Dealing with Toxic People

[CrowCross]

ou don't believe the Holy Spirit can guide us and let us know who is toxic and who is not?

I never said I didn't.

You seem to be backpeddling just a tag. Which is OK. As now you're saying its ok for the Holy Spirit to direct you concerning dealing with a toxic person.....which has always been true.

 

[His clay]

How old are you?

No, I'm serious.

Old enough to spot a question framing fallacy. Are you saying that you aren't old enough to understand what the question framing fallacy is?

So you're serious about beating your loved ones?

^ The above question is just showing you a mirror of yourself. I'm sending you an accusatory question framing fallacy just like you did previously to the other poster. Do you like your own tactics used against you? But in all seriousness, tone back the toxicity of your posts please.

 

[STAND]

I wonder if you noticed that this fits the description of every post you have made? Everyone else noticed it, yet we are the toxic people. I have a suggestion. Go back through the posts. Start fresh. Wipe the slate clean. And see if you can address what others are saying, present your agreement or disagreement, discuss, all without any toxic, sarcastic, hateful, judgemental, accusatory, commentary. We will be quick to forgive and carry on as though we had never been attacked and ridiculed. If not, you can talk to yourself because wisdom says not to entangle ourselves with those who do as you are doing, or we may become like them.

Wisdom is female in Proverbs.

 

[Arial]

Wisdom is female in Proverbs.

So what? Are you going to start fresh and address posts in the say it was suggested?

 

[Arial]

“When a toxic person attacks us, let’s think these words first: I honor my Father in heaven above all things. Pleasing you or getting you to agree with me isn’t my first goal in life. After explaining his motivation, Jesus puts the issue back on the toxic person, where it belongs. This isn’t about me because I’m honoring my Father; this is about you because you’re dishonoring me.”

I haven't read the book, don't intend to. There is a book that answers those dilemmas from the mouth of God Himself---the Bible. I know nothing about Thomas or what his purpose was in writing the book. I'm sure it serves a purpose and has value.

However, pulling a quote like this from the entire volume is a bit disconcerting. We do not know what came before or what comes after so we have no context in which to place it. What does he mean by toxic? Is it the same thing the OP means and what is that?

Toxic is kind of a buzzword, that in the field of mental health has a specific meaning, but becomes a meaningless buzzword when the general public takes it up. It can be reduced to whatever someone doesn't like. So to try and discuss it in any meaningful way runs the risk of saying something someone doesn't like, and therefore is considered toxic by them. That is why things must be addressed specifically.

But there is a form of communication that is toxic to a conversation, that probably all would agree with, except those who are doing it. That would be what could also be called trolling on a forum. An intent to be disruptive. Never addressing posts but answering them with hostility and accusation and name calling. Never sticking to the subject but inserting red herrings, and other fallacies. In general exhibiting a negative and hostile and resentful attitude.

As to the quote from Thomas, standing all alone as it is, I would say that the first underline is a fine way to look at things, but comparing it to what Jesus did is a misrepresentation of Jesus. We might take our example from Him for it is brilliant and unflappable. Jesus was never concerned about being honored or dishonored as Thomas suggests. He was never concerned about whether people liked or disliked Him, or what they said or did to Him or if they disagreed with Him or hurt His feelings. He just went about the business of doing what He came to do. And He laid down His life for His sheep.

 

[STAND]

So what? Are you going to start fresh and address posts in the say it was suggested?

I'm not even sure what you just said.

Are you "Christ-Centered", Arial?

 

[STAND]

I haven't read the book, don't intend to. There is a book that answers those dilemmas from the mouth of God Himself---the Bible. I know nothing about Thomas or what his purpose was in writing the book. I'm sure it serves a purpose and has value.

However, pulling a quote like this from the entire volume is a bit disconcerting. We do not know what came before or what comes after so we have no context in which to place it. What does he mean by toxic? Is it the same thing the OP means and what is that?

Toxic is kind of a buzzword, that in the field of mental health has a specific meaning, but becomes a meaningless buzzword when the general public takes it up. It can be reduced to whatever someone doesn't like. So to try and discuss it in any meaningful way runs the risk of saying something someone doesn't like, and therefore is considered toxic by them. That is why things must be addressed specifically.

But there is a form of communication that is toxic to a conversation, that probably all would agree with, except those who are doing it. That would be what could also be called trolling on a forum. An intent to be disruptive. Never addressing posts but answering them with hostility and accusation and name calling. Never sticking to the subject but inserting red herrings, and other fallacies. In general exhibiting a negative and hostile and resentful attitude.

