Did Christ actually suffer eternal torment on our behalf?

[Keiw1]

Tell that to Paul and John....not us.

Jesus told you-Yet you outright refuse to believe him-thus how can one claim to be his follower and then turn and not believe him?

 

[Keiw1]

Apostolic teaching (Jn 1:1, 14) authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) disagrees with you.

The NT identifies Jesus as the YHWH of the OT in

Mt 3:3, Lk 1:67-68, 76 (Isa 40:3) - Jesus is the YHWH of whom the voice calling in the wilderness (John the Baptist) prepared the way.

Ro 10:9, 13 (Joel 2:32) - Paul teaches Jesus is the YHWH of Joel's prophecy that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved."

Heb 1:6 (Dt 32:43) - Heb quotes Moses' song referring to YHWH and says it applies to Jesus.

Rev 1:12-18 (Isa 44:6, 48:12) - the man in the vision is Jesus (Rev 1:18, 2:8) who identifies himself as the First and the Last which is YHWH identification of himself.

Rev 21:6, 22:12-13 (Rev 1:8) - the man in the vision (Jesus) identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8, which is YHWH.

Rev 21:5-7 (Rev 20:11-13) -Jesus, the one on the throne (Rev 20:11-13 with Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39), is God (Rev 21:7).

The Elohim and YHWH who created all things (Ge 1:1, Is 44:24, Jer 10:16) is Jesus (Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10).

Wow pure twisting of reality. How sad.
Cathocisms own encyclopedia says the apostolic Fathers knew 0 of God being a trinity.

 

[CrowCross]

Neither did. They wouldn't contradict Jesus-the great apostasy( 2 Thess 2:3) translating causes the contradiction.

They didn't contradict Jesus...even Jesus said and did things only God could do. But as I said, Paul and John both spoke of Jesus divinity. Even Thomas called Jesus God.

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus told you-Yet you outright refuse to believe him-thus how can one claim to be his follower and then turn and not believe him?

Jesus told me He was God..... Emmanuel.

 

[ChristB4us]

Who do you follow-Jesus or Thomas?

Jesus testified of Himself that He is God and so that is why I follow Jesus as my Good Shepherd & Friend.

God alone answers prayers, right?

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Unless you believe Mary and the departed saints are also answering prayers, tell me how Jesus can say this IF you believe He was not God?

 

[Eleanor]

Wow pure twisting of reality. How sad.
Cathocisms own encyclopedia says the apostolic Fathers knew 0 of God being a trinity.

Agreed. . .God is Trinity, three persons in one God, i.e., God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

 

[Keiw1]

They didn't contradict Jesus...even Jesus said and did things only God could do. But as I said, Paul and John both spoke of Jesus divinity. Even Thomas called Jesus God.

And Jesus teaches--The one who sent him =Father-IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD( John 17:3)= 100% truth. contradiction errors are found in every altered trinity translation. By satans will to mislead, through the great apostasy( 2 Thess 2:3)(Catholicism and all her branches.

 

[Keiw1]

Jesus told me He was God..... Emmanuel.

Jesus didn't claim to be Immanuel. Another made that statement-- Not God in the flesh, but God doing it all through Jesus and God giving Jesus everything he teaches and all authority--Its all Gods will.

 

[Keiw1]

Jesus testified of Himself that He is God and so that is why I follow Jesus as my Good Shepherd & Friend.

God alone answers prayers, right?

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Unless you believe Mary and the departed saints are also answering prayers, tell me how Jesus can say this IF you believe He was not God?

All prayers end in--i pray through your son Jesus Christ. Mary and saints do not answer prayers--Do you EVER listen to Jesus? He said clearly--You MUST then pray this way--Our Father.

 

[Keiw1]

Agreed. . .God is Trinity, three persons in one God, i.e., God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

No bible writer ever knew God as a trinity, nor did Jesus. Nor any Israelite while worshipping the true God.

 

[CrowCross]

And Jesus teaches--The one who sent him =Father-IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD( John 17:3)= 100% truth. contradiction errors are found in every altered trinity translation. By satans will to mislead, through the great apostasy( 2 Thess 2:3)(Catholicism and all her branches.

FACE PALM.....do we need to once again discuss the kenosis that you say never happened?

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus didn't claim to be Immanuel. Another made that statement-- Not God in the flesh, but God doing it all through Jesus and God giving Jesus everything he teaches and all authority--Its all Gods will.

You just don't understand the kenosis.....do ya?

 

[ChristB4us]

All prayers end in--i pray through your son Jesus Christ. Mary and saints do not answer prayers--Do you EVER listen to Jesus? He said clearly--You MUST then pray this way--Our Father.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
You cannot honor the Father by honoring the Father when it is His will for us to only honor the Son if we wish to honor the Father.
The modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. has broadened the way by including the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, but even though the Holy Spirit is God and One of the 3 Witnesses within the One God, there is only one way to approach God the Father in anything be it worship, prayer, or fellowship and that is through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. The glory of the Father rests on the glory of His Son as God.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Do note 1 John 2:22-23 signifies that Jesus is God as being the Christ. To deny the deity of Jesus Christ is to deny the deity of the Father. By acknowledging the deity of Christ is how you are not denying the Father.

