Did Christ actually suffer eternal torment on our behalf?

[Keiw1]

What was Jesus Christ crucified for?

#1. Unpaid parking tickets

#2 Overdue library book

#3. Leaving the toilet seat up

#4. For not doing the squiggly in the Wal-Mart cheer

#5. Blasphemy for declaring Himself to be God

#6 I don't know

Jesus didn't commit blasphemy-liars said he did. Then they had him killed because they hated his guts. He exposed them. He told them their father was the devil.

 

[Keiw1]

And does that make what God said, ". . .no one may see me (my face) and live" (Ex 33:30) a pure lie if you are correct?

Yes-no one( mortals) can look at God. And no mortal ever saw him.

 

[Keiw1]

@Keiw1

I believe Moses was asking to see all of God and thus hence His glory for why at that time, no man can see His face in all His glory.

Exodus 33:17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

In God's holiness, for Moses to see His face in ALL His glory would cause him to die and not just shrink back from the Holiness of God as his sinful nature would compel him to do.

So man has seen God and even His face, but not in all His glory which was what Moses was asking the Lord to show him for which at that time, he could not without consequence still being in his fallen state of sin.

Was Moses a man? No man has EVER seen God. He saw Gods glory.

 

[ChristB4us]

Jesus didn't commit blasphemy-liars said he did. Then they had him killed because they hated his guts. He exposed them. He told them their father was the devil.

How can the liars write the scriptures of the four gospel that the believers are keeping as truth?

That means what Jesus said at His trial is true and the Jews did not believe Him to be God for why they had charged Him with blasphemy.

 

[ChristB4us]

Was Moses a man? No man has EVER seen God. He saw Gods glory.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had seen God face to face and lived as the God they had seen was Jesus before His incarnation and Jesus said so.

Moses was asking to see God's glory for why, as a fallen corruptible man, he could not live if he had seen His face in all His glory. That is not the same way that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had seen His face and lived.

 

[Keiw1]

How can the liars write the scriptures of the four gospel that the believers are keeping as truth?

That means what Jesus said at His trial is true and the Jews did not believe Him to be God for why they had charged Him with blasphemy.

The bible teaches truth-The liars whose father is the devil are the only ones who claimed Jesus said he was equal to God and that he thus blasphemed. reality--Jesus did not blaspheme.

 

[Keiw1]

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had seen God face to face and lived as the God they had seen was Jesus before His incarnation and Jesus said so.

Moses was asking to see God's glory for why, as a fallen corruptible man, he could not live if he had seen His face in all His glory. That is not the same way that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had seen His face and lived.

God said--No man has ever seen God- through his bible writer. Are you saying God lied? I say there is alternate meaning in those OT passages in light of Gods truth that no man has ever seen God.

 

[CrowCross]

What was Jesus Christ crucified for?

#1. Unpaid parking tickets

#2 Overdue library book

#3. Leaving the toilet seat up

#4. For not doing the squiggly in the Wal-Mart cheer

#5. Blasphemy for declaring Himself to be God

#6 I don't know

Homerun.

 

[CrowCross]

The bible teaches truth-The liars whose father is the devil are the only ones who claimed Jesus said he was equal to God and that he thus blasphemed. reality--Jesus did not blaspheme.

Paul is a liar????

 

[CrowCross]

God said--No man has ever seen God- through his bible writer. Are you saying God lied? I say there is alternate meaning in those OT passages in light of Gods truth that no man has ever seen God.

The bible says every man sins....that would include Jesus...right?

 

[ChristB4us]

The bible teaches truth-The liars whose father is the devil are the only ones who claimed Jesus said he was equal to God and that he thus blasphemed. reality--Jesus did not blaspheme.

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

Do you consider the ramification of what the disciple Matthew had recorded of His words at His trial?

Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else....
21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. 12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
This is why they had condemned Him for blasphemy by saying they shall see Him sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven as that was Jesus declaring Himself as God for being the Christ, the actual Son of the living God.
How can God the Father share His glory as Saviour with another "if" He alone is the Saviour? How can God the Father declare Himself as Saviour unless He had Another Witness that is also the Saviour as well?

