Did Christ actually suffer eternal torment on our behalf?

[CrowCross]

Yes my teachers are these-Matt 24:45-- Those religions cant get by the fact the Abrahamic God served by Israel is a single being God, not 3 pieces that make him up.

Let US make man in OUR image....You were saying???

 

[CrowCross]

Yes here in these last days-truth becomes abundant.( Dan 12:4) It took correction, all of creation watched it being done over the last 140 years give or take.

I'm not quite sure what that means. Perhaps if I were of the 1% I would know.

 

[3 Resurrections]

2 Timothy 3 is today-Jesus did say the words about Noah's day to these today. We are at the end of these last days.

We are currently approaching the end of the sixth millennium in 2033, which will then begin the 7th millennium of mankind's history on this planet. Some tumult is going to happen in the transition over to that coming 7th millennium, but we are by no means at the end of history yet. Christ doesn't come again until the close of the 7th millennium - a full "week" of human history.

And 2 Timothy 3 was a first-century decline into those "perilous times" before Christ's AD 70 bodily return. Though evil men and seducers were then getting into a worse and worse condition at the time with being deceived and deceiving others, Timothy was to continue steadily in what he had learned in spite of the deception all around him.

You need new teachers. Did Jesus lead Gods armies( Rev 19:11) to earth back then= no--Is there no more-( Rev 21:4)mourning, outcries or pain or death? No, it has not occurred yet, neither has the resurrection. Gods kingdom rule will do away with those things. Any one can see we live in this satan ruled system still.

Jesus used His armies to exact His "days of vengeance" during that first-century generation, yes. The New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 is also described in Hebrews 12:22 as a reality which the saints were already experiencing. "But ye have come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels...". This New Jerusalem is a reality we as believers still live in today, and the Old Jerusalem with its "weak and beggarly elements" is forever gone, making way for this New Jerusalem to stand alone without any competition. Satan can't rule this world anymore because God slew him back in the AD 70 period, as predicted in scripture about Jerusalem, the location where Satan was burned to ashes so that he would no more exist, as Ezekiel prophesied.

As for the second resurrection event, that already occurred also back in the first century in AD 70, as Christ and almost every NT writer predicted it would.

Is there any historical record of seeing the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory, sending his powerful angels with a loud trumpet call and gathering his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other?
Surely such an event would be recorded somewhere in history.

Remember, this return of Christ was going to occur at Jerusalem where Christ would stand on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5). Those besieged inside Jerusalem would have been able to see this at dusk across the Kidron Valley, when Zechariah predicted Christ would return. However, by the end of the war in AD 70, the majority of any eye-witnesses of Christ's return would have died in the city or been taken captive to die in Roman arenas or in slavery. Dead people and slaves aren't the best at making a record of what they have seen (provided they were literate). And all Christians who obeyed Christ's warning about the "days of vengeance" had fled Judea and Jerusalem for the mountains years before then. So, no Christians would have been around to be an eye-witness of Christ's return to Jerusalem.

The shout and the loud trumpet call was for the DEAD to hear and to respond - not the living who had never died yet. Job predicted all the way back in Job 14:13-15 this call that the dead would hear. And the dead saints rising from their graves and being gathered by the angels was not promised to be visible to all across the world. After all, the change of the dead to the incorruptible in resurrection takes place "in the twinkling of an eye", so this resurrection process is not necessarily something like a slow-motion video for observers to examine.

 

[Eleanor]

We are currently approaching the end of the sixth millennium in 2033, which will then begin the 7th millennium of mankind's history on this planet. Some tumult is going to happen in the transition over to that coming 7th millennium, but we are by no means at the end of history yet. Christ doesn't come again until the close of the 7th millennium - a full "week" of human history.

And 2 Timothy 3 was a first-century decline into those "perilous times" before Christ's AD 70 bodily return. Though evil men and seducers were then getting into a worse and worse condition at the time with being deceived and deceiving others, Timothy was to continue steadily in what he had learned in spite of the deception all around him.

