Did Christ actually suffer eternal torment on our behalf?

[Keiw1]

A CITY is not "untaxed religions". You can't add to the angel's interpretation without getting your understanding of eschatology mixed up.

And I would seriously suggest your looking up the way scripture defines "kings of the earth", as in Psalms 2:2, Matthew 17:25, Lamentations 4:12, and Revelation 16:14. These "kings of the earth" were the high priests of the land of Israel who conspired with the rulers of the Sanhedrin against Christ to achieve His crucifixion, who collected the annual Temple tax, but were themselves and their sons exempt from paying that tax, who couldn't believe that their city and temple's gates were entered by the enemy, and who were finally gathered together in AD 66 to do battle with the kings of the whole habitable world (Vespasian and Titus). That first-century high priesthood was corrupt to the core, which is why they hated Christ so intensely.


No, the "bridge too far" is to ignore Christ telling the disciples that He would return again before some of those He had spoken to personally during His earthly ministry had died. If you don't believe Christ's simple language in Matthew 16:27-28 and its companion texts in the other gospels, your eschatology is going to get mixed up. Christ was going to bodily return again before His disciples had finished going through the cities of Israel with their evangelistic endeavors, as He promised in Matthew 10:23. Every NT writer duplicates this message of Christ's imminent return in that first-century generation.

I don't need a record after the fact if I have Christ's promises of what He was about to do just before the fact. Having archaeological evidence of Christ's first-century, second coming return is just icing on the cake for me.

Israel kings were spiritual, anointed by God, some fell though. No worldly king even knows God. If Christ returned-where is Gods kingdom and all its promises? Do you know anything about Gods kingdom rule=a govt headed by Gods appointed king.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Israel kings were spiritual, anointed by God, some fell though. No worldly king even knows God. If Christ returned-where is Gods kingdom and all its promises? Do you know anything about Gods kingdom rule=a govt headed by Gods appointed king.

The title "kings of the earth" is not the same thing as a regular monarch, such as King David, King Solomon, etc.. Specifically, the scripture references I gave you above concerning the title "kings of the earth" refers to the high priests of the land of Israel who once wore the golden crown with "Holiness to the Lord' engraved on it (Psalms 2:2, Matthew 17:25, Lamentations 4:12, and Revelation 16:14).

God said He had made Israel "a kingdom of priests". Israel's royalty was originally in her high priesthood - not a regular monarch as all the other nations had. In rebellion, the people chose to reject the sole rule of those "kings of the earth" in order to have a king such as the other nations had, but that was not God's original design for their nation.

So, when Revelation gives prophecies regarding those "kings of the earth", this was actions that were performed by high priests in Israel - right up until the time when God physically got rid of that high priesthood for all time in the AD 70 period. This was necessary in order to keep Israel from reverting back to that Levitical system of which they had made a competing idol, compared to Christ's superior Great High Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.

After Christ's AD 70 bodily return to gather all the resurrected saints and return to heaven with them, His kingdom continued to grow, just like the stone which struck one blow to the feet of Daniel's image and caused that image to break into powdered dust on the wind. That "stone" kingdom is continuing to grow today, and its effects will eventually fill the whole habitable world before Christ's final return.

 

[Eleanor]

No trinity was ever served by one who served the true living God. The holy spirit was added to a trinity god at the council of Constantinople in 381 ce. That means Jesus and every bible writer were taught a single being God=YHWH(Jehovah)

As presented to you in post #314, the Trinity has been "served by those who served the true living God" in the NT, for from the beginning of the NT, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are presented in apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16).

1) We have three distinct persons (divine agents), Father, Son and Holy Spirit, presented in the work of salvation:

a)--at its beginning (Luke 1:35),
-----at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Matthew 3:16-17) and
-----in the work of atonement (Hebrews 9:14),

b) the Holy Spirit completing the work (salvation) of the Father through the Son
(Acts 2:38-39; Romans 8:26; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:13-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2),

c) the only way to enter the kingdom of the Father (salvation) is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (John 3:1-15).