 

[Eleanor]

No bible writer ever knew God as a trinity, nor did Jesus. Nor any Israelite while worshipping the true God.

No Bible writer ever knew God specifically as "sovereign," but it is taught throughout Scripture,
as the Trinity is likewise seen throughout the NT in the following:

The NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) presents the Trinity from the beginning:

1) We have three distinct persons (divine agents), Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
presented in the work of salvation:

a)--at its beginning (Luke 1:35),
-----at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Matthew 3:16-17) and
-----in the work of atonement (Hebrews 9:14),

b) the Holy Spirit completing the work (salvation) of the Father through the Son
(Acts 2:38-39; Romans 8:26; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:13-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2),

c) the only way to enter the kingdom of the Father (salvation) is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (John 3:1-15).

2) And Jesus shows the personhoods of three distinct and separate divine agents:

The Son is sent by the Father, in the Father's name (John 5:23, 36, 43).
The Spirit is sent by the Father in the Son's name (John 14:26).
The Spirit is subject to the Son as well as to the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father (John 15:26, 16:7, 14:26).

One doesn't send oneself, one sends another who is separate from oneself.

The Trinity--one God in three distinct divine persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit--is presented in NT teaching from the beginning.

 

[Keiw1]

FACE PALM.....do we need to once again discuss the kenosis that you say never happened?

The better question you should ask is--Why do i refuse to believe Jesus?

 

[Keiw1]

You just don't understand the kenosis.....do ya?

I understand it perfectly. I dont listen to the mass of confusion calling themselves hundreds of different trinity religions= a house divided, they will not stand. They fail this true mark 100%-1Cor 1:10= Unity of thought( ALL of Gods 1 truth) no division.
A 10 year old can understand-NO DIVISION but hundreds of trinity religions cannot-WHY?

 

[Keiw1]

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
You cannot honor the Father by honoring the Father when it is His will for us to only honor the Son if we wish to honor the Father.
The modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. has broadened the way by including the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, but even though the Holy Spirit is God and One of the 3 Witnesses within the One God, there is only one way to approach God the Father in anything be it worship, prayer, or fellowship and that is through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. The glory of the Father rests on the glory of His Son as God.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Do note 1 John 2:22-23 signifies that Jesus is God as being the Christ. To deny the deity of Jesus Christ is to deny the deity of the Father. By acknowledging the deity of Christ is how you are not denying the Father.

Yes, deny that Jesus was the one sent forth from God-the Messiah. That is what those scriptures are saying. He is not God, he is Gods son. Sons are made. God always was and always will be.

 

[Keiw1]

No Bible writer ever knew God specifically as "sovereign," but it is taught throughout Scripture,
as the Trinity is likewise seen throughout the NT in the following:

The NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) presents the Trinity from the beginning:

1) We have three distinct persons (divine agents), Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
presented in the work of salvation:

a)--at its beginning (Luke 1:35),
-----at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Matthew 3:16-17) and
-----in the work of atonement (Hebrews 9:14),

b) the Holy Spirit completing the work (salvation) of the Father through the Son
(Acts 2:38-39; Romans 8:26; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:13-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2),

c) the only way to enter the kingdom of the Father (salvation) is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (John 3:1-15).

2) And Jesus shows the personhoods of three distinct and separate divine agents:

The Son is sent by the Father, in the Father's name (John 5:23, 36, 43).
The Spirit is sent by the Father in the Son's name (John 14:26).
The Spirit is subject to the Son as well as to the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father (John 15:26, 16:7, 14:26).

One doesn't send oneself, one sends another who is separate from oneself.

The Trinity--one God in three distinct divine persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit--is presented in NT teaching from the beginning.

Your last sentence calls Jesus a liar--He teaches-The one who sent him( Father) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD. John 17:3) and it means eternal life to know that fact.) We all must choose who we believe--You are choosing a house divided, they will not stand-divided because they are a mass of confusion. They fail this true mark(1Cor 1:10) 100%= Unity of thought( ALL of Gods 1 truth) no division.

 

[CrowCross]

The better question you should ask is--Why do i refuse to believe Jesus?

A person refuses to believe in Jesus because the the Father hasn't granted them the ability to believe. John 6:65

Do you have another reason as to why you don't believe in Jesus as the sacrificial substitutionary atonement for sin?

 

[ChristB4us]

Yes, deny that Jesus was the one sent forth from God-the Messiah. That is what those scriptures are saying. He is not God, he is Gods son. Sons are made. God always was and always will be.

Since God is the Messiah as God is the Saviour, you should consider why scriptures also gives those titles of Jesus Christ as the Messiah and the Saviour for He is God.

If Jesus is not God, then how can He be in you along with the Father & the Holy Spirit?

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him..... 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus always was God. Jesus had existed as the Word of God by how all things were made before His incarnation as the Son of Man.