Jesus used His armies to exact His "days of vengeance" during that first-century generation, yes. The New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 is also described in Hebrews 12:22 as a reality which the saints were already experiencing. "But ye have come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels...". This New Jerusalem is a reality we as believers still live in today, and the Old Jerusalem with its "weak and beggarly elements" is forever gone, making way for this New Jerusalem to stand alone without any competition. Satan can't rule this world anymore because God slew him back in the AD 70 period, as predicted in scripture about Jerusalem, the location where Satan was burned to ashes so that he would no more exist, as Ezekiel prophesied.

As for the second resurrection event, that already occurred also back in the first century in AD 70, as Christ and almost every NT writer predicted it would.

Remember, this return of Christ was going to occur at Jerusalem where Christ would stand on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5). Those besieged inside Jerusalem would have been able to see this at dusk across the Kidron Valley, when Zechariah predicted Christ would return. However, by the end of the war in AD 70, the majority of any eye-witnesses of Christ's return would have died in the city or been taken captive to die in Roman arenas or in slavery. Dead people and slaves aren't the best at making a record of what they have seen (provided they were literate). And all Christians who obeyed Christ's warning about the "days of vengeance" had fled Judea and Jerusalem for the mountains years before then. So, no Christians would have been around to be an eye-witness of Christ's return to Jerusalem.

Well, the Jewish historian Josephus, who lived outside Jerusalem and would have been able to see the Jerusalem sky, would surely have seen Jesus coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory, have seen the angels and heard the trumpet call (Mt 24:30-31), and yet he makes no mention of it in his records.

The shout and the loud trumpet call was for the DEAD to hear and to respond - not the living who had never died yet. Job predicted all the way back in Job 14:13-15 this call that the dead would hear. And the dead saints rising from their graves and being gathered by the angels was not promised to be visible to all across the world. After all, the change of the dead to the incorruptible in resurrection takes place "in the twinkling of an eye", so this resurrection process is not necessarily something like a slow-motion video for observers to examine.

And that refers to the only resurrection presented in apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), as occurring not at the destruction of Jerusalem, but at the end of the NT, where all the saints who are alive on earth are raptured with the resurrected saints to meet the Lord in the air at the second coming and descend with him to the final judgment.

 

[Eleanor]

The shout and the loud trumpet call was for the DEAD to hear and to respond - not the living who had never died yet. Job predicted all the way back in Job 14:13-15 this call that the dead would hear. And the dead saints rising from their graves and being gathered by the angels was not promised to be visible to all across the world. After all, the change of the dead to the incorruptible in resurrection takes place "in the twinkling of an eye", so this resurrection process is not necessarily something like a slow-motion video for observers to examine.

And that statement refers to the only resurrection presented in apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), as occurring not at the destruction of Jerusalem, but at the last trumpet (1 Co 15:52) at the end of the NT, where all the saints who are alive on earth are raptured with the resurrected saints to meet the Lord in the air at the second coming and descend with him to the final judgment.

 

[Keiw1]

Let US make man in OUR image....You were saying???

YHWH(Jehovah) and his master worker( Jesus)= us.

 

[Keiw1]

I'm not quite sure what that means. Perhaps if I were of the 1% I would know.

Read Daniel 12:4--some truths were hidden until these last days. But those teachings were still in the bible -thus taught on in error until it was the proper time, through these-Matt 24:45 to have those truths revealed to them, thus they had to make corrections of what was taught all through the centuries by other religions and what they taught on those matters as well. No other religion has made correction to those hidden truths in these last days. My teachers have..

 

[Keiw1]

We are currently approaching the end of the sixth millennium in 2033, which will then begin the 7th millennium of mankind's history on this planet. Some tumult is going to happen in the transition over to that coming 7th millennium, but we are by no means at the end of history yet. Christ doesn't come again until the close of the 7th millennium - a full "week" of human history.

And 2 Timothy 3 was a first-century decline into those "perilous times" before Christ's AD 70 bodily return. Though evil men and seducers were then getting into a worse and worse condition at the time with being deceived and deceiving others, Timothy was to continue steadily in what he had learned in spite of the deception all around him.