As to the quote from Thomas, standing all alone as it is, I would say that the first underline is a fine way to look at things, but comparing it to what Jesus did is a misrepresentation of Jesus. We might take our example from Him for it is brilliant and unflappable. Jesus was never concerned about being honored or dishonored as Thomas suggests. He was never concerned about whether people liked or disliked Him, or what they said or did to Him or if they disagreed with Him or hurt His feelings. He just went about the business of doing what He came to do. And He laid down His life for His sheep.

And He walked away from many and allowed many to walk away from Him.

We are to walk away from Toxic People.

 

[STAND]

I never said I didn't.

You seem to be backpeddling just a tag. Which is OK. As now you're saying its ok for the Holy Spirit to direct you concerning dealing with a toxic person.....which has always been true.

And when it directs you to walk away from a Toxic Person, you are to do so because you can trust the discernment of the Spirit.

 

[makesends]

Wisdom is female in Proverbs.

Feminine is not the same as female. Female is feminine as are many other things.

 

[CrowCross]

And when it directs you to walk away from a Toxic Person, you are to do so because you can trust the discernment of the Spirit.

I agree.

Someone here once said..."We are to purge the evil from our midst and cut ties with these people permanently. They are Tares that have been planted by the enemy among the Wheat for the very purpose of sidetracking our cause and frustrating our efforts for God".....Unless the Holy Spirit has directed you to interact with such people.

 

[STAND]

I agree.

Someone here once said..."We are to purge the evil from our midst and cut ties with these people permanently. They are Tares that have been planted by the enemy among the Wheat for the very purpose of sidetracking our cause and frustrating our efforts for God".....Unless the Holy Spirit has directed you to interact with such people.

A very wise statement, indeed.

 

[Arial]

A very wise statement, indeed.

However the OP was presented as though our feelings were to direct us and as black and white. I.e. if this person causes us to feel in such and such a way and we determine them to be toxic to US, we are to cut them off, have nothing to do with them, even it was suggested, consider them children of the devil. And every post that followed by others suggesting the possibility that maybe God should be consulted and considered on the matter, the persons posting were ridiculed and treated with contempt, and or dismissiveness. Any attempt to discuss the issues brought up was abandoned. It was this unclarified but cut and dried approach of the OP that prompted the responses that followed, and were evidently immediately taken to be "toxic."

So, if we set all that aside and now get to the issue of the leading of the Holy Spirit, which was attempted long ago, maybe we can rescue the thread.

My question given that the statement was made that if the Holy Spirit tells us to walk away, we walk away,---which I agree with--- on what do we base the leading of the Holy Spirit? How do we know the difference between our feelings and His leading? Or are our feelings His leading?

 

[STAND]

It is interesting to note how closely the concept of 'sinners' can be overlaid with 'Toxic People'.

All Christians have sinned, and do still sin on occasion. That does not make Christians 'sinners'. The Bible even makes clear that we are no longer 'sinners' once we are saved.

"While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Rom. 5:8

Greg Thomas clarifies in his book, "Individual acts don't make a person toxic; toxic describes someone who feels comfortable in those acts and energized by those acts and who makes those acts the common approach to their relationships."
Chapter 5: Loving Hate p.52

Sinners aren't those who sin occasionally; sinners are those who have made peace with their sin and live in daily habitual sin.

There is a definitive difference between those who can be difficult and problematic and those who are difficult and problematic as a rule.

Interestingly, earlier authors of the subject of Toxic People simply referred to them as 'evil' people.

Toxic people are evil. Toxic people are sinners.

We must purge them from our lives and from our churches.

 

[His clay]

However the OP was presented as though our feelings were to direct us and as black and white. I.e. if this person causes us to feel in such and such a way and we determine them to be toxic to US, we are to cut them off, have nothing to do with them, even it was suggested, consider them children of the devil. And every post that followed by others suggesting the possibility that maybe God should be consulted and considered on the matter, the persons posting were ridiculed and treated with contempt, and or dismissiveness. Any attempt to discuss the issues brought up was abandoned. It was this unclarified but cut and dried approach of the OP that prompted the responses that followed, and were evidently immediately taken to be "toxic."

So, if we set all that aside and now get to the issue of the leading of the Holy Spirit, which was attempted long ago, maybe we can rescue the thread.

My question given that the statement was made that if the Holy Spirit tells us to walk away, we walk away,---which I agree with--- on what do we base the leading of the Holy Spirit? How do we know the difference between our feelings and His leading? Or are our feelings His leading?

Excellent. If only the other poster would truly consider what you have written.

Much the same as my interaction with a different poster, sometimes people are reacting to a truly difficult situation. This situation then colors all other exchanges. And sometimes people just react with their feelings as you have said. What I appreciate is the attempt to steer @STAND toward scripture, after all, the Holy Spirit inspired its writers, and the word of God and the Holy Spirit are (to borrow an ipod term) in sync. The Holy Spirit will not lead us contrary to the Bible, which the Holy Spirit inspired and moved in the writing thereof. The attempt to equate feelings with the Holy Spirit is profoundly dangerous, and thus having a truly objective source of truth, the Bible, is a much needed corrective.

