Do believers have visions and dreams today?

[Wordsmith]

It's okay wordsmith. Yes everything you say is true but there also have been a lot of crazy charismatic abuses so I understand completely people's reticence and skepticism and concern (and they are right to have it and need to test the spirits and be discerning!). Let's just pray for each other. As you know it's not about miracles or experiencing gifts or healings or visions. We don't chase after that we 'chase' after God. I know all believers of every denomination want the same thing: 'God with us'. And we can intercede and pray for each other on others' behalf that God's will be done on such things. My prayer for everyone is simply to love, pray, worship God, read and study His Word and just make yourself available to Him to be used however He wants and determines for His glory alone for the building up of the Body of Christ.

Words of wisdom. Thank you!

 

[TB2]

Sorry about that..... In my background I had some close relatives that made their emotions their first priority.
They alienated other family members in the process. I tried reasoning to no avail... and with great frustration
found myself needing to avoid them as other family members also found themselves doing. They were heavy
into tongues... So, I try to avoid such discussions now.

Sorry to hear that. Yes, you're right. We absolutely need to be discerning. Tongues is NOT ecstatic out of control "possessed" by the Spirit, unbridled emotion. I would have concerns about that and question whether such a thing is actually from God too!!! All things must be done for the glory of God and for the building up of the Body of Christ and must be done orderly and appropriately. God is not the author of confusion.

 

[TB2]

Tell that to a dying person in need of healing from God because man has done all he can do.

Tell that to anyone who has had to deal one on one with a demon possessed person.

Tell that to one seeking wisdom from God.

Tell that to one who avoided a tragedy in life because they were warned by the Holy Spirit.

It should be obvious to any believer that God place the gifts in the church to help and edify and bless His people. Why do many try so hard to remove what God has given to the body? That is the real question here.

The answer to your question is in the chapter below so sad many have eflectively removed this from their Bibles.

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

You sound very defensive (understandably because I've seen how you've been unfairly 'attacked' online), but @Carbon is asking a legitimate question and just wants to know. It's a totally completely valid question that a lot of tongues speakers don't know how to answer!!! And it's a very practical question that I would want to ask and have asked many times myself. Carbon knows all the verses but even so what's the purpose? The Bible doesn't give us much to go on so it's an understandable question and the only reason we know what we do in the Bible is because of how the gift was being abused!!

For those who wish to know more, I recommend the book the Beauty of Spiritual Language by Pastor Jack Hayford (who passed away recently, also a hymn composer, wrote the song "Majesty, worship His Majesty, unto Jesus be all glory honor and praise!")

 

[Wordsmith]

You sound very defensive

Yes I guess I did, but I was trying to answer the question.

 

[Mantis]

Okay. It's still possible for healing. God's answer is sometimes "no", no matter how long you live.

Lol seriously? Are you saying I’m lying? Actually whatever I don’t care.

 

[Mantis]

This is not true at all.
Jesus is Lord, He would not speak in the third person saying you have sinned against the Lord....

Hello TBs,
12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

The Apostles were unique. Jesus made promises to them that THEY would be guided into all truth in jn 14, 15, 16...they were

You do not have those promises

This really bothers me that you say my testimony is not true. Accusing me of lying is straight from the enemy. Have you read the book of Job? God does refer to himself in the third person.

 

[Wordsmith]

This really bothers me that you say my testimony is not true. Accusing me of lying is straight from the enemy. Have you read the book of Job? God does refer to himself in the third person.

There are some on this forum who have removed anything supernatural or miraculous from scripture and the church so they have no other way of dealing testimonies that do not fit their narrative.

 

[Mantis]

There are some on this forum who have removed anything supernatural or miraculous from scripture and the church so they have no other way of dealing testimonies that do not fit their narrative.

Ahhhh I see. To disregard someone’s experience because you have not had one is ignorant and very insulting. It is what it is.