Jesus used His armies to exact His "days of vengeance" during that first-century generation, yes. The New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 is also described in Hebrews 12:22 as a reality which the saints were already experiencing. "But ye have come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels...". This New Jerusalem is a reality we as believers still live in today, and the Old Jerusalem with its "weak and beggarly elements" is forever gone, making way for this New Jerusalem to stand alone without any competition. Satan can't rule this world anymore because God slew him back in the AD 70 period, as predicted in scripture about Jerusalem, the location where Satan was burned to ashes so that he would no more exist, as Ezekiel prophesied.

As for the second resurrection event, that already occurred also back in the first century in AD 70, as Christ and almost every NT writer predicted it would.

Remember, this return of Christ was going to occur at Jerusalem where Christ would stand on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5). Those besieged inside Jerusalem would have been able to see this at dusk across the Kidron Valley, when Zechariah predicted Christ would return. However, by the end of the war in AD 70, the majority of any eye-witnesses of Christ's return would have died in the city or been taken captive to die in Roman arenas or in slavery. Dead people and slaves aren't the best at making a record of what they have seen (provided they were literate). And all Christians who obeyed Christ's warning about the "days of vengeance" had fled Judea and Jerusalem for the mountains years before then. So, no Christians would have been around to be an eye-witness of Christ's return to Jerusalem.

The shout and the loud trumpet call was for the DEAD to hear and to respond - not the living who had never died yet. Job predicted all the way back in Job 14:13-15 this call that the dead would hear. And the dead saints rising from their graves and being gathered by the angels was not promised to be visible to all across the world. After all, the change of the dead to the incorruptible in resurrection takes place "in the twinkling of an eye", so this resurrection process is not necessarily something like a slow-motion video for observers to examine.

you are speaking what is actually symbolism on certain things. Your teachers are in darkness. these-2Cor 11:12-15--These last days are about to end. I believe this Hamas-Israel war will trigger the fall of Babylon the great(worldwide false religions)

 

[3 Resurrections]

Well, the Jewish historian Josephus, who lived outside Jerusalem and would have been able to see the Jerusalem sky, would surely have seen Jesus coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory, have seen the angels and heard the trumpet call (Mt 24:30-31), and yet he makes no mention of it in his records.

God can and often has been selective of whom He reveals Himself or spiritual phenomena to. Scripture gives us examples of two individuals standing side by side, and God reveals the unseen to one and not to the other. Or one hears one thing, and one hears something else. Or one hears something but doesn't see anything that the other does. You don't need me to pull up all these examples in scripture for you, do I?

If God said that it was going to be every eye of those who pierced Him that saw His return, this isn't the equivalent of everyone in the world seeing His return. It doesn't even require that others in the same vicinity, in addition to these who pierced Him, would be seeing His return. As you know, when Christ was resurrected and operating on earth for 40 days, He chose certain ones to reveal Himself to, but not to all. "Him God raised up the third day, and showed Him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us who did eat and drink with Him after He rose from the dead." (Acts 10:41). If God was selective in revealing the risen Christ back in Acts 10:41, is it so surprising that He would also be selective in who saw Him returning in AD 70? Josephus didn't need to leave me a record of Christ's return when I already have Daniel's predicted day for Christ's return with a resurrection which Daniel shared at the end of that 1,335th day. Anybody can count down 1,335 days from those two first-century events Daniel 12:11-13 predicted to happen together in the same season.

The living saints who had never died yet were not destined to share this resurrection event in AD 70 when Christ gathered all the resurrected saints to Himself and returned to heaven. Mass translations of the living to participate in a rapture at Christ's return is a myth contradicting scripture. Pre-mil disp. thought has mistakenly taught this as truth, when there is no scripture foundation for it. Only those who had already been resurrected to life but who had remained on earth in their glorified bodies, (like Lazarus and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints), would be joining the newly-resurrected in the skies to meet Christ back in AD 70.