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

There are plenty of scripture testifying to God being the Saviour & Jesus being the Saviour for why your false religious teaching is preventing you in seeing that Jesus is God.

 

[ChristB4us]

Homerun.

May God cause the increase.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[Keiw1]

Paul is a liar????

Paul didn't say Jesus claimed to be God--Maybe as Saul he did bit not when he was called Paul.

 

[Keiw1]

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

Do you consider the ramification of what the disciple Matthew had recorded of His words at His trial?

Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else....
21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. 12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
This is why they had condemned Him for blasphemy by saying they shall see Him sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven as that was Jesus declaring Himself as God for being the Christ, the actual Son of the living God.
How can God the Father share His glory as Saviour with another "if" He alone is the Saviour? How can God the Father declare Himself as Saviour unless He had Another Witness that is also the Saviour as well?

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

There are plenty of scripture testifying to God being the Saviour & Jesus being the Saviour for why your false religious teaching is preventing you in seeing that Jesus is God.

Jesus isn't God-Jesus has a God just like us-John 20:17--They are one in purpose.

 

[ChristB4us]

Jesus isn't God-Jesus has a God just like us-John 20:17--They are one in purpose.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

That is your reference but it does not deny what was written before that reference since you missed the significance of verse 17.

John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

The only way Jesus could ascend to Heaven is by not being just a man but God Himself since He as God, came down from heaven.

Now to expound on John 20:17 by reading on in that same chapter;

John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Jesus did not correct nor rebuke Thomas for blasphemy for saying that unto Him that He is his Lord & his God.

May God cause the increase for I cannot.

 

[CrowCross]

Paul didn't say Jesus claimed to be God--Maybe as Saul he did bit not when he was called Paul.

Paul said Jesus was God. So did John.

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus isn't God-Jesus has a God just like us-John 20:17--They are one in purpose.

Tell that to Paul and John....not us.

 

[Eleanor]

Jesus isn't God-Jesus has a God just like us-John 20:17--They are one in purpose.

Apostolic teaching (Jn 1:1, 14) authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) disagrees with you.

The NT identifies Jesus as the YHWH of the OT in

Mt 3:3, Lk 1:67-68, 76 (Isa 40:3) - Jesus is the YHWH of whom the voice calling in the wilderness (John the Baptist) prepared the way.

Ro 10:9, 13 (Joel 2:32) - Paul teaches Jesus is the YHWH of Joel's prophecy that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved."

Heb 1:6 (Dt 32:43) - Heb quotes Moses' song referring to YHWH and says it applies to Jesus.

Rev 1:12-18 (Isa 44:6, 48:12) - the man in the vision is Jesus (Rev 1:18, 2:8) who identifies himself as the First and the Last which is YHWH identification of himself.

Rev 21:6, 22:12-13 (Rev 1:8) - the man in the vision (Jesus) identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8, which is YHWH.

Rev 21:5-7 (Rev 20:11-13) -Jesus, the one on the throne (Rev 20:11-13 with Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39), is God (Rev 21:7).

The Elohim and YHWH who created all things (Ge 1:1, Is 44:24, Jer 10:16) is Jesus (Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10).

 

[Keiw1]

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

That is your reference but it does not deny what was written before that reference since you missed the significance of verse 17.

John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

The only way Jesus could ascend to Heaven is by not being just a man but God Himself since He as God, came down from heaven.

Now to expound on John 20:17 by reading on in that same chapter;

John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Jesus did not correct nor rebuke Thomas for blasphemy for saying that unto Him that He is his Lord & his God.

May God cause the increase for I cannot.

Who do you follow-Jesus or Thomas?

 

[Keiw1]

Paul said Jesus was God. So did John.

Neither did. They wouldn't contradict Jesus-the great apostasy( 2 Thess 2:3) translating causes the contradiction.