Did Christ actually suffer eternal torment on our behalf?

[Keiw1]

Jehovah is a name Jesus went by before His incarnation.

YHWH said to my Lord-- proves you are in error. Even the psalmist knew Jesus has a God-Psalm 45:7

 

[Keiw1]

I know....and you should know what the word means if your going to keep telling usf your "biblical truths"

Kenosis....learn about it....as your theology doesn't reflect it.

How do you and your Kenosis get by these 2 major facts? In every translation on earth the teachings of Jesus back the JW teachers? And the facts of Israelite true God worship back the JW teachers?

 

[Keiw1]

However, that is not what the word of God states in Ge 32:30, Ex 24:10-11.

There are many teachings that carry alternate meanings and are symbolic in Gods written word.
Like this example the blind guides do not understand--When Elijah was caught away in the chariot to heaven, Heaven meant our atmosphere, not Gods dwelling place. He retired to another part of the earth. He wrote a letter to the king, 10 years after the chariot event occurred-2Chron 21:12-15-- you see how certain things are not literal as they appear.

 

[Eleanor]

There are many teachings that carry alternate meanings and are symbolic in Gods written word.

And if you think Ge 32:30, and Ex 24:10-11 are some of them, further study is called for.

Like this example the blind guides do not understand--When Elijah was caught away in the chariot to heaven, Heaven meant our atmosphere, not Gods dwelling place. He retired to another part of the earth. He wrote a letter to the king, 10 years after the chariot event occurred-2Chron 21:12-15-- you see how certain things are not literal as they appear.

Hopefully further study would assist in your seeing the difference.

 

[Keiw1]

And if you think Ge 32:30, and Ex 24:10-11 are some of them, further study is called for.

Hopefully further study would assist in your seeing the difference.

I already know--The NT says--No man has EVER seen God--Gods bible does not contradict itself-alternate meanings are carried by certain teachings.

 

[ChristB4us]

YHWH said to my Lord-- proves you are in error. Even the psalmist knew Jesus has a God-Psalm 45:7

Matthew 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Can you answer His question in verse 45?

 

[Runningman]

The Word who was God became flesh in Jesus of Nazareth (Jn 1:1, 14).
Jesus is the life in 1 Jn. The "word" (it) is the gospel.

1 John 1:1-3 refers to the Word as an it. The word "Word" refers to the Greek word logos and logos doesn't mean Jesus, or Son, or Christ, etc. It refers to a a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy. God spoke and created Jesus from His plans in His foreknowledge and predestination, hence, according to John 1:14 Jesus was begotten as a son straight from the heart of God.

Do we agree that God is not both an it and a He? It would seem that the best way to reconcile this problem is to seek an alternative explanation. I recommend the below from the Revised English Version (REV). The also included a footnote explaining why they translated it this way.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and what God was the Word was.*

*The absence of the article (“the”) before “God” in the Greek makes the word “God” qualitative, which can be understood as “the Word had the character of God,” meaning that it was godly.

Sorry.
The word is the gospel (it).The life is Jesus.
The Greek text reads: "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and we bear witness and we announce to you the life eternal, which was with the Father and manifested to us,"

Let's look at it and break it down.

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

1. That which was from the beginning = the Word of life
2. The life that was revealed = it was with the Father and revealed to them
3.John 1:4 In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.

John 1:1 refers to the logos being God because it is godly. It's a common misunderstanding to see the "Word" as Jesus.

No, not in the light of the NT.
The "word" (logos) of Jn 1:1 is a person, Jesus of Nazareth (Jn 1:14). Jesus is an actual being.
The "word of the life", "the life," "the eternal life" in 1 Jn 1:1-2 all refer to the person, Jesus, because he is the living one who has life in himself (Jn 11:25, 14:6), who is the source of life and sovereign over life (5:11), who is eternal life (5:20).
As truth is a person (Jn 14:6), so eternal life is a person (1 Jn 5:20, 11).
The "word" refers to the gospel, the gospel of the life (Jesus).

See above.

The Greek text of 1 Jn 1:1-2 reads: "1) What was (past tense) from the beginning (the life), what we have heard, what we have seen with the eyes of us, what we beheld and the hands of us touched, concerning the word of life: 2) and the life was manifested, and we have seen and we bear witness and we announce to you the life eternal, which was with the Father and was manifested to us."

In 1 Jn 1:1 "word" does not refer to Jesus, it refers to the gospel, while "life" refers to Jesus.

The Word who was God (Jn 1:1) became man in the created body of Jesus (Jn 1:14). Jesus was both God and man, the God-man.

It refers to Jesus being created. The context should inform every translation. John 1:9 says "The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world" and Jesus was a man who came into the world. Therefore the true Light is God and the light Jesus had as a man came from God, not himself. John 1:14 says Jesus was begotten, i.e., he didn't exist before he was begotten.

 

[CrowCross]

How do you and your Kenosis get by these 2 major facts? In every translation on earth the teachings of Jesus back the JW teachers? And the facts of Israelite true God worship back the JW teachers?

LOL....you still don't know what the kenosis is...am I right?

