Did Christ actually suffer eternal torment on our behalf?

[Eleanor]

Its a riddle to the ones in darkness. God would not contradict himself-- We can see the Father( qualities) in Jesus as well, yet no one saw the Father.

Then according to Nu 12:8, all God's prophets were in darkness.

 

[CrowCross]

I explained the reality of John 1:1 in the Greek lexicons. A god(Theon) was given to the word, while Ton Theon was given to the true God. To show the difference from a capitol G or a small g.

You can believe that if you want...go ahead.

There is no salvation in your make believe Jesus....as only the true eternal God in the flesh had to have died of the cross... and pay the eternal price of a believers sin.

If Jesus was a pure man...like you and me....that man couldn't pay the eternal price of having the sin of the world imputed to him.

With all due respect....I'll stick with the bible and not what you say it says. There's power in my words and death in yours.

 

[Keiw1]

Then according to Nu 12:8, all God's prophets were in darkness.

Not at all. Todays religions are in darkness-Jesus is only with a single religion, not hundreds.

 

[Keiw1]

You can believe that if you want...go ahead.

There is no salvation in your make believe Jesus....as only the true eternal God in the flesh had to have died of the cross... and pay the eternal price of a believers sin.

If Jesus was a pure man...like you and me....that man couldn't pay the eternal price of having the sin of the world imputed to him.

With all due respect....I'll stick with the bible and not what you say it says. There's power in my words and death in yours.

Gods justice scales are in perfect balance. A God did not rebel in Eden losing a good standing for mortals. A perfect mortal did, thus true justice= a perfect mortal died and paid the wages of sin he did not owe= the ransom sacrifice. Your words are darkness.

 

[Eleanor]

Not at all. Todays religions are in darkness-Jesus is only with a single religion, not hundreds.

God's prophetic riddles being to the ones in darkness, as you say, and
God's prophetic riddles being to the prophets, as God says (Nu 12:8), necessarily means that
God's prophets were in darkness.
You've changed your mind?

 

[Keiw1]

God's prophetic riddles being to the ones in darkness, as you say, and
God's prophetic riddles being to the prophets, as God says (Nu 12:8), necessarily means that
God's prophets were in darkness.
You've changed your mind?

You must have missed Jesus' promise to the teachers he is with to send holy spirit to guide them into ALL truth. John 16:13- That is for these last days, this is accomplished because of that promise=Daniel 12:4-truth is abundant.

 

[Mr GLee]

God's prophetic riddles being to the ones in darkness, as you say, and
God's prophetic riddles being to the prophets, as God says (Nu 12:8), necessarily means that
God's prophets were in darkness.
You've changed your mind?

Riddles are parables as figures of speech. They hide the gospel understanding from those that have no faith as an understanding that alone comes from hearing God.

Prophets declare the word of light. Prophets are not in darkness.

Numbers is simply saying the understanding of God hidden in parables are not hidden from those who declare or prophecy the parables.

Numbers 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

 

[ReverendRV]

In another thread, @Eleanor said:
"To posit that the purpose of Christ's brutal atoning death included anything else that was less,
that anything less would apply to all without exception, and of no faith,
contrary to the Biblical testimony of the meaning of blood sacrifice as presented in the OT sacrifices and in authoritative NT apostolic teaching,
is to hi-jack Christ's atonement for the sake of serving your personal theology,
altering the terms of his sacrifice, both in meaning (expiation) and application (by belief in him), which is
as grievous a misrepresentation of this sacred reality as were the false charges against him.
To attempt to manipulate such a staggering Christian foundational reality, all for the sake of one's own personal theology,
betrays an insufficient apprehension of the cross."

I'm not sure I'm understanding her right, but it seems she implies that Christ's physical death is all that was required as payment for our sin. I have heard that before —in fact, I will never forget the look on my own mother's face when she said, "...are you saying that Christ went to [everlasting torment] in our place???"

