Our ontology in Heaven & "Made in His Image"

[makesends]

Of the many discussions I've been in concerning what it means that "we are made in His Image", most do not begin to touch on the universal aspect that the term may signify, nor, particularly, the end result that may be implied in the phrase, "made in the Image of God" that has everything to do with what it means to be Human.

There is a certain appeal to the Arminian (and even Pelagian) notions of freewill and spontaneity of the creature, in that it seems indisputable that we are of some [almost mathematical] "real" value, as members of the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ, etc. It seems reasonable to think that God considers us to be a welcome 'addition' to his economy (if, as I believe, 'his economy' is what Heaven is), and further implications, such as the delight of the Husband in exploring the person of His Bride and discovering her beauty and attributes, as one reads in the Song of Solomon, and in enjoying her fellowship with Him.

(Most of you are familiar by now that I find myself teaching that we are even "The Dwelling Place of God", because it seems to me part and parcel with the whole of Scripture, in all aspects of Scripture and doctrine. My main disclaimer on the matter is only because of lack of it as doctrine as such, within Orthodoxy.) But being THE DWELLING PLACE OF GOD necessarily implies (to my mind, at least) specificity of every component. He's not just building some old house.

Within the many different (though they are one) "Attributes of God" we find his Aseity proving his Omnipotence, Simplicity, Perfection and Immutability: God has no "needs", he lacks nothing; he is self-existent and infinitely self-sufficient. So how can it be that we are of particular value to God?

(One relative of mine has gone so far, in an attempt to resolve this apparent logical contradiction, to say that he considers the Bride of Christ to be "the fourth person of the trinity", (admittedly an outrageous notion and non-orthodox, and dangerously fraught with possible implications drawn by those who would misunderstand why he puts it like that.))

Someone reading this may be compelled to comment from the idea (which seems to me dangerously human-derived) of Love "needing to express itself". I won't deny this, and if someone responding to this wants to go there, welcome —particularly welcome if you can do it without human sophistry. I would delight in discovering from Scripture that it is so, that Love by definition means that God (also by definition, or by description of his attributes) logically-'must' express his love onto some person external to the Trinity.

There are so many Scripture passages relating one way or another to this theme that I can't begin to list them. But, I am pretty sure that the answer is somewhere in the meaning of being "IN HIM". The teachings of our being "in Him", however, to my mind, at least, prohibit any worth of our own, or any ontology of our own, to be an 'addition' to Himself, (as we might find ourselves conceiving of the notion, 'addition'), nor, on the other hand, of us actually being part of Eternal, Infinite God, particularly as we might find implication supporting our own ontological "eternity past".

The notion of the Simplicity of God applying to this subject make me smile inside because I am sure there is some kind of 'play on words' (yet not words, but concepts), or even a 'pun' of sorts, going on here, within the notions I mentioned above concerning infinite-God's delight in Himself, and so we 'in Him'. Not exactly "discovery" as we might term it, but...?

My frustrations at the limits of my human mind make me smile and even chuckle at the thought of seeing Him as He is, and knowing Him as we are known, and from supposing that WE are the Sons of God to be revealed there.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Actually , I think the answer lies more with God still than with us in specific.

Love with God is covenant and relationship, a ratified covenant in his blood. This is the deepest expression of God's love - it's not necessarily emotional love, it's "I love you enough to enter into a covenanted relationship with you, I love you enough to share myself with you". Now, we can lay whatever emotions you might want on top of that as or if Scripture allows, but mainly what we have to say about God's love is that it's ratified covenant and relationship.

Why? Because of what God is. What does Scripture say, we love him because he first us. 1 John 4:19

God is worthy of worship. How do we know? Because he loved us and covenanted in relationship with us.

However, before God covenanted with us, God had a dynamic relationship with himself, in the Father, Son, Holy Spirit relationship is love wholly perfect and separate from anything to do with us.

God's very nature is relationship and that was expressed from eternity to eternity within the triune nature of the Godhead itself. Every attribute of His nature is perfectly expressed even without our ever being created. We neither increase nor decrease what God is by nature, however by nature God is love - meaning, through covenantal relationship God expresses his love.