What biblical truth is governing our feelings? And since the word "toxic" (let alone the amorphous vague understanding of it given in the thread) is not in the Bible, then we need a more biblical approach in discerning appropriate actions.

 

[Arial]

The Holy Spirit will not lead us contrary to the Bible, which the Holy Spirit inspired and moved in the writing thereof. The attempt to equate feelings with the Holy Spirit is profoundly dangerous, and thus having a truly objective source of truth, the Bible, is a much needed corrective.

What biblical truth is governing our feelings? And since the word "toxic" (let alone the amorphous vague understanding of it given in the thread) is not in the Bible, then we need a more biblical approach in discerning appropriate actions.

I found in my pre Reformation life, that is predominantly what people were doing; equating strong feelings, a sense of peace within themselves to go one way over another (decision), their own feelings (which always feed our desires) as the voice of the Holy Spirit. There were even times when it was advised to pray for guidance in what to do, open the Bible at random and with eyes closed, place your finger on the page. That would be, these advisors said or sometimes given as experincal testimony, the Holy Spirit leading you. Indeed, that is very, very, dangerous and has often wrecked havoc in marriages, relationships, business,etc., their own and that of others.

To get to the truth about our feelings requires us to be open and honest before God, about our motivations and reactions, to see what sin is lurking there, if any, and repent. Let the Spirit sanctify us in that area. In my opinion, "They make me uncomfortable. I can't stop having hostile conversations with them in my mind." is not reason enough to cut a person out of our lives.

In reference to"toxic" not being in the Bible, there were those, including the author of the book quoted from, who then defined what toxic was for Jesus.

I have not read the book being used as the basis for the OP and know nothing of the author. Just going by the quotes used, I am guessing it is a book that is not theologically or doctrinal based (welcome to the modern church!) but more on the line of a self help, living your best life, book. A conglomeration of the Bible and human, cultural wisdom, the Bible and Christianity becoming in the process, merely a social and moral teaching/religion. Who needs doctrine and theology?!

 

[STAND]

I found in my pre Reformation life, that is predominantly what people were doing; equating strong feelings, a sense of peace within themselves to go one way over another (decision), their own feelings (which always feed our desires) as the voice of the Holy Spirit. There were even times when it was advised to pray for guidance in what to do, open the Bible at random and with eyes closed, place your finger on the page. That would be, these advisors said or sometimes given as experincal testimony, the Holy Spirit leading you. Indeed, that is very, very, dangerous and has often wrecked havoc in marriages, relationships, business,etc., their own and that of others.

To get to the truth about our feelings requires us to be open and honest before God, about our motivations and reactions, to see what sin is lurking there, if any, and repent. Let the Spirit sanctify us in that area. In my opinion, "They make me uncomfortable. I can't stop having hostile conversations with them in my mind." is not reason enough to cut a person out of our lives.

In reference to"toxic" not being in the Bible, there were those, including the author of the book quoted from, who then defined what toxic was for Jesus.

I have not read the book being used as the basis for the OP and know nothing of the author. Just going by the quotes used, I am guessing it is a book that is not theologically or doctrinal based (welcome to the modern church!) but more on the line of a self help, living your best life, book. A conglomeration of the Bible and human, cultural wisdom, the Bible and Christianity becoming in the process, merely a social and moral teaching/religion. Who needs doctrine and theology?!

On the contrary, Gary Thomas is a Christian writer-in-residence at Second Baptist Church in Houston, Tx., an adjunct faculty member at Western Seminary and Houston Theological Seminary and the author of more than twenty books based on Biblical teachings. He is also a speaker in 49 states and 10 countries as well as a regular guest on national radio and television programs like CBN, Focus on the Family and Family Life Today.

The entire book is backed by Biblical teaching and there are numerous Biblical references therein.

Do you have any evidence of the above bolded part of your quote?

I would be interested in reading about those occurrences.

 

[Arial]

On the contrary, Gary Thomas is a Christian writer-in-residence at Second Baptist Church in Houston, Tx., an adjunct faculty member at Western Seminary and Houston Theological Seminary and the author of more than twenty books based on Biblical teachings. He is also a speaker in 49 states and 10 countries as well as a regular guest on national radio and television programs like CBN, Focus on the Family and Family Life Today.

None of that actually demonstrates that this particular book is theologically and doctrinally based. Perhaps you do not know what I mean by that. I will clarify. To be theologically based it would need the use of theology as support for its claims in accordance with Christian theology (who God is and in relation to us). To be doctrinally based it would need to be a direct result of the doctrines of Christianity. If not, it is based on behaviors and dealing with behaviors of others. Which may be Christian and also may borrow from the secular world. The word "toxic"itself is borrowed from the mental health field.