Yes, I think he did. Did he actually die spiritually in our place? In a sense, yes, in that he did pay our penalty of 'everlasting' death, which to my mind is both temporally physical, and eternally physical and spiritual. But God cannot be killed. Being eternal/infinite, Christ was not defeated there. Note that it says that God raised him from the dead (Acts 2:24, Romans 8:11), and not that he raised himself, though he was himself God. (This is part of my reasoning why I suppose the "eternal" punishment may best be understood by us to be a matter of infinity of degree, rather than an eternal extension of time —well, that, and the notion I carry, for other reasons, that it will be happening outside this temporal envelope we inhabit.) (This is also why I insist, not only in his resurrection, but on his payment of our sin, that he HAD to be God himself. No creature can bear that penalty and 'survive'.) Here also, I think we see beautiful demonstration, of the unity of the Godhead and relationship of the persons of the Trinity, and of God's power —able to go to, or even beyond, the edge of disaster, and that, intentionally, but come out of it the victor.

There are many examples of others that have suffered worse physically, and died more (physically) horribly. I don't think that any suffered more psychologically/emotionally/mentally —but to the limits of their endurance, or even beyond, yes. But, regardless, the protests I have heard against it being more than his physical death, to me, truncate the meaning of Adam's disobedience and the curse, in both what has been imputed to us, and what we deserve in our rebellion. Our debt is not paid off in our physical death.

To me, it seems an awful stretch to say that his physical death alone was what saves us. But that is me, and something I have pretty much always assumed, and as far as I know, has not been proven wrong. I think he went to Hell/'Death'/Lake of Fire and suffered every bit the intensity of the punishment we owe —death— time irrelevant. But I admit to much of my view being by my reasoning from Scripture, and am open to better thinking.

Thoughts?

I reconcile Christ's receiving the temporary Wrath of God on the Cross, with our Eternal Punishment as being equitable exchanges; by realizing that when an Eternal Being is Punished, the Eternal quotient is satisfied in a moment...

 

[Keiw1]

I reconcile Christ's receiving the temporary Wrath of God on the Cross, with our Eternal Punishment as being equitable exchanges; by realizing that when an Eternal Being is Punished, the Eternal quotient is satisfied in a moment...

Jesus got no wrath of God. Why would he? God was well pleased with him.

 

[ReverendRV]

Jesus got no wrath of God. Why would he? God was well pleased with him.

Because our Punishment was upon him...

Judgment Days ~ by ReverendRV * June 15

Romans 2:5 ESV; But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

Theology sometimes presents us with a System to explain difficulties in the Bible. I often say that if you cannot find an answer to a possible mistake in the Bible, and no one is able to give you the answer; it doesn’t mean there’s nobody out here who can give an answer. There is a Principle in Theology known as ‘Dual Fulfilment’. Isaiah 7:14 is a dual fulfillment; a Promised son was born in the Old Testament; and in the New Testament. Jesus read from the Book of Isaiah; but stopped at a certain point, saying that in his day the reading was fulfilled in their hearing. The Reason Jesus stopped was because the next Verse he could have read, will be fulfilled on Judgment Day. ~ Another Verse also has a Double fulfillment; ‘The Sun will darken and the Moon turn blood red, before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord comes’. In Ellicott’s Commentary, He says the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord is the Day Jesus Christ died. Saint Peter teaches us it was Christ’s Judgment Day. Saint Paul teaches this Day of Wrath is coming again…

Why is there a Day of Wrath? It is due to the Sin of the World. ~ What do you call people who Lie? Have you ever Lied? Then you belong in their Category. Do you not believe in God? Now you broke the First Commandment to believe in God. Have you ever thought of God as anything other than what the Bible says he is? Then you broke the Second Commandment not to make a god to suit yourself. Have you ever Hated someone? Jesus said this means you’ve Murdered them in your Heart. He also said, ‘Unbelievers, Murderers, Idolaters, and all Liars deserve to go to Hell’. Will you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or Hell? ~ What you need is an Alternative Judgment Day where God’s Wrath can be revealed…