We notice in Scripture the Father glorifies the Son and likewise the Son Glorifies the Father. All is love of the other person of the Godhead, all is sacrifice for the other person of the Godhead.

I think a covenantal relationship with His beautiful bride lain at the feet of the Father in worship for all eternity is kind of just, perfectly fitting, and a gift for the Father a thing in God's very nature to create.

Creation in covenant with God is the perfect expression of His nature. Ultimately, we worship God because he is worthy, and we know he's worthy because of this exact expression of that nature.

It is kinda cool to be part of a gift our Lord could give the Father... I see this from the verse that says when all is done and the last enemy conquered all will be laid at the Fathers feet, that's seemed to me like a gift, as if to be presented, all the biblical language leans gift to me, for the Father.

"When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all." 1 Corinthians 15:28

Christ gave himself as the acceptable animal sacrifice so he could present us, the bride, as gift to the Father that is acceptable and pure. Perfect expression of worship, perfect offering. Something along these lines anyway. This is love and worship between the members of the Trinity for one another, and us caught up in their love.


Hopefully I'm not wildly off track here. Do you need me to run around looking up verses or is this good?

 

[makesends]

Actually , I think the answer lies more with God still than with us in specific.

Love with God is covenant and relationship, a ratified covenant in his blood. This is the deepest expression of God's love - it's not necessarily emotional love, it's "I love you enough to enter into a covenanted relationship with you, I love you enough to share myself with you". Now, we can lay whatever emotions you might want on top of that as or if Scripture allows, but mainly what we have to say about God's love is that it's ratified covenant and relationship.

Why? Because of what God is. What does Scripture say, we love him because he first us. 1 John 4:19

God is worthy of worship. How do we know? Because he loved us and covenanted in relationship with us.

However, before God covenanted with us, God had a dynamic relationship with himself, in the Father, Son, Holy Spirit relationship is love wholly perfect and separate from anything to do with us.

God's very nature is relationship and that was expressed from eternity to eternity within the triune nature of the Godhead itself. Every attribute of His nature is perfectly expressed even without our ever being created. We neither increase nor decrease what God is by nature, however by nature God is love - meaning, through covenantal relationship God expresses his love.

We notice in Scripture the Father glorifies the Son and likewise the Son Glorifies the Father. All is love of the other person of the Godhead, all is sacrifice for the other person of the Godhead.

I think a covenantal relationship with His beautiful bride lain at the feet of the Father in worship for all eternity is kind of just, perfectly fitting, and a gift for the Father a thing in God's very nature to create.

Creation in covenant with God is the perfect expression of His nature. Ultimately, we worship God because he is worthy, and we know he's worthy because of this exact expression of that nature.

It is kinda cool to be part of a gift our Lord could give the Father... I see this from the verse that says when all is done and the last enemy conquered all will be laid at the Fathers feet, that's seemed to me like a gift, as if to be presented, all the biblical language leans gift to me, for the Father.

"When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all." 1 Corinthians 15:28

Christ gave himself as the acceptable animal sacrifice so he could present us, the bride, as gift to the Father that is acceptable and pure. Perfect expression of worship, perfect offering. Something along these lines anyway. This is love and worship between the members of the Trinity for one another, and us caught up in their love.


Hopefully I'm not wildly off track here. Do you need me to run around looking up verses or is this good?

Thanks for responding. Lol, at least now I've got one response!

I'm having a little trouble figuring out what you're trying to say here. You seem to start with what sounds like you think I think this is specifically about us. (I certainly did not mean that, but only to treat first with a defining of the terms of the question/apparent contradiction within the anthropology, or rather, within the ontology of man.) My question is in how/what way we are important to God. But this paragraph is irrelevant, I think.

Occurs to me as I was thinking, lol, that I could point out easily enough that it is not NOW that we add up to much in his eyes, but that is kind of a cheap argument, besides being short on facts.

Going to take me a little time to absorb what you are saying here. Maybe it's something to do with the gift of love to the Father (and the Bride of the Son, from the Father, though you didn't really go there), that is of itself a worthy consideration in understanding the dynamics of what we are there, whether ontologically something different or not, (though your analysis would seem to imply an ontological difference—perhaps even our own ontology?)