 

[TB2]

For those who wish to know more about speaking in tongues, I recommend the book the Beauty of Spiritual Language by Pastor Jack Hayford (who passed away recently, also a hymn composer, wrote the song "Majesty, worship His Majesty, unto Jesus be all glory honor and praise!"). Jack Hayford is a very thoughtful, logical man and gives one of the most down to earth, practical treatments on the subject dispelling many of the stereotypes, myths and misunderstandings about the gift. Here is one of my favorite stories from the book (apologies if the screenshots are too small or large; for some reason they appear normal on my screen but not others'):

Jack Hayford goes on to describe the ensuing conversation and how he shared about CS Lewis and Mere Christianity, the Bible and more....

Hayford goes on to explain how he witnessed to him from there. I'll leave the rest for him to tell in his book.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Some don't have any real supernatural experience with God, even if they are "saved". Perhaps it's impossible for them to even conceive of what such a thing might be. And so instead of humbling themselves they want to tell other people that their experiences are false or hallucinations etc. That is EXACTLY what Atheists do!

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Lol seriously? Are you saying I’m lying? Actually whatever I don’t care.

No. I never mentioned anything or said you were lying. Why did you come to that conclusion?

 

[TB2]

Some don't have any real supernatural experience with God, even if they are "saved". Perhaps it's impossible for them to even conceive of what such a thing might be. And so instead of humbling themselves they want to tell other people that their experiences are false or hallucinations etc. That is EXACTLY what Atheists do!

It is functional deism. But in fairness I know people who've witnessed miracles who still exhibit functional deism and are horrible people who lack the fruits of the Spirit and above all else love which makes them a clanging cymbal. I would caution about putting "saved" in quotes (I understand what you're saying but I'd hate for someone to misunderstand you and think you're advocating the other extreme of having to have some type of experience to be saved, which I know you're not advocating)

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

It is functional deism. But in fairness I know people who've witnessed miracles who still exhibit functional deism and are horrible people who lack the fruits of the Spirit and above all else love which makes them a clanging cymbal. I would caution about putting "saved" in quotes (I understand what you're saying but I'd hate for someone to misunderstand you and think you're advocating the other extreme of having to have some type of experience to be saved, which I know you're not advocating)

I wouldn't say it's necessary to have an experience to be saved but being saved can't be devoid of an experience in some way either. I would seriously question my salvation if there was no change in me at all. And that doesn't mean I put my experience above Scripture either. But it is my experience of being regenerated that allows me to identify with what the Bible says to begin with!

 

[TB2]

I wouldn't say it's necessary to have an experience to be saved but being saved can't be devoid of an experience in some way either. I would seriously question my salvation if there was no change in me at all. And that doesn't mean I put my experience above Scripture either. But it is my experience of being regenerated that allows me to identify with what the Bible says to begin with!

Amen brother! I hear and understand what you're saying but just want to make sure no one else misunderstands because there's a lot of anti sentiment towards the view that you have to have a particular experience or speak in tongues to be saved (which ironically I have never heard any Pentecostal or Charismatic ever claim that! I'm still wondering what the basis for that long time stereotype is and where it came from ).

Anyway, I wish there was a better word than "experience" because that in itself is such an emotionally charged word among believers and cessationists. But yes, even as a cold-pew Christian for 20 plus years, I always felt like there was something off between what I read in Scripture and what I was experiencing in my own Christian walk. And I don't even mean miracles or gifts and such, but just the transformative experience you read about in the Bible. We should be changed somehow.

Now when I did start experiencing what I read in the NT in my late twenties it's not like I suddenly became saved. I was still saved and had been saved all along since I was four years old, and truly believed. But what I did realize is that I had been limiting God in my life. And God being the loving God that He is doesn't force the weight of His entire glory on us. But one small taste of the real, present, active living God and it's like the parables of the treasure and pearl of great price. Nothing else compares and nothing else we could ever hope to gain in this life matters or comes close to it.

And I just want all believers to know that our God is a living ever present God. And that the Spirit-filled life is not simply about the gifts and miracles but a truly supernatural empowerment to live righteously and morally in a way that I could never do so on my own. I don't care so much about winning arguments with cessationists. I don't care if they believe in the gifts or not. I just want fellow brothers and sisters to chase after God Himself and realize how much He is willing to intervene and be a direct part of our lives if we truly let Him do so and invite Him to do so.