For God so Loved the world he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus Christ was born of a Virgin, that he could be Sinless. He lived a life of maintaining his Sinlessness, and this is why God his Father was well pleased with him. He earned his way to Heaven by being Good, but volunteered to pay the Penalty for the Sins of every new Believer; by being a Substitute for them, on a Substitute Day of Judgment and Wrath. Jesus Christ died on the Cross by bleeding to death, was buried; but arose from the Grave Alive! He was seen by five Hundred people before he Ascended to Heaven. We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, without Works lest we boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; and learn from him at a Gospel Church. ~ Are you not convinced that the Day of Christ’s Crucifixion is the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord’s Judgment? How could that Day be Great at all?? As Christians we celebrate the day every year; after all, why in the world do we call that Terrible day, ‘Good Friday’?

Isaiah 53:5 ESV; But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.

 

[Keiw1]

Because our Punishment was upon him...

Judgment Days ~ by ReverendRV * June 15

Romans 2:5 ESV; But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

Theology sometimes presents us with a System to explain difficulties in the Bible. I often say that if you cannot find an answer to a possible mistake in the Bible, and no one is able to give you the answer; it doesn’t mean there’s nobody out here who can give an answer. There is a Principle in Theology known as ‘Dual Fulfilment’. Isaiah 7:14 is a dual fulfillment; a Promised son was born in the Old Testament; and in the New Testament. Jesus read from the Book of Isaiah; but stopped at a certain point, saying that in his day the reading was fulfilled in their hearing. The Reason Jesus stopped was because the next Verse he could have read, will be fulfilled on Judgment Day. ~ Another Verse also has a Double fulfillment; ‘The Sun will darken and the Moon turn blood red, before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord comes’. In Ellicott’s Commentary, He says the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord is the Day Jesus Christ died. Saint Peter teaches us it was Christ’s Judgment Day. Saint Paul teaches this Day of Wrath is coming again…

Why is there a Day of Wrath? It is due to the Sin of the World. ~ What do you call people who Lie? Have you ever Lied? Then you belong in their Category. Do you not believe in God? Now you broke the First Commandment to believe in God. Have you ever thought of God as anything other than what the Bible says he is? Then you broke the Second Commandment not to make a god to suit yourself. Have you ever Hated someone? Jesus said this means you’ve Murdered them in your Heart. He also said, ‘Unbelievers, Murderers, Idolaters, and all Liars deserve to go to Hell’. Will you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or Hell? ~ What you need is an Alternative Judgment Day where God’s Wrath can be revealed…

For God so Loved the world he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus Christ was born of a Virgin, that he could be Sinless. He lived a life of maintaining his Sinlessness, and this is why God his Father was well pleased with him. He earned his way to Heaven by being Good, but volunteered to pay the Penalty for the Sins of every new Believer; by being a Substitute for them, on a Substitute Day of Judgment and Wrath. Jesus Christ died on the Cross by bleeding to death, was buried; but arose from the Grave Alive! He was seen by five Hundred people before he Ascended to Heaven. We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, without Works lest we boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; and learn from him at a Gospel Church. ~ Are you not convinced that the Day of Christ’s Crucifixion is the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord’s Judgment? How could that Day be Great at all?? As Christians we celebrate the day every year; after all, why in the world do we call that Terrible day, ‘Good Friday’?

Isaiah 53:5 ESV; But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.

Wicked mortal hearts caused what he went through. Jesus death opened the door to all to enter the narrow gate-Few have. Few even knows what he taught.

 

[ReverendRV]

Wicked mortal hearts caused what he went through. Jesus death opened the door to all to enter the narrow gate-Few have. Few even knows what he taught.

All this is true, but it's not a denial that God poured his Wrath on the Cross of Christ...