 

[Hazelelponi]

Thanks for responding. Lol, at least now I've got one response!

I'm having a little trouble figuring out what you're trying to say here. You seem to start with what sounds like you think I think this is specifically about us. (I certainly did not mean that, but only to treat first with a defining of the terms of the question/apparent contradiction within the anthropology, or rather, within the ontology of man.) My question is in how/what way we are important to God. But this paragraph is irrelevant, I think.

Occurs to me as I was thinking, lol, that I could point out easily enough that it is not NOW that we add up to much in his eyes, but that is kind of a cheap argument, besides being short on facts.

Going to take me a little time to absorb what you are saying here. Maybe it's something to do with the gift of love to the Father (and the Bride of the Son, from the Father, though you didn't really go there), that is of itself a worthy consideration in understanding the dynamics of what we are there, whether ontologically something different or not, (though your analysis would seem to imply an ontological difference—perhaps even our own ontology?)

I think we are in an almost circular experience with God. God glorifies Himself through the Triune nature because God is worthy, God is worthy because of the purity of His nature best seen, experienced, expressed, worshipped in this way, because of the purity and Holiness of His Glory.

How and in what way are we important to God - A.) we are an expression of God's love, an expression of the Son's love for the Father and the Holy Spirit, and an expression of the Holy Spirits love for both the Son and the Father and the Fathers desire to glorify the persons of the Godhead - as well as an expression of God's love for a child, a bride, a brother.

Was there ever a time we were not conceived of in eternity (outside of linear time)? No or if so not for long. I believe there was only a time we didn't exist (within linear time). We are from before the foundation of the earth, though a mere creation of the Godhead created as an expression the covenantal and relationship nature of the Godhead, and we express that relationship and covenantal nature towards the Godhead in return. (In His image we were created, to be an expression of relationship and covenant, the highest expression of God's nature)

Make sense? Lol...

I think I explained better the first time. We were created for worship. That's all, but all is worship.

 

[Arial]

It is kinda cool to be part of a gift our Lord could give the Father... I see this from the verse that says when all is done and the last enemy conquered all will be laid at the Fathers feet, that's seemed to me like a gift, as if to be presented, all the biblical language leans gift to me, for the Father.

Beautiful! It made me think of the spoils of the conquering King, laid at his feet, just as conquering kings in the OT gave offerings of the spoil to God.

 

[Arial]

Thanks for responding. Lol, at least now I've got one response!

You posted Monday and here it is Wednesday and I am just now seeing the thread, by going through "Latest Activity." The presence of threads can quickly get lost, and sometimes never recovered and brought to the attention of members. I have had that happen to a number of mine----either that or lack of interest and it is discouraging. Wish there is some way to resolve that problem.

I am out of time at the moment but will come back to addressing the OP.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Beautiful! It made me think of the spoils of the conquering King, laid at his feet, just as conquering kings in the OT gave offerings of the spoil to God.

Right? That's how I see it!

 

[Arial]

Of the many discussions I've been in concerning what it means that "we are made in His Image", most do not begin to touch on the universal aspect that the term may signify, nor, particularly, the end result that may be implied in the phrase, "made in the Image of God" that has everything to do with what it means to be Human.

I am not sure what you mean by "universal aspect" of made in his image, or "that has everything to do with what it means to be Human." So I will do my best to present my view of what it means to be made in his image. It actually says made in his image and likeness and I do not think that is a redundancy.

I see the "likeness" as having to do with the ways in which we are similar to God, but never exactly like him in any way. This would have to do with our being a living being; a being who makes choices and decisions; one who acts and thinks.

"In his image" refers to our moral responsibility to reflect his moral character.

There is a certain appeal to the Arminian (and even Pelagian) notions of freewill and spontaneity of the creature, in that it seems indisputable that we are of some [almost mathematical] "real" value, as members of the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ, etc. It seems reasonable to think that God considers us to be a welcome 'addition' to his economy (if, as I believe, 'his economy' is what Heaven is), and further implications, such as the delight of the Husband in exploring the person of His Bride and discovering her beauty and attributes, as one reads in the Song of Solomon, and in enjoying her fellowship with Him.