And the text of John 5:28 makes it very clear that "all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth..." This is not the living who would be heeding this call and the voice of the Son of God. The call is for those in the grave.

These last days are about to end. I believe this Hamas-Israel war will trigger the fall of Babylon the great(worldwide false religions)

Your interpretation of "Mystery Babylon" is directly opposite to the angel's interpretation of what that name portrayed. Mystery Babylon, the woman riding the Scarlet Beast, was interpreted for us already in Revelation 17:18 as being "that great CITY which ruleth over the kings of the earth". "Kings of the earth" are high priests in scripture. Old Jerusalem with its Rome-backed governors was then ruling over the high priests in John's days. This has nothing to do with worldwide false religions that exist today. We are not free to change the angel's interpretation of this into something else.

 

[Eleanor]

God can and often has been selective of whom He reveals Himself or spiritual phenomena to. Scripture gives us examples of two individuals standing side by side, and God reveals the unseen to one and not to the other. Or one hears one thing, and one hears something else. Or one hears something but doesn't see anything that the other does. You don't need me to pull up all these examples in scripture for you, do I?

None of which give you authority to assume such with no Biblical nor historical record thereof.

That's a bridge too far.

 

[Keiw1]

God can and often has been selective of whom He reveals Himself or spiritual phenomena to. Scripture gives us examples of two individuals standing side by side, and God reveals the unseen to one and not to the other. Or one hears one thing, and one hears something else. Or one hears something but doesn't see anything that the other does. You don't need me to pull up all these examples in scripture for you, do I?

If God said that it was going to be every eye of those who pierced Him that saw His return, this isn't the equivalent of everyone in the world seeing His return. It doesn't even require that others in the same vicinity, in addition to these who pierced Him, would be seeing His return. As you know, when Christ was resurrected and operating on earth for 40 days, He chose certain ones to reveal Himself to, but not to all. "Him God raised up the third day, and showed Him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us who did eat and drink with Him after He rose from the dead." (Acts 10:41). If God was selective in revealing the risen Christ back in Acts 10:41, is it so surprising that He would also be selective in who saw Him returning in AD 70? Josephus didn't need to leave me a record of Christ's return when I already have Daniel's predicted day for Christ's return with a resurrection which Daniel shared at the end of that 1,335th day. Anybody can count down 1,335 days from those two first-century events Daniel 12:11-13 predicted to happen together in the same season.

The living saints who had never died yet were not destined to share this resurrection event in AD 70 when Christ gathered all the resurrected saints to Himself and returned to heaven. Mass translations of the living to participate in a rapture at Christ's return is a myth contradicting scripture. Pre-mil disp. thought has mistakenly taught this as truth, when there is no scripture foundation for it. Only those who had already been resurrected to life but who had remained on earth in their glorified bodies, (like Lazarus and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints), would be joining the newly-resurrected in the skies to meet Christ back in AD 70.

And the text of John 5:28 makes it very clear that "all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth..." This is not the living who would be heeding this call and the voice of the Son of God. The call is for those in the grave.

Your interpretation of "Mystery Babylon" is directly opposite to the angel's interpretation of what that name portrayed. Mystery Babylon, the woman riding the Scarlet Beast, was interpreted for us already in Revelation 17:18 as being "that great CITY which ruleth over the kings of the earth". "Kings of the earth" are high priests in scripture. Old Jerusalem with its Rome-backed governors was then ruling over the high priests in John's days. This has nothing to do with worldwide false religions that exist today. We are not free to change the angel's interpretation of this into something else.

Yes the great city= untaxed religions riding the backs of all kingdoms.. Kings of the earth are ruled by satan, thus no way are high priests.

 

[CrowCross]

YHWH(Jehovah) and his master worker( Jesus)= us.

You do know there are several verses that say God is the creator and there are several verses that say Jesus is the creator = Jesus is God.

Jesus is part of the US and OUR. Why? Because Jesus is God, the second of the Trinity.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Yes the great city= untaxed religions riding the backs of all kingdoms.. Kings of the earth are ruled by satan, thus no way are high priests.