Question; was the Crucifixion the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord?

 

[Eleanor]

Riddles are parables as figures of speech. They hide the gospel understanding from those that have no faith as an understanding that alone comes from hearing God.

Prophets declare the word of light. Prophets are not in darkness.

Numbers is simply saying the understanding of God hidden in parables are not hidden from those who declare or prophecy the parables.

Numbers 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

God is referring to Moses (him) to whom he speaks clearly (mouth to mouth, even apparently),
and not in dark speeches (whose meaning cannot be seen because the meaning is in darkness) as he does to the other prophets.

Herein we learn that in speaking to the prophets, God gives prophecy in "dark speeches" or riddles, and not clearly, apparently, as he spoke to Moses.

Riddles (dark speeches) of prophecies are subject to more than one interpretation.

 

[Eleanor]

You must have missed Jesus' promise to the teachers he is with to send holy spirit to guide them into ALL truth. John 16:13- That is for these last days, this is accomplished because of that promise=Daniel 12:4-truth is abundant.

Jesus was speaking specifically to the apostles at the Last Supper and promised the apostles that he would send the Holy Spirit to reveal to them what they could not understand at the time (Jn 16:12), regarding him, the whole Christian way, and revelation still future at the time he spoke, as the marvelous revelations in Paul's writings, all of which are found and preserved in the apostolic writings authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16).

 

[Keiw1]

All this is true, but it's not a denial that God poured his Wrath on the Cross of Christ...

Question; was the Crucifixion the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord?

No it wasn't--Rev 19:11 will be that day.

 

[makesends]

In an attempt to return this thread back to the subject, I have quoted below a few of the answers, partial for some, to the op.

I reconcile Christ's receiving the temporary Wrath of God on the Cross, with our Eternal Punishment as being equitable exchanges; by realizing that when an Eternal Being is Punished, the Eternal quotient is satisfied in a moment...

What Jesus suffered is what those with unrepented sin will suffer, separation from God, and yet Christ was sinless. When He was on the cross, He cried out, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" He felt separated from God. He experienced the torment that the wicked will experience. The wages of sin is eternal death. Christ died the equivalent of that death. He drank the cup to it’s bitter dregs, so that we will not have to drink it. Christ died the equivalent of the second death for us. We do not need to die that terrible death of separation from the Father, though its up to us to choose. If anyone dies the second death it will be because they have chosen it. We must choose the gift Christ gives us.

This op asks about eternal suffering. Properly understood, eternity is endless in all directions. There's no before or after, start or end. There is only the perpetual now. So, I ask everyone if they think there was suffering prior to God creating. If the answer is, "No," then so to is the answer to whether or not Jesus actually suffered eternal torment.

But then there's that pesky problem of memory. If Jesus remembers any of it (and the book of Revelation would seem to indicate that is the case), and he is eternal, then the suffering never goes away. I, therefore, suggest the better way to understand it is the endless suffering that experience contains.

But I will also suggest that particular set of sufferings was God working good according to His purpose so maybe, from the divine perspective, it was all rather an exciting adventure in which a great victory was achieved. In a single moment all of creation was changed.

I always say, "When an Eternal Being suffers the Wrath of God, the Eternal requirement has been Mete"...

For instance, Jesus could have experienced the Wrath of God for a few hours on the Cross; and it felt like an Eternity, because he is Eternal...

When we go to Hell, it takes an Eternity for us to meet the Eternal requirement of Punishment. Obviously, the Eternal requirement for Punishment had to be satisfied somehow; or Jesus would still be there. The Eternal aspect of Punishment can't be waved off; it must be Mete. If Jesus didn't have to meet the requirement, there is room for people to argue that we do not have to endure Eternal Punishment either...

Spiritual death; i.e., absence of eternal divine life within his immortal human spirit could be possible, since it is the wages of sin (Ge 2:17:
"Dying (spiritually), you shall die (physically)."
It might have been the source of, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
But then there is the issue of when the return of divine eternal life to his human spirit in the new birth.