Though there is some truth in that, from the Arminian/Pelagian/ Semi-Pelagian view it is topsy turvy. For one thing, God does not discover anything. He made us. Anything that delights him about us is attributed to Christ and our having been cleansed and purified by him. Nevertheless, he does delight in us.

I would never say "we are a welcome addition". We were created to be citizens of a kingdom, and for his purposes. And that purpose is seen in the end result though it has not arrived yet. At which point we see, not earth going to heaven, but heaven coming to earth. Heaven being the abode of God. It is a kingdom. The kingdom of God. And we see ourselves at that time as different than how we were created. Immortal and incorruptible instead of mortal----able to die--- incorruptible, instead of able to be corrupted.

Within the many different (though they are one) "Attributes of God" we find his Aseity proving his Omnipotence, Simplicity, Perfection and Immutability: God has no "needs", he lacks nothing; he is self-existent and infinitely self-sufficient. So how can it be that we are of particular value to God?

Our value comes from Christ and for Christ. God is giving a people to the Son. I know that does not exactly answer the question you are asking, but I don't think we are actually given that answer in Scripture. I will however touch on what @Hazelelponi said. God does want a relationship with his creatures and his creation. But he is transcendent and invisible. Any relationship must come by him down to us. It is a ladder we cannot climb. He does this through covenant. Covenant is a relationship. And he brings people into that covenant. In the Exodus and Sinai covenant he revealed himself as the one true God. A living God, who speaks and acts and has the power to keep his covenant.

A covenant is God stooping down and entering into our history to redeem a people for his kingdom. He has the same covenant love for those he gives to the Son as he has for the Son and the Son has for him. (John 17). It is a glorious thing and is for his glory. The most simple answer which still leaves the details unanswered, we are by him, through him and for him.

The teachings of our being "in Him", however, to my mind, at least, prohibit any worth of our own, or any ontology of our own, to be an 'addition' to Himself, (as we might find ourselves conceiving of the notion, 'addition'), nor, on the other hand, of us actually being part of Eternal, Infinite God, particularly as we might find implication supporting our own ontological "eternity past".

The notion of the Simplicity of God applying to this subject make me smile inside because I am sure there is some kind of 'play on words' (yet not words, but concepts), or even a 'pun' of sorts, going on here, within the notions I mentioned above concerning infinite-God's delight in Himself, and so we 'in Him'. Not exactly "discovery" as we might term it, but...?

We don't have anything of our own. We live and move and have our being in him. That does not mean we have no worth or value as individuals. And "in him" does not mean we become him or are a part of him. It simply expresses our being set free from being in Adam and fallen and corrupted and facing his wrath, to being so closely joined to Christ that we identify with him in his death and resurrection. We too will either be raised or changed at his return. It means we wear his robes of righteousness now, are indwelt by the Holy Spirit now, there is no condemnation for us now or ever, he sanctifies us now in both senses of the word, and he will return and dwell with us again. He will be our God and we will be his people. And I suppose we will again have dominion over the earth to tend and care for it and each other---which is what he created us to do.

 

[makesends]

Of the many discussions I've been in concerning what it means that "we are made in His Image", most do not begin to touch on the universal aspect that the term may signify, nor, particularly, the end result that may be implied in the phrase, "made in the Image of God" that has everything to do with what it means to be Human.

I am not sure what you mean by "universal aspect" of made in his image,

I am saying that there is more to this than what is usually discussed, (which I didn't say, but: Usually what is discussed has only to do with our abilities/ and/or our nature in this temporal realm, (though, granted, the question of 'later' may by some of them be implied or assumed).

or "that has everything to do with what it means to be Human."

I'm speaking of the anthropology (either looked at directly, or by inference, or assumed) that is their focus as opposed to their thinking in universal terms. Lol, I'm even confusing myself! I can see this can get into the weeds pretty quickly! I will try to be careful.

So I will do my best to present my view of what it means to be made in his image. It actually says made in his image and likeness and I do not think that is a redundancy.

I guess you mean that you don't think it is a tautology. Don't know if it is or not. But I like the thought that there may be specific meanings having to do with who/what Jesus Christ is, within that. Lol, there's a whole 'nuther thread there! (Yeah, I know, that's not where you meant for that to go. Blame my hyperactive (autistic?) brain that is addicted to patterns.)