A CITY is not "untaxed religions". You can't add to the angel's interpretation without getting your understanding of eschatology mixed up.

And I would seriously suggest your looking up the way scripture defines "kings of the earth", as in Psalms 2:2, Matthew 17:25, Lamentations 4:12, and Revelation 16:14. These "kings of the earth" were the high priests of the land of Israel who conspired with the rulers of the Sanhedrin against Christ to achieve His crucifixion, who collected the annual Temple tax, but were themselves and their sons exempt from paying that tax, who couldn't believe that their city and temple's gates were entered by the enemy, and who were finally gathered together in AD 66 to do battle with the kings of the whole habitable world (Vespasian and Titus). That first-century high priesthood was corrupt to the core, which is why they hated Christ so intensely.

None of which give you authority to assume such with no Biblical nor historical record thereof.

That's a bridge too far.

No, the "bridge too far" is to ignore Christ telling the disciples that He would return again before some of those He had spoken to personally during His earthly ministry had died. If you don't believe Christ's simple language in Matthew 16:27-28 and its companion texts in the other gospels, your eschatology is going to get mixed up. Christ was going to bodily return again before His disciples had finished going through the cities of Israel with their evangelistic endeavors, as He promised in Matthew 10:23. Every NT writer duplicates this message of Christ's imminent return in that first-century generation.

I don't need a record after the fact if I have Christ's promises of what He was about to do just before the fact. Having archaeological evidence of Christ's first-century, second coming return is just icing on the cake for me.

 

[Eleanor]

No, the "bridge too far" is to ignore Christ telling the disciples that He would return again before some of those He had spoken to personally during His earthly ministry had died.

You are misunderstanding something, for he also said:

"No one knows about that day or the hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Mt 24:36)

And that explains your bridge too far.

If you don't believe Christ's simple language in Matthew 16:27-28

As you don't believe Christ's simple language of Mt 24:36?

and its companion texts in the other gospels, your eschatology is going to get mixed up.

The same applies regarding your not believing Christ's simple language of Mt 24:36, and it has definitely messed up your eschatology.

Christ was going to bodily return again before His disciples had finished going through the cities of Israel with their evangelistic endeavors, as He promised in Matthew 10:23. Every NT writer duplicates this message of Christ's imminent return in that first-century generation.

I don't need a record after the fact if I have Christ's promises of what He was about to do just before the fact. Having archaeological evidence of Christ's first-century, second coming return is just icing on the cake for me.

What recorded evidence do you have for the following cosmic events Christ said would occur then, which surely would not go unrecorded elsewhere.

The moon not giving its light, the stars falling from the sky, and the heavenly bodies shaken (Mt 24:29),
Jesus' coming down from heaven (1 Th 4:16), appearing in the sky,
all nations of the earth mourning as they see him on the clouds of the sky (Mt 24:30).

Yours is still a bridge too far.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You are misunderstanding something, for he also said:

"No one knows about that day or the hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Mt 24:36)

And that explains your bridge too far.

I'm afraid it doesn't. That was a present tense statement - true at the time Christ uttered those words. No one at that present time knew the day nor the hour yet, but that ignorance would not last for long. It would be the same if I said, "No one knows the day nor the hour when the first hurricane of the season will arrive." Well, ignorance of that fact will only last as long as it takes the first hurricane to make landfall. Then it becomes common knowledge.

You are trying to make Christ's statement say that no one would ever know the day or the hour of Christ's second coming return. And that no one should even attempt to investigate this information, or it is a sin of some sort. That puts words in Christ's mouth that were never uttered.

The date of Christ's return was going to be based on the appearance of the new moon, which appearance of this sign in the heavens (Matthew 24:30) dictated the schedule for the Israelite Passover, and consequently the day for Pentecost 50 days later. No one knew exactly when that first sighting of the new moon would appear, so they were to keep watch. Daniel 12:11-12's 1,335th day (which Christ told people to read and understand) gave two events which would occur together in the same season. Counting down 1,335 days from those two events, a resurrection was going to take place in which Daniel would participate as he was promised. That 1,335th day fell on Pentecost day in AD 70. If the believers at that time had been watching the skies for the appearance of the new moon at Passover, they would have recognized that the culmination point 50 days later would coincide with Daniel's 1,335th day at Pentecost day in AD 70.