What does spiritual death mean and what does any given person mean when they use the term?

What I want to know is what does God mean by the term "death". Sometimes I think he says things so that we will work our way into it until we hit an obstruction, but then, we try to get around it without backing up. It is interesting to me how we try so hard to make things fit our perspective. God gives us the word, "death", but doesn't complete the concept for us. We don't know what he's talking about, though we do have some idea. The same goes for "sin". So we don't understand what he did for us, but in words we can barely use.

But certainly, or so it seems to me, here we find things that are so nearly unsearchable that to have any comprehension of explanation it will be by notions that happen upon us, and not by our design to find out! And it is way too easy to engage in what seems reasonable at the expense of truth.

Yet, it is upon us to do. And we can hardly help but do so!

Christ paid for our sin in every particular and in every degree we deserved, I think, but that doesn't mean that what we would have gone through is the same for him as it would be for us. I think it was every bit as "actual" as it would have been for us, were we not delivered from it, but our notions of death, sin, time and eternity —even consciousness— and certainly, of 'existence' and life itself in whatever way they apply to Christ and what he did for us, are so weak and ignorant that I am mostly just amazed at the slightest sight of ...of what—God's face? No, more likely, even less than what Moses saw.

There are layers upon layers of plays on words, plays on concepts, plays on meanings, in here, when we study the rest of Scripture. Does this question relate to "our suffering in Christ" / "to know Christ in his sufferings"? How about died to sin? What does it mean to be made alive? What are the implications of "rivers of living water", to how Christ was resurrected? What is "in Christ"? What does it mean to be "the Body of Christ" and "partakers of his suffering"?

Maybe all we can do is comment. But sometimes, I think, we know more, because we know him, than we will let ourselves look at. "...too wonderful for me" Psalm 139:6

 

[Bornfield]

.
Hell, ︸ The Grave, ︸ Death ︸ Eternity ☞ Hebrew manuscript linguisticicals

𝔦n the Trinitarian Translation

Basically γέεννα - { Yehenna - gheh'-en-nah } is always translated as the word " HELL "

𝔟ut - was this what Jesus was referring to as the literal place in Israel where the where the bodies / corpses of evil individuals and criminals were buried or placed ?


{ Yehenna was a literal place, a great valley where dead animals, junk and feces / refuse was thrown into.

The Yehenna Valley was a place of burning sewage, burning flesh, and garbage. Maggots and worms crawled through the waste, and the smoke smelled strong and sickening


Isaiah 30:33 { Yehenna } - 𝔴as a place, utterly filthy, disgusting, and repulsive to the nose and eyes.


Yehenna is a word for a literal place in Israel - Christ used this word 12 𝔱otal times in the manuscripts when ministering to his Hebrew people, referring one dying and going to the grave and dying in disgrace and shame - as being thrown or cast into the valley called “ Yehenna


Yet - γέεννα - Yehenna is a word that the translations always 𝔱ranslate as the word “ hell “ but yet it is a literal name for a physical location and it is a great valley called “ Yehenna “


𝔱he literal physical valley called “ γέεννα - Yehenna “ is translated as “ Hell “ in these 12 passages in the translations
Mat 5:22, + 29, Mat 5:30, Mat 10:28, Mat 18:9, Mat 23:15 + 33, Mar 9:43, + 45, Mar 9:47, Luk 12:5, Jas 3:6

 

[Bornfield]

changing this word into the word “ HELL , “ is because the 𝔱ranslators noticed that Jesus seemed to literally be speaking of place of Yehenna as a literal place where the soul can be literally destroyed.