I see the "likeness" as having to do with the ways in which we are similar to God, but never exactly like him in any way. This would have to do with our being a living being; a being who makes choices and decisions; one who acts and thinks.

"In his image" refers to our moral responsibility to reflect his moral character.

Though there is some truth in that, from the Arminian/Pelagian/ Semi-Pelagian view it is topsy turvy. For one thing, God does not discover anything. He made us. Anything that delights him about us is attributed to Christ and our having been cleansed and purified by him. Nevertheless, he does delight in us.

My relatives and friends from childhood, Arminian (though they say not), or, at least, what I call self-deterministic, do refer me to the fact that at some point in Heaven, God says to each, "Well, done, good and faithful servant"—and that is hard to argue against. While the crowns are laid at Jesus' feet, we are not only the Body of Christ, (to imply that God is praising his Son, and so us therefore only as IN his Son), but we are also the Children of God, and (in my firm opinion) the Dwelling Place of God, both particular to God the Father, (though, granted, not to the exclusion of the Son).

Nevertheless, I like the uses you make of "likeness" and "image", and I love how they integrate to the idea of being IN HIM.

I would never say "we are a welcome addition". We were created to be a kingdom, and for his purposes. And that purpose is seen in the end result though it has not arrived yet. At which point we see, not earth going to heaven, but heaven coming to earth. Heaven being the abode of God. It is a kingdom. The kingdom of God. And we see ourselves at that time as different than how we were created. Immortal and incorruptible instead of mortal----able to die--- incorruptible, instead of able to be corrupted.

Completely agreed. (And a whole 'nuther thread poking its head in there! )

Our value comes from Christ and for Christ. God is giving a people to the Son. I know that does not exactly answer the question you are asking, but I don't think we are actually given that answer in Scripture. I will however touch on what @Hazelelponi said. God does want a relationship with his creatures and his creation. But he is transcendent and invisible. Any relationship must come by him down to us. It is a ladder we cannot climb. He does this through covenant. Covenant is a relationship. And he brings people into that covenant. In the Exodus and Sinai covenant he revealed himself as the one true God. A living God, who speaks and acts and has the power to keep his covenant.

Thanks for that, and how it touches on what @Hazelelponi said. Hadn't really thought in those terms when trying to understand her.

I don't think you meant here to contradict the complete unity of Christ with his members, as you describe earlier, but it does touch on my puzzling on the question of worth-by-unity (with God) vs worth-as-individual-ontology.

A covenant is God stooping down and entering into our history to redeem a people for his kingdom. He has the same covenant love for those he gives to the Son as he has for the Son and the Son has for him. (John 17). It is a glorious thing and is for his glory. The most simple answer which still leaves the details unanswered, we are by him, through him and for him.

Amen THAT! I'm wondering if you also mean that "He has the same [degree of] covenant love for those he gives to the Son as he has for the Son and the Son has for him." Lol, John 17 scares me. It's way too big for me!

We don't have anything of our own. We live and move and have our being in him. That does not mean we have no worth or value as individuals. And "in him" does not mean we become him or are a part of him.

Not in every way that he is himself, anyhow, agreed, but, we ARE a part of him, it seems mathematically, at least, in that we are Members of his Body. Scary stuff!

It simply expresses our being set free from being in Adam and fallen and corrupted and facing his wrath, to being so closely joined to Christ that we identify with him in his death and resurrection. We too will either be raised or changed at his return. It means we wear his robes of righteousness now, are indwelt by the Holy Spirit now, there is no condemnation for us now or ever, he sanctifies us now in both senses of the word, and he will return and dwell with us again. He will be our God and we will be his people. And I suppose we will again have dominion over the earth to tend and care for it and each other---which is what he created us to do.

I have my doubts about that last, though it is possible. Of one thing I am sure, that if you are right there, it is a new earth, and of a 'different order' from what we observe here. (But, that's another thread.)

 

[Arial]

I guess you mean that you don't think it is a tautology.

Correct. But I have never heard that word and had to look it up. It is not a redundancy when God says "image AND likeness" because he does not mean the same thing by them. He did not simply say something with an excess of words that were saying the same thing.

