began. The Father striking the Son of man Jesus , bruised his heel crushing the head of the serpent.

Three time suffering unto death (not dead, God cannot die. ) Three times suffering Jesus the Son of man awoke the disciples looking for strength in prayer . Three times the Father put them back to sleep in order to fulfil the prophecy of the work of two empowered by one

Then they moved from the valley to the hill of skull or hill of shame. The bloody demonstration as ceremonial sign (shadow) to the whole world . Giving the idea it was the Satan inspired crowd that caused him to suffer unto death. And not the fulfilled prophecy "two working as one " the dynamic duo .

Both kinds of demonstrations were needed to show the valueless of signs compared to prophecy. Then they moved to the third part the tomb, the demonstration of faith (the unseen working of the two ) then the father removed the grave clothes and rolled back the stone Finishing his labor of Love or called a work of his faithfulness . Let it be and it was God alone good

No signs were given. A mark (666) yes! . Mark of the living word whatsoever God says comes to pass

Cain choosing the easy way out suicide ny law enforcement Murders have no bargaining power .


Genesis 4: 13-15 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Again the mark whatsoever he says comes to pass, no easy way out suffer, suffer, stuffer .

Able yoked with Christ his sufferings was made lighter with a living hope beyond the grave Cain the restless wanderer . . no gospel rest
.

 

[CrowCross]

Your question is irrelevant. You are setting up your own personal perceptions of what you think hasn't happened yet against the word of John who said those prophecies were "shortly to come to pass" for God's servants in the days John was writing Revelation (Rev. 1:1) Those prophecies were "at hand" (Rev. 1:3 and 22:10), and were "about to be hereafter" for John's first-century readers (Rev. 1:19). There are also many other texts in Revelation describing events that were also said to be "about to" happen - in John's days.

Just how many of these time-relevant phrases and terms of imminence do you need to get the point that these unsealed prophecies were timed for John's immediate audience, and not 2,000-plus years down the road?

Your challenge opposing John's time-relevant language is the equivalent of saying, "Yea, hath God said...?"

If you want to look at it that way...go ahead....as to what is written in Revelation, it's still future.

Now, "shortly to come to pass"...uses the word "5034. tachos" from which we get our english word tachometer where we can see what the RPM's an engine is turning at. A concept of "quickness" of an event seems to be implied here rather than how much time will pass before an event happens. Once again we know it's not in reference to the passage of time before an event happens because what is written of in Revelation hasn't happened yet.

An example would be Revelation 8....
6 And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

8 Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

The above has not happened yet.
Your interpretation of "John's time-relevant language" seems to have major flaws that you now need to answer.

 

[CrowCross]

Signs were given to the unbelievers that have no faith as it is writen in the law and prophets they had no belief in a invisible head .

Your reasoning was lost from your very first sentence...

Matt 28:3 While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

The disciples believed...and asked the question you said only non-believers ask. They asked "what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?"

 

[Mr GLee]

Your reasoning was lost from your very first sentence...

Matt 28:3 While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

The disciples believed...and asked the question you said only non-believers ask. They asked "what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?"

Yes your way of reasoning was lost from my first sentence We reason as it is written and he said no sign were given it's a evil generation non converted mankind that says "out of sight out of of mind" . . . . . . ."what you see is what you get" hit the road Jack . or why would anyone choose to believe a god they can't see.????What planet are they from??? LOL

The last sign, the sign of Jonas was finished it demonstrated by the work of our father in the Son of man jesus

Believer have prophecy no need to wonder, wonder, wonder, marvel. limbo limbo .

Matthew 12:38-40King James Version38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes your way of reasoning was lost from my first sentence We reason as it is written and he said no sign were given it's a evil generation non converted mankind that says "out of sight out of of mind" . . . . . . ."what you see is what you get" hit the road Jack . or why would anyone choose to believe a god they can't see.????What planet are they from??? LOL

The last sign, the sign of Jonas was finished it demonstrated by the work of our father in the Son of man jesus

Believer have prophecy no need to wonder, wonder, wonder, marvel. limbo limbo .

Matthew 12:38-40King James Version38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Somewhere in history there will be the "Revelation" generation. When I look at the current 'signs"...it looks like we're it.
Now, I could be wrong...but there is a lot of events, science, and technology and so on that is aligning up with biblical scenarios.

 

[Josheb]

I'm going to keep saying it....why can I point to many verses that talk of things that still haven't happened?