The 𝔱ranslators then always translated the word “ Yehenna “ as - - HELL - always and never translated this word " Yehenna " as the literal valley as the location in Israel called - " Yehenna "

However, in the manuscripts, the Greek the word Jesus used to say as = destroyed, is the word - “ ἀπόλλυμι - apollumi “

- this Greek word often in the manuscripts is also used to denote a state of being “ LOST “ - UN – SAVABLE, discontinued for usage - un savable - - UN – RECOVERABLE- perishable - ruined

Notice please
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to -
ἀπόλλυμι - loose / perish / ruined destroyed ? / lost both soul and body in - γέεννα - Yehenna

This same exact Greek word -- “ ἀπόλλυμι - apollumi “ -- 𝔦s translated many times, as - lost / loose

Mat 10:6 - ἀπόλλυμι - lost sheep
Mat 15:24 l- ἀπόλλυμι - lost sheep
Mat 18:11 that which was - ἀπόλλυμι - lost lost.
Luk 15:4 if he - ἀπόλλυμι - loose one
Luk 15:6 sheep which was - ἀπόλλυμι - lost
Luk 15:24 my son was - ἀπόλλυμι - lost
Luk 15:32 brother was dead and was - ἀπόλλυμι - lost
Luk 19:10 save that which was - ἀπόλλυμι - lost
Joh 6:12 that nothing be - ἀπόλλυμι - lost
Joh 18:9 I - ἀπόλλυμι - lost none.
2Co 4:3 to them that are - ἀπόλλυμι - lost
Mat 10:39 he that - ἀπόλλυμι - loosest his life
Mat 10:42 in no wise - ἀπόλλυμι - lost his reward.
Mat 16:25 shall - ἀπόλλυμι - lose his life
Mar 2:22 the bottles will be lost - ruined - no longer usable - - ἀπόλλυμι - lost
Mar 8:35 shall - ἀπόλλυμι - lose his life
Mar 8:35 shall - ἀπόλλυμι - lose his life
Mar 9:41 he shall not - ἀπόλλυμι - lose his reward.
Luk 9:24 shall - ἀπόλλυμι - lose his life
Luk 9:25 a man - ἀπόλλυμι - loose himself
Luk 15:4 he lose one of them - that which is lost
Luk 15:8 if she - ἀπόλλυμι - lose one piece
Luk 17:33 shall - ἀπόλλυμι - lose his life
Joh 6:12 that nothing be - ἀπόλλυμι - lost
Joh 12:25 shall - ἀπόλλυμι - lose his life
2Jn 1:8 that we - ἀπόλλυμι - loose not those things

 

[Bornfield]

In the manuscripts, the Greek word - “ ἀπόλλυμι - lost “ is very often expressed as explaining a state of being lost, loosing, perishing and the translators also use this same word as how it is expressed in the scriptures as a state of being lost, loosing, and perishing ruination - of the soul

Could it be that Jesus was truly intending to use literal location of the Valley called - γέεννα / Yehenna,, - which is a literal place in Israel, as a literal example to describe to the Hebrew people - as being lost, - loosing, and perishing ruining - their souls, as receiving a disgraceful, shameful, horrible and dishonorable burial -

intended - as a comparison of the way the soul will disgracefully, shamefully, horribly be lost and perished and ruined in death also ?


Mat 10:28
και And - μη not - φοβηθητε be afraid - απο of - των them - αποκτεινοντων of whom kill - το the - σωμα body - την that - δε also - ψυχην the soul - μη not - δυναμενων are able to - αποκτειναι to kill - φοβηθητε be afraid - δε also - μαλλον rather - τον that - δυναμενον are able - και also - ψυχην the soul - και and - σωμα body - απολεσαι loose / perish - εν in - γεεννη Yeenna

meaning from 𝔤reek
And not be afraid of them of whom kill the body that also the soul not are able to kill

be afraid also rather that are able to also the soul and body loose / perish in - Yeenna


the manuscripts show that the word “ “ ᾅδης - hadēs / “Hades” simply means - THE GRAVE - HELL
11 total times the Greek word “ hadēs “ is translated as the word “ hell “