2) And Jesus shows the personhoods of three distinct divine agents:

The Son is sent by the Father, in the Father's name (John 5:23, 36, 43).
The Spirit is sent by the Father in the Son's name (John 14:26).
The Spirit is subject to the Son as well as to the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father (John 15:26, 16:7, 14:26).

One doesn't send oneself, one sends another who is distinct from oneself.

The Trinity--one God in three distinct divine persons--is presented in NT teaching from the beginning.

 

[Eleanor]

Israel kings were spiritual, anointed by God, some fell though. No worldly king even knows God. If Christ returned-where is Gods kingdom and all its promises? Do you know anything about Gods kingdom rule=a govt headed by Gods appointed king.

Jesus answered that question when he was here:

The kingdom of God is here now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:18),
it is everlasting (Lk 1:33), there is no other coming kingdom of God.
it is not of this world, earthly (Mt 18:36),
it is spiritual, hidden and within (Lk 17:20-21) the hearts where he reigns and rules.

Keeping in mind that your interpretation of prophetic riddles, not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8), disagrees with Jesus' teaching regarding the kingdom of God.

 

[Keiw1]

The title "kings of the earth" is not the same thing as a regular monarch, such as King David, King Solomon, etc.. Specifically, the scripture references I gave you above concerning the title "kings of the earth" refers to the high priests of the land of Israel who once wore the golden crown with "Holiness to the Lord' engraved on it (Psalms 2:2, Matthew 17:25, Lamentations 4:12, and Revelation 16:14).

God said He had made Israel "a kingdom of priests". Israel's royalty was originally in her high priesthood - not a regular monarch as all the other nations had. In rebellion, the people chose to reject the sole rule of those "kings of the earth" in order to have a king such as the other nations had, but that was not God's original design for their nation.

So, when Revelation gives prophecies regarding those "kings of the earth", this was actions that were performed by high priests in Israel - right up until the time when God physically got rid of that high priesthood for all time in the AD 70 period. This was necessary in order to keep Israel from reverting back to that Levitical system of which they had made a competing idol, compared to Christ's superior Great High Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.

After Christ's AD 70 bodily return to gather all the resurrected saints and return to heaven with them, His kingdom continued to grow, just like the stone which struck one blow to the feet of Daniel's image and caused that image to break into powdered dust on the wind. That "stone" kingdom is continuing to grow today, and its effects will eventually fill the whole habitable world before Christ's final return.

Revelation is to spiritual Israel( little flock(Luke 12:32) not literal Israel.-These=144,000(Rev 14:3) these are bought from the earth= the anointed bride of Christ, will rule on thrones as kings and priests alongside of Jesus( Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)

 

[Keiw1]

As presented to you in post #314, the Trinity has been "served by those who served the true living God" in the NT, for from the beginning of the NT, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are presented in apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16).

1) We have three distinct persons (divine agents), Father, Son and Holy Spirit, presented in the work of salvation:

a)--at its beginning (Luke 1:35),
-----at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Matthew 3:16-17) and
-----in the work of atonement (Hebrews 9:14),

b) the Holy Spirit completing the work (salvation) of the Father through the Son
(Acts 2:38-39; Romans 8:26; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:13-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2),

c) the only way to enter the kingdom of the Father (salvation) is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (John 3:1-15).

2) And Jesus shows the personhoods of three distinct divine agents:

The Son is sent by the Father, in the Father's name (John 5:23, 36, 43).
The Spirit is sent by the Father in the Son's name (John 14:26).
The Spirit is subject to the Son as well as to the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father (John 15:26, 16:7, 14:26).

One doesn't send oneself, one sends another who is distinct from oneself.

The Trinity--one God in three distinct divine persons--is presented in NT teaching from the beginning.

All who serve God represent his name-They live to do his will over self( Matt 7:21)--- Jesus didn't know he was God--John 20:17, Rev 3:12-He NEVER said he was God, he said he was Gods son.

 

[Keiw1]

Jesus answered that question when he was here:

The kingdom of God is here now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:18),
it is everlasting (Lk 1:33), there is no other coming kingdom of God.
it is not of this world, earthly (Mt 18:36),
it is spiritual, hidden and within (Lk 17:20-21) the hearts where he reigns and rules.