Modern futurists interpret predictions one way and then say, "It hasn't yet happened so our view is correct," but that is begging-the-question-eschatology. What they are really saying is, "The predictions did not yet happen the way we interpret the predictions will occur so our views is correct." It gets even worse when it is realized the only reason the predictions are interpreted the way they are interpreted is because pre-existing biases in the hermeneutic through which scripture is rendered. If that hermeneutic is discarded, then there is absolutely no basis for interpreting the predictions as they do. So, the actual meaning of "Why can I point to many verses that talk of things that still haven't happened?" is.....

Why can I point to many verses my pre-existing prejudices interpret to talk of things that the question-begging, self-validating view says still haven't happened to justify a post hoc argument?

And the answer to that question is because the entire model is a work of fiction that creates fantasies to which no one in their right mind can point!

When will you answer that question?

Forgive me, @3 Resurrections, for stepping on your proverbial toes and interrupting but now, @CrowCross, you have the answer to the question asked.



Everyone else reads scripture differently than the modern futurist. They do not have this problem of "When did it happened?" as an unanswerable defense. They do not invent views not stated in scripture (like the rapture separated from the second coming) and then ask people why their inventions can't be answered because the inventions haven't occurred. Many of them trust God when He says, "X happened," even if how and when X happened isn't understood. The modern futurist has to re-interpret the "X happened," to mean "X will happens when the time comes," in violation of their own hermeneutic (which requires a literal reading of prophecy). The fact is many here could answer some of the "When did it happen?" questions but the response would be, "Nunh unh, that's not what it means." The only reason the modern futurists say another model's view is incorrect is because it does not fit the modern futurists model. It could fit scripture perfectly, but its veracity will be denied because it does not fit with modern futurism.

• prejudiced, eisegetic reading of scripture
• question-begging defenses
• red herring defenses
• subordinates scripture to history
• denial of explicit scripture
• man-made inventions
• denial accurate exegesis
• post hoc self-validation

The question, "Why can I point to many verses that talk of things that still haven't happened?" simply points out the problem with the model prompting the inquiry. It is a bad eschatology.

 

[CrowCross]

Modern futurists interpret predictions one way and then say, "It hasn't yet happened so our view is correct," but that is begging-the-question-eschatology. What they are really saying is, "The predictions did not yet happen the way we interpret the predictions will occur so our views is correct." It gets even worse when it is realized the only reason the predictions are interpreted the way they are interpreted is because pre-existing biases in the hermeneutic through which scripture is rendered. If that hermeneutic is discarded, then there is absolutely no basis for interpreting the predictions as they do. So, the actual meaning of "Why can I point to many verses that talk of things that still haven't happened?" is.....

Why can I point to many verses my pre-existing prejudices interpret to talk of things that the question-begging, self-validating view says still haven't happened to justify a post hoc argument?

And the answer to that question is because the entire model is a work of fiction that creates fantasies to which no one in their right mind can point!

Forgive me, @3 Resurrections, for stepping on your proverbial toes and interrupting but now, @CrowCross, you have the answer to the question asked.



Everyone else reads scripture differently than the modern futurist. They do not have this problem of "When did it happened?" as an unanswerable defense. They do not invent views not stated in scripture (like the rapture separated from the second coming) and then ask people why their inventions can't be answered because the inventions haven't occurred. Many of them trust God when He says, "X happened," even if how and when X happened isn't understood. The modern futurist has to re-interpret the "X happened," to mean "X will happens when the time comes," in violation of their own hermeneutic (which requires a literal reading of prophecy). The fact is many here could answer some of the "When did it happen?" questions but the response would be, "Nunh unh, that's not what it means." The only reason the modern futurists say another model's view is incorrect is because it does not fit the modern futurists model. It could fit scripture perfectly, but its veracity will be denied because it does not fit with modern futurism.

• prejudiced, eisegetic reading of scripture
• question-begging defenses
• red herring defenses
• subordinates scripture to history
• denial of explicit scripture
• man-made inventions
• denial accurate exegesis
• post hoc self-validation

The question, "Why can I point to many verses that talk of things that still haven't happened?" simply points out the problem with the model prompting the inquiry. It is a bad eschatology.

It is true when I look at scripture I try to figure out what's going to happen using current events, technology and so on.
What is the "great mountain burning with fire"??? Who knows. I can make a guess. What I do know is that in the last 2,000 years this event has not happened. It is still future along with the other events mentioned in Revelation.