But the other - additional 12 times we see the word hell - that literally, Jesus was using the Valley of Yehenna which is a literal place in Israel , using this word 12 total times in the manuscripts as a parable or symbolic meaning -
referring to one dying and going the Valley of Yehenna and dying in disgrace and shame - as if they are being thrown or cast into the valley called “ Yehenna “

𝔢xplaining to a Hebrew 𝔞udience that their very soul and spirit will also be lost in disgrace and shame and perish and be ruined for eternity and that in Yehenna with also Hades being the words always translated as hell

could it be ? in the MANUSCRIPTS AUTHORED

Hades - was rather always, originally intended in the manuscripts to be translated as simply ----- the grave ?
and
Yehenna - was rather always, originally intended in the manuscripts to be translated as ----- the Valley of Yehenna - as th𝔢 literal location and physical place that exists ?
as parable to the Hebrew audience instead of a Trinitarian program system of future understanding

 

[Eleanor]

In the manuscripts, the Greek word - “ ἀπόλλυμι - lost “ is very often expressed as explaining a state of being lost, loosing, perishing and the translators also use this same word as how it is expressed in the scriptures as a state of being lost, loosing, and perishing ruination - of the soul
Could it be that Jesus was truly intending to use literal location of the Valley called - γέεννα / Yehenna,, - which is a literal place in Israel, as a literal example to describe to the Hebrew people -
as being lost, - loosing, and perishing ruining - their souls, as receiving a disgraceful, shameful, horrible and dishonorable burial

It is a place where the soul (Greek: ψυχή, psyche) and body could be destroyed (Mt 10:28) in "unquenchable fire" (Mk 9:43).

Jesus calls it eternal punishment in contrast to eternal life (Mt 25:46).

intended - as a comparison of the way the soul will disgracefully, shamefully, horribly be lost and perished and ruined in death also ?

Mat 10:28
και And - μη not - φοβηθητε be afraid - απο of - των them - αποκτεινοντων of whom kill - το the - σωμα body - την that - δε also - ψυχην the soul - μη not - δυναμενων are able to - αποκτειναι to kill - φοβηθητε be afraid - δε also - μαλλον rather - τον that - δυναμενον are able - και also - ψυχην the soul - και and - σωμα body - απολεσαι loose / perish - εν in - γεεννη Yeenna

meaning from 𝔤reek
And not be afraid of them of whom kill the body that also the soul not are able to kill

be afraid also rather that are able to also the soul and body loose / perish in - Yeenna

the manuscripts show that the word “ “ ᾅδης - hadēs / “Hades” simply means - THE GRAVE - HELL
11 total times the Greek word “ hadēs “ is translated as the word “ hell “

But the other - additional 12 times we see the word hell - that literally, Jesus was using the Valley of Yehenna which is a literal place in Israel , using this word 12 total times in the manuscripts as a parable or symbolic meaning -
referring to one dying and going the Valley of Yehenna and dying in disgrace and shame - as if they are being thrown or cast into the valley called “ Yehenna “

Is it about "disgrace and shame" in Gehenna, or about "unquenchable fire" (Mk 9:45) in Gehenna?

𝔢xplaining to a Hebrew 𝔞udience that their very soul and spirit will also be lost in disgrace and shame and perish and be ruined for eternity and that in Yehenna with also Hades being the words always translated as hell
could it be ? in the MANUSCRIPTS AUTHORED
Hades - was rather always, originally intended in the manuscripts to be translated as simply ----- the grave ?and
Yehenna - was rather always, originally intended in the manuscripts to be translated as ----- the Valley of Yehenna - as th𝔢 literal location and physical place that exists ? as parable to the Hebrew audience instead of a Trinitarian program system of future understanding ?

How does the "Trinitarian program system" differ from the teaching of Christ in Mt 10:28, Mt 25:46, Mk 9:43, which is the divine truth of the matter?