And I will be totally honest: I'm not there yet myself. And need to surrender more to the Lord. And that's what it's really about. Not chasing after miracles or experiences or gifts or what have you (all those things are just a byproduct of time spent in His Presence). It's about the cost and price of discipleship. How much are we truly willing to give up our lives and truly say okay God my life, my time, my possessions, my finances, my personal goals and ambitions I surrender it all to You to do with as You wish. Use me however you want. In many ways I'm too academic and read and study too much when I should be praying and surrendering more.

But yes God can supernaturally intervene and transform us and use us, but it comes at a cost. We have to be willing to be inconvenienced and put our wants and wishes aside.

Blessings my friend

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Amen brother! I hear and understand what you're saying but just want to make sure no one else misunderstands because there's a lot of anti sentiment towards the view that you have to have a particular experience or speak in tongues to be saved (which ironically I have never heard any Pentecostal or Charismatic ever claim that! I'm still wondering what the basis for that long time stereotype is and where it came from ).

Anyway, I wish there was a better word than "experience" because that in itself is such an emotionally charged word among believers and cessationists. But yes, even as a cold-pew Christian for 20 plus years, I always felt like there was something off between what I read in Scripture and what I was experiencing in my own Christian walk. And I don't even mean miracles or gifts and such, but just the transformative experience you read about in the Bible. We should be changed somehow.

Now when I did start experiencing what I read in the NT in my late twenties it's not like I suddenly became saved. I was still saved and had been saved all along since I was four years old, and truly believed. But what I did realize is that I had been limiting God in my life. And God being the loving God that He is doesn't force the weight of His entire glory on us. But one small taste of the real, present, active living God and it's like the parables of the treasure and pearl of great price. Nothing else compares and nothing else we could ever hope to gain in this life matters or comes close to it.

And I just want all believers to know that our God is a living ever present God. And that the Spirit-filled life is not simply about the gifts and miracles but a truly supernatural empowerment to live righteously and morally in a way that I could never do so on my own. I don't care so much about winning arguments with cessationists. I don't care if they believe in the gifts or not. I just want fellow brothers and sisters to chase after God Himself and realize how much He is willing to intervene and be a direct part of our lives if we truly let Him do so and invite Him to do so.

And I will be totally honest: I'm not there yet myself. And need to surrender more to the Lord. And that's what it's really about. Not chasing after miracles or experiences or gifts or what have you (all those things are just a byproduct of time spent in His Presence). It's about the cost and price of discipleship. How much are we truly willing to give up our lives and truly say okay God my life, my time, my possessions, my finances, my personal goals and ambitions I surrender it all to You to do with as You wish. Use me however you want. In many ways I'm too academic and read and study too much when I should be praying and surrendering more.

But yes God can supernaturally intervene and transform us and use us, but it comes at a cost. We have to be willing to be inconvenienced and put our wants and wishes aside.

Blessings my friend

Bunyan said in answer to a question about living a good life, that if he didn't regularly read the Bible he would have fallen into sin. That is what I believe too. I know that if I don't read the Bible for a long time, God kind of leaves in a way but if I start reading it again I start to actually get convictions of sin from the Holy Spirit bringing Bible verses to my mind supernaturally. I know that it is not me doing that but it's very subtle and quite difficult to explain with words. I say subtle, but really it's powerful too, as the words pop into my mind sort of in their completeness with a "feeling" of conviction of sin accompanying them. It's almost like seeing the words in my mind's eye, fully formed.

God's presence was massive to me when I was saved I have often described it as more real than normal reality seems to be like. It was ultra "real". Super real. Awesome, astounding, the Holiness I felt was overwhelming, and the peace that accompanied it was like Valium without any side effects or intoxication. Just pure, beautiful, peace and tranquility, something I cannot explain with words very well. "The peace that passes understanding". It only happened to me that one time, at my new birth, but it was so good all I have ever wanted since that time (it's been 9 years now) is to experience that again. Of course, there is a type of background general stable and permanent kind of peace all the time but it seems dormant or something.