Why do you think that the Israelites were instructed to worship in the Sabbaths and the new moons at the eastern gate in the rebuilt temple that Zerubbabel constructed? (Ezekiel 46:1-3) It was because God was highlighting the location and the time when Messiah the Prince would return. That gate was shut the six working days and was only to be used for the Prince to enter and leave by that gate (Ezekiel 46:8).

Since that temple has been torn down completely in AD 70, that tells us its intended use was already fulfilled for Christ to return to that location and at that time. That eastern gate didn't need to be preserved after that purpose was fulfilled.

The moon not giving its light, the stars falling from the sky, and the heavenly bodies shaken (Mt 24:29),
Jesus' coming down from heaven (1 Th 4:16), appearing in the sky,
all nations of the earth mourning as they see him on the clouds of the sky (Mt 24:30).

Yours is still a bridge too far.

Zechariah wrote that it would be the Israelite tribes of the earth who would be doing that mourning when they saw Christ return. Not all nations of the earth. The sun being darkened, the moon not giving its light and stars falling from the sky is indicative of Joseph's dream of the sun, moon, and stars representing the family that composed ethnic Israel. This is typical apocalyptic language God used often to portray the destruction of a nation. Daniel 12:7's predicted "shattering the power of the holy people" was portrayed by this symbolism.

And the "powers of the heavens" being shaken (so that they could be removed in that shaking process) was the eradication of the Satanic realm whose utter destruction had been predicted long before then.

 

[turbomaniac]

It is an heretic opinion that Second Coming will be for a few people before Jesus could be seen by all humanity. Second coming will be seen first by the mark of Jesus in the sky (Cross) and with the blink of an eye there will be arise of the deads with their new bodies , new eternal bodies for the living, reformed universe and justice for all.

 

[CrowCross]

It is an heretic opinion that Second Coming will be for a few people before Jesus could be seen by all humanity. Second coming will be seen first by the mark of Jesus in the sky (Cross) and with the blink of an eye there will be arise of the deads with their new bodies , new eternal bodies for the living, reformed universe and justice for all.

You are describing the rapture.... blink of an eye there will be arise of the deads with their new bodies , new eternal bodies for the living,

The "Second Coming" is a separate event that happens about 7 years after the rapture when Jesus returns riding on a white horse then stands on the Mt. of Olives.

As to the mark of Jesus in the sky....the cross....were is that found in scripture? Just curious.

 

[turbomaniac]

You are describing the rapture.... blink of an eye there will be arise of the deads with their new bodies , new eternal bodies for the living,

The "Second Coming" is a separate event that happens about 7 years after the rapture when Jesus returns riding on a white horse then stands on the Mt. of Olives.

As to the mark of Jesus in the sky....the cross....were is that found in scripture? Just curious.

We both going to see what will happen. We must worry more for how we are going to save our souls and less of what exactly will happen at the Second Coming, this is not a matter for men. The only sure is the heretic point of view that Jesus will come first for a few like I said. And also that when Jesus will come again it will BE TOO LATE TO REPENT.

 

[CrowCross]

We both going to see what will happen. We must worry more for how we are going to save our souls and less of what exactly will happen at the Second Coming.

I don't necessarily disagree...but it is in the bible...and therefore of importance.

 

[Keiw1]

You do know there are several verses that say God is the creator and there are several verses that say Jesus is the creator = Jesus is God.

Jesus is part of the US and OUR. Why? Because Jesus is God, the second of the Trinity.

No trinity was ever served by one who served the true living God. The holy spirit was added to a trinity god at the council of Constantinople in 381 ce. That means Jesus and every bible writer were taught a single being God=YHWH(Jehovah)