I have my doubts about that last, though it is possible. Of one thing I am sure, that if you are right there, it is a new earth, and of a 'different order' from what we observe here. (But, that's another thread.)

Rev says it is a new earth. Now what that means exactly, of course I do not know. I do know it is just as easy for God to restore all the damage we have done to this earth, in the twinkling of an eye, as it is to change us from mortal to immortal in the twinkling of an eye. It was God who subjected creation to futility because of our fall. Even though the results of this futility are seen in time and over time, that is only our perspective. It was done by decree in an instant. Everything suffers and dies, not just humans. God did create earth to be our home. And Is 11 depicts it as much like creation before the fall.

As to God dwelling with us now---he does, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. He did dwell with us when Jesus walked the earth and in visible form, though as man to accomplish redemption. His future dwelling with us will be as in Eden---visible and eternal.

But here are a couple of passages I was reading today, that speak to your OP. We tend, I think all of us, to at times pull specific messages out of scriptures, that are truly there, but on a different day reading the same scriptures we have a drop jaw moment as we see something also and deeper, that hits us like a hammer---or maybe a proverbial light bulb moment is more apt.

Col 1:15-19 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorites--all things were created through him and for him. ANd he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the Head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

1 Cor 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

 

[makesends]

But here are a couple of passages I was reading today, that speak to your OP. We tend, I think all of us, to at times pull specific messages out of scriptures, that are truly there, but on a different day reading the same scriptures we have a drop jaw moment as we see something also and deeper, that hits us like a hammer---or maybe a proverbial light bulb moment is more apt.

Off-Topic, but, my siblings and I are all 'linguistically inclined' —we notice words —(one of us is a professional linguist)— and I love how the English language describes the same event by figures of speech, in several different ways: "A light bulb went off in my head"; "A light came on in my thinking": "A light bulb moment"; "A flash of inspiration"; "An epiphany";

What's up? What's going down? What's coming off? What's going on? What's happening? —all mean the same thing.

 

[Rescued One]

"We don't have anything of our own. We live and move and have our being in him. That does not mean we have no worth or value as individuals. And "in him" does not mean we become him or are a part of him. It simply expresses our being set free from being in Adam and fallen and corrupted and facing his wrath, to being so closely joined to Christ that we identify with him in his death and resurrection. We too will either be raised or changed at his return. It means we wear his robes of righteousness now, are indwelt by the Holy Spirit now, there is no condemnation for us now or ever, he sanctifies us now in both senses of the word, and he will return and dwell with us again. He will be our God and we will be his people. And I suppose we will again have dominion over the earth to tend and care for it and each other---which is what he created us to do."

I like this. I'm not blessed with lots of education and an ability to articulate deep thoughts, but it matters to me that people think about these things. I never understood how people go to church every Sunday and have nothing to say about the sermon. For instance, a pastor might say we should pray for unbelieving relatives to be saved, but don't expect God to convict them. Why are we praying if man's will is stronger than God's? Teach me!

My experiences were in mostly non-Calvinist churches including non-trinitarian.

 

[Arial]

I like this. I'm not blessed with lots of education and an ability to articulate deep thoughts, but it matters to me that people think about these things. I never understood how people go to church every Sunday and have nothing to say about the sermon. For instance, a pastor might say we should pray for unbelieving relatives to be saved, but don't expect God to convict them. Why are we praying if man's will is stronger than God's? Teach me!

My experiences were in mostly non-Calvinist churches including non-trinitarian.

We pray because God tells us to. I don't remember now if it was R.C. Sproul or Voddie B, who had a teaching on why we pray. I am sure they both have one. But it was said that if we look at the prayers in the Bible, we find God's word and what he has said he will do is being prayed back to him. Pink said God gives us the prayers to pray. I am not sure about that one, but I can see some validity there, but the wording is off imo.

The pastor seems to be saying pray but don't believe God will answer.

We pray for our unsaved loved ones, because only God can save, and our hearts break for them. Our prayers, I believe is a means God has established of bringing about his will. Just as his people preaching the gospel is the means by which he gathers his people to the Shepherd.