There is no salvation in the JW false gospel. The way I see it if God the father doesn't open your heart and grant you the bility to come to Christ you won't come to know the true Christ Jesus. All I can do is pray that Gofd has mercy on you and saves you. You've been told the truth...stop denying it.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Did Christ actually suffer eternal torment on our behalf?​

Of COURSE NOT, silly. That was never a requirement to be a SAVIOR!!! The requirement was to be the PERFECT BLOOD SACRIFICE.

A PERFECT HUMAN, had to be a BLOOD SIN OFFERING!!!

And Jesus did it, since nobody else could. Simple as that. Jesus' Ressurection proves that His Sacrifice as acceptable to God, and when we put our FAITH (gifted by God) in that sin offering, we're Born Again in Him, and cleansed from all sin.

 

[Eleanor]

1 John 1:1-3 refers to the Word as an it. The word "Word" refers to the Greek word logos and logos doesn't mean Jesus, or Son, or Christ, etc. It refers to a a word, speech, divine utterance,

Agreed.

However in Greek philosophy, the First Cause and the great Intelligence and Reason behind the Universe was called logos,
and that is the meaning John is using in Jn 1:1, 14 in his gospel to the Greeks (Gentiles).
John opens his gospel with the astounding claim that the recently crucified and despised Jesus of Nazareth is the eternal logos, source of all wisdom and power, who became flesh in order to reveal God to us.

But in 1 Jn 1:1-2, the word is the gospel, and the life is Jesus. The "word of life" is the gospel of Jesus. "The life appeared, we have seen it. . ."

 

[Eleanor]

There are many teachings that carry alternate meanings and are symbolic in Gods written word.

I already know--The NT says--No man has EVER seen God--Gods bible does not contradict itself-alternate meanings are carried by certain teachings.

Ge 32:30, and Ex 24:10-11 do not carry alternate meanings, nor are they symbolic.
Both Jacob and Moses (regarding the seventy elders) meant exactly what they said.

They did not realize, however, that they saw God in a form he took on himself temporarily for the occasion.

But now, Christ has made him known (Jn 1:14, 18, 12:45, 14:8-9).

 

[Keiw1]

Matthew 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Can you answer His question in verse 45?

It is YHWH who makes Jesus' enemies his footstool. 44=YHWH said to my Lord( Jesus)--David is being referred to as the writer of the Psalms. Not the one making the enemies Jesus' footstool. David called Jesus Lord by writing the words. Jesus came through Davids lineage that is what Davids son refers to.

 

[Keiw1]

LOL....you still don't know what the kenosis is...am I right?

There is no salvation in the JW false gospel. The way I see it if God the father doesn't open your heart and grant you the bility to come to Christ you won't come to know the true Christ Jesus. All I can do is pray that Gofd has mercy on you and saves you. You've been told the truth...stop denying it.

One must come to the Christ so they can get to the Father--Jesus sends the ones who obey him to his Father--Remember--No one comes to the Father but through me.

 

[Keiw1]

Ge 32:30, and Ex 24:10-11 do not carry alternate meanings, nor are they symbolic.
Both Jacob and Moses (regarding the seventy elders) meant exactly what they said.

They did not realize, however, that they saw God in a form he took on himself temporarily for the occasion.

But now, Christ has made him known (Jn 1:14, 18, 12:45, 14:8-9).

No man has ever seen God would be a pure lie if you were correct. God inspired those words-is he a liar or is their alternate meanings associated with some teachings?

 

[ChristB4us]

It is YHWH who makes Jesus' enemies his footstool. 44=YHWH said to my Lord( Jesus)--David is being referred to as the writer of the Psalms. Not the one making the enemies Jesus' footstool. David called Jesus Lord by writing the words. Jesus came through Davids lineage that is what Davids son refers to.

The truth is God the Father is speaking to God the Son, but only the Father can reveal His Son to you as God.

 

[CrowCross]

One must come to the Christ so they can get to the Father--Jesus sends the ones who obey him to his Father--Remember--No one comes to the Father but through me.

How much obedience?

back to the kenosis....have you learned what it is yet?

 

[Keiw1]

The truth is God the Father is speaking to God the Son, but only the Father can reveal His Son to you as God.

Jesus didn't know he was God-John 20:17, because he isn't.

 

[ChristB4us]

Jesus didn't know he was God-John 20:17, because he isn't.

What was Jesus Christ crucified for?

#1. Unpaid parking tickets

#2 Overdue library book

#3. Leaving the toilet seat up

#4. For not doing the squiggly in the Wal-Mart cheer

#5. Blasphemy for declaring Himself to be God

#6 I don't know

 

[Eleanor]

No man has ever seen God would be a pure lie if you were correct. God inspired those words-is he a liar or is their alternate meanings associated with some teachings?

And does that make what God said, ". . .no one may see me (my face) and live" (Ex 33:30) a pure lie if you are correct?

 

[ChristB4us]

And does that make what God said, ". . .no one may see me (my face) and live" (Ex 33:30) a pure lie if you are correct?

@Keiw1

I believe Moses was asking to see all of God and thus hence His glory for why at that time, no man can see His face in all His glory.

Exodus 33:17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

In God's holiness, for Moses to see His face in ALL His glory would cause him to die and not just shrink back from the Holiness of God as his sinful nature would compel him to do.

So man has seen God and even His face, but not in all His glory which was what Moses was asking the Lord to show him for which at that time, he could not without consequence still being in his fallen state of sin.