Keeping in mind that your interpretation of prophetic riddles, not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8), disagrees with Jesus' teaching regarding the kingdom of God.

Then why hasn't this occurred- Rev 20:14? Rev 21:4????

 

[Eleanor]

All who serve God represent his name-They live to do his will over self( Matt 7:21)--- Jesus didn't know he was God--John 20:17, Rev 3:12-He NEVER said he was God, he said he was Gods son.

He didn't want to die before his time. Even his indication of it got him in trouble.

Before Abraham was, I AM (Jn 8:48-49).

I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me (Jn 6:38, 41-42, 50, 62).

 

[Eleanor]

Then why hasn't this occurred- Rev 20:14? Rev 21:4????

I would say you are interpreting the prophetic riddle, not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8), incorrectly

 

[CrowCross]

No trinity was ever served by one who served the true living God. The holy spirit was added to a trinity god at the council of Constantinople in 381 ce. That means Jesus and every bible writer were taught a single being God=YHWH(Jehovah)

The trinity was presented in Gen 1....Let US make man in OUR image. I'll grant you it didn't spell it out as the us could have been two or more...BUT, as the bible continued to unfold, especially in the New Testament it makes it overly clear that Jesus as well as the Holy Spirit is God.

You can read about the couple who dropped dead in the book of Acts who lied to God, the Holy Spirit.

 

[Keiw1]

He didn't want to die before his time. Even his indication of it got him in trouble.

Before Abraham was, I AM (Jn 8:48-49).

I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me (Jn 6:38, 41-42, 50, 62).

There is no- i am that i am in the Hebrew OT-I will be what i will be is the correct translating of that Hebrew statement. Only in error filled trinity translations has i am that i am, to mislead because Jesus said i am-Jesus answered the Pharisees honestly-i am= he lived before Abraham.

 

[Keiw1]

I would say you are interpreting the prophetic riddle, not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8), incorrectly

Its no riddle, they are promises.

 

[Keiw1]

The trinity was presented in Gen 1....Let US make man in OUR image. I'll grant you it didn't spell it out as the us could have been two or more...BUT, as the bible continued to unfold, especially in the New Testament it makes it overly clear that Jesus as well as the Holy Spirit is God.

You can read about the couple who dropped dead in the book of Acts who lied to God, the Holy Spirit.

Let us=YHWH(Jehovah)= the true living God and the one whom he created things through= his Master worker= Jesus, the one beside God during the creation-Prov 8:30)-He gives God all credit at prov 8

 

[CrowCross]

Let us=YHWH(Jehovah)= the true living God and the one whom he created things through= his Master worker= Jesus, the one beside God during the creation-Prov 8:30)-He gives God all credit at prov 8

John tells us while inspired by the Holy Spirit..that the Word is God and the Word became flesh..Jesus....which means Jesus is one of the "us".

 

[Eleanor]

Its no riddle,

God disagrees (Nu 12:8).

 

[Eleanor]

There is no- i am that i am in the Hebrew OT-I will be what i will be is the correct translating of that Hebrew statement. Only in error filled trinity translations has i am that i am, to mislead because Jesus said i am-Jesus answered the Pharisees honestly-i am= he lived before Abraham.

Or God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you." (Ex 3:14)

 

[Keiw1]

John tells us while inspired by the Holy Spirit..that the Word is God and the Word became flesh..Jesus....which means Jesus is one of the "us".

I explained the reality of John 1:1 in the Greek lexicons. A god(Theon) was given to the word, while Ton Theon was given to the true God. To show the difference from a capitol G or a small g.

 

[Keiw1]

Or God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you." (Ex 3:14)

Hebrew scholars say no it is not in their Hebrew written OT, it translates- i will be what i will be.

 

[Keiw1]

God disagrees (Nu 12:8).

Its a riddle to the ones in darkness. God would not contradict himself-- We can see the Father( qualities) in Jesus as well, yet no one saw the Father.

 

[Eleanor]

Hebrew scholars say no it is not in their Hebrew written OT, it translates- i will be what i will be.

Other Hebrew scholars say otherwise.