 

[GeneZ]

HI TB,

I do believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit but I need to warn you that what you experienced was `lying wonders.`

`The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power signs and lying wonders.` (2 Thess. 2: 9)

Stigmata is a medical condition that many people have and makes them bleed.
Oil was introduced in a capsule.
Filling? Well God would have made anew tooth, not a filling.

And there have been - feathers, gold dust, glory clouds, jewels, angels sining etc etc . All lying wonders.

I had a room mate in Bible college was a professional magician. Before I would let him be my room mate I told him
I wanted him to show me how he does some of his tricks, because some things were spooking me. He showed me one.
It suddenly became simple to see. But, before... it spooked me. He even showed another... but that was all I needed.

 

[TB2]

I had a room mate in Bible college was a professional magician. Before I would let him be my room mate I told him
I wanted him to show me how he does some of his tricks, because some things were spooking me. He showed me one.
It suddenly became simple to see. But, before... it spooked me. He even showed another... but that was all I needed.

There are definitely charlatans. I have a fun little science observation object lesson I sometimes do with students where I am able to accurately tell them which numbers on the board they selected without me seeing without hidden cameras nothing. But I do of course have a student plant subtly feeding me the information and even when I tell students this and have them make good observations (the point of the lesson) they still can't figure it out how it's done because the prompts are that subtle. Yes, there are definite charlatans and counterfeits. We must always be discerning but also never let that dissuade us from the truly genuine. Our God is a living, active, ever present God. Blessings

 

[TB2]

@Carbon A lot of traffic on the forum (good sign of growth!) and I know you're busy so wanted to make sure Post 149 didn't get buried in answer to your question "for what purpose?." If you already saw it, disregard this. If not, I think you'll enjoy Pastor Jack Hayford's story, which includes a modern day example of not simply the gifts of tongues as understood for use in private prayer with God (1 Cor 14.1) but also an Acts 2 Pentecost Day type example of Spirit enabled speaking in a foreign language.

However in the end this is NOT about speaking in tongues (that is not the end all be all nor is it proof of any kind). We all (you, me, all believers) all just want the same thing: more of Jesus & "God with us."

Best and blessings to you (back to errands....)

 

[Carbon]

@Carbon A lot of traffic on the forum (good sign of growth!) and I know you're busy so wanted to make sure Post 149 didn't get buried in answer to your question "for what purpose?." If you already saw it, disregard this. If not, I think you'll enjoy Pastor Jack Hayford's story, which includes a modern day example of not simply the gifts of tongues as understood for use in private prayer with God (1 Cor 14.1) but also an Acts 2 Pentecost Day type example of Spirit enabled speaking in a foreign language.

However in the end this is NOT about speaking in tongues (that is not the end all be all nor is it proof of any kind). We all (you, me, all believers) all just want the same thing: more of Jesus & "God with us."

Best and blessings to you (back to errands....)

No it’s not forgotten. Thanks
Just very busy during the day. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[GeneZ]

There are definitely charlatans. I have a fun little science observation object lesson I sometimes do with students where I am able to accurately tell them which numbers on the board they selected without me seeing without hidden cameras nothing. But I do of course have a student plant subtly feeding me the information and even when I tell students this and have them make good observations (the point of the lesson) they still can't figure it out how it's done because the prompts are that subtle. Yes, there are definite charlatans and counterfeits. We must always be discerning but also never let that dissuade us from the truly genuine. Our God is a living, active, ever present God. Blessings

There were no plants in the room to tip him off....

He had the skill to make things appear that were not there a moment earlier.

He once appeared on the Dick Cavett show. No slouch.. But he looked just like a guy off the street.

Magicians carefully guard their tricks and even have trade shows designed for magicians
to sell their ideas to each other. He used a term other than "tricks", but I can not recall
what term they use amongst themselves.