 

[Rescued One]

We pray because God tells us to. I don't remember now if it was R.C. Sproul or Voddie B, who had a teaching on why we pray. I am sure they both have one. But it was said that if we look at the prayers in the Bible, we find God's word and what he has said he will do is being prayed back to him. Pink said God gives us the prayers to pray. I am not sure about that one, but I can see some validity there, but the wording is off imo.

The pastor seems to be saying pray but don't believe God will answer.

We pray for our unsaved loved ones, because only God can save, and our hearts break for them. Our prayers, I believe is a means God has established of bringing about his will. Just as his people preaching the gospel is the means by which he gathers his people to the Shepherd.

If God has already chosen the elect, why are we praying for the non-elect to be saved? I prayed and prayed for years for unbelieving relatives, I witnessed to them, I was kind to them. One by one they passed away without believing. ??? I'm not an angry unkind person. Well, I apologize for being off-topic. Carry on.

 

[Hazelelponi]

convict them. Why are we praying if man's will is stronger than God's? Teach me!

Tim Keller’s Prayer: Experiencing Awe and Intimacy with God is a good read if you like books.

If you can't get it through your local library (do you get ebooks through your local library? It's free and anything your library can get you can read free in ebook format without going to the library - you just need the library card)

You can get the paperback on Amazon for 11 or the Kindle version for 10 dollars or it looks like you can get the audiobook for .98 cents if you have membership it looks like.

But I would certainly check the library first, it is a popular book.

 

[Hazelelponi]

If God has already chosen the elect, why are we praying for the non-elect to be saved? I prayed and prayed for years for unbelieving relatives, I witnessed to them, I was kind to them. One by one they passed away without believing. ??? I'm not an angry unkind person. Well, I apologize for being off-topic. Carry on.

I haven't been saved long yet, only 10 years now.

I'm praying for everyone since I have been saved, but it is sad most of the time. My heart breaks because all this is here and I don't know how to express what "all this" is, but it's peace and not war, love and not hate, just and no injustice, law and not lawlessness. It's family and not brokenness.

I found what heals all and I don't know how to tell anyone.

So I get the pain, it's so deep. I can't even write this silly post without tears.

But despite knowing that only God's elect will be saved, our command is this. We share the Gospel, we pray that our sharing is paired with His effectual calling, and we trust Him to bring all to completion.

And we trust Him with those things we love. And we trust Him with our life. We just trust Him, and all this is acknowledging Him, His Work when we pray for His Hand upon the work He created us to do.

That is just me though. I hang on to trust, I have nothing else. What God is doing is very individual, but it's bigger too, so we know God's promises are true, and we trust Him in both the small picture and the Big picture.

 

[Rescued One]

I haven't been saved long yet, only 10 years now.

I'm praying for everyone since I have been saved, but it is sad most of the time. My heart breaks because all this is here and I don't know how to express what "all this" is, but it's peace and not war, love and not hate, just and no injustice, law and not lawlessness. It's family and not brokenness.

I found what heals all and I don't know how to tell anyone.

So I get the pain, it's so deep. I can't even write this silly post without tears.

But despite knowing that only God's elect will be saved, our command is this. We share the Gospel, we pray that our sharing is paired with His effectual calling, and we trust Him to bring all to completion.

And we trust Him with those things we love. And we trust Him with our life. We just trust Him, and all this is acknowledging Him, His Work when we pray for His Hand upon the work He created us to do.

That is just me though. I hang on to trust, I have nothing else.

I've always liked your posts and I still do. Your posts are a blessing and I pray thst God will continue to give you strength. I do pray but mostly I try to accept the myriad of disappointments that might be God's will for me.

 

[Rescued One]

Tim Keller’s Prayer: Experiencing Awe and Intimacy with God is a good read if you like books.

If you can't get it through your local library (do you get ebooks through your local library? It's free and anything your library can get you can read free in ebook format without going to the library - you just need the library card)

You can get the paperback on Amazon for 11 or the Kindle version for 10 dollars or it looks like you can get the audiobook for .98 cents if you have membership it looks like.

But I would certainly check the library first, it is a popular booK.

Thank you. I'll check Amazon when I have some money --- maybe next month.