In any case, I can only go on the quotes you have given, and that is what I am basing my perception on.

The entire book is backed by Biblical teaching and there are numerous Biblical references therein.

So is most of the Quran and the Book of Mormon. They just interpret the Bible differently. Teaching is one thing. Theology is another. Doctrine yet another.

Do you have any evidence of the above bolded part of your quote?

1 Thes 2:10-12 You are witnesses,and God also , how holy and righteous and blameless was our conduct toward you believers. For you know how, like a father with his children, we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you to walk in a manner worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory.

Col 4:5-6 Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportnity, Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

Romans 12:2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. 3. For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgement, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

Eph 4:22-24 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. 26-27In your anger do not sin: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold.

Luke 6:28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

A lot of the problems we have with others that we may see as toxic, begin in ourselves, or are exasperated by things in ourselves. When we deal with those in prayer and supplication we will find ourselves less affected by the behaviors of others. That is why I see difficult situations as opportunities for sanctification in areas of us, that we didn't even know needed sanctifying as per He who began a good work in you will complete it. If we always run and hide from unpleasantness, those hidden sins will not be exposed. It is good to pray as David did, for God to reveal to us any hidden sins that we might walk in the ways of righteousness.

 

[STAND]

None of that actually demonstrates that this particular book is theologically and doctrinally based. Perhaps you do not know what I mean by that. I will clarify. To be theologically based it would need the use of theology as support for its claims in accordance with Christian theology (who God is and in relation to us). To be doctrinally based it would need to be a direct result of the doctrines of Christianity. If not, it is based on behaviors and dealing with behaviors of others. Which may be Christian and also may borrow from the secular world. The word "toxic"itself is borrowed from the mental health field.

In any case, I can only go on the quotes you have given, and that is what I am basing my perception on.

So is most of the Quran and the Book of Mormon. They just interpret the Bible differently. Teaching is one thing. Theology is another. Doctrine yet another.

1 Thes 2:10-12 You are witnesses,and God also , how holy and righteous and blameless was our conduct toward you believers. For you know how, like a father with his children, we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you to walk in a manner worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory.

Col 4:5-6 Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportnity, Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

Romans 12:2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. 3. For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgement, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

Eph 4:22-24 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. 26-27In your anger do not sin: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold.

Luke 6:28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

A lot of the problems we have with others that we may see as toxic, begin in ourselves, or are exasperated by things in ourselves. When we deal with those in prayer and supplication we will find ourselves less affected by the behaviors of others. That is why I see difficult situations as opportunities for sanctification in areas of us, that we didn't even know needed sanctifying as per He who began a good work in you will complete it. If we always run and hide from unpleasantness, those hidden sins will not be exposed. It is good to pray as David did, for God to reveal to us any hidden sins that we might walk in the ways of righteousness.

I'm not sure what you're going on about.

Greg uses actual book, chapter and verse references from the Bible. He refers to Christ's personal dealing with people and His walking away from people and allowing people to walk away from Him.

As I've already stated, older books by authors like Dan Allender and Trempor Longman referred to the same exact type of people as 'evil' as opposed to toxic. You are trying really hard to discredit this book and its message, but there's plenty of support for its argument in, and out of, the Bible.

The Bible teaches of the Tares and of the children of the devil. That's not unbiblical, it's not my own opinions or perspectives, etc. It is Biblical. I've also been asked many times here to explain what a toxic person is and I've provided that definition in my own words, multiple times, as well as the author's words, multiple times.

There's a reason I'm not often replying to you and the others here who are bashing this thread.

It's a waste of time.

I see you had no evidence at all for these occurrences that you claimed:

There were even times when it was advised to pray for guidance in what to do, open the Bible at random and with eyes closed, place your finger on the page. That would be, these advisors said or sometimes given as experincal testimony, the Holy Spirit leading you. Indeed, that is very, very, dangerous and has often wrecked havoc in marriages, relationships, business,etc., their own and that of others.

 

[makesends]

STAND said:
And when it directs you to walk away from a Toxic Person, you are to do so because you can trust the discernment of the Spirit.

I agree.

Someone here once said..."We are to purge the evil from our midst and cut ties with these people permanently. They are Tares that have been planted by the enemy among the Wheat for the very purpose of sidetracking our cause and frustrating our efforts for God".....Unless the Holy Spirit has directed you to interact with such people.

Not that you don't agree with this, but for the sake of @STAND lest he take you to imply something you do not, the fact that the Holy Spirit may not have directed you to interact with such people doesn't mean they are Tares that have been planted by the enemy.

 

[Arial]

I'm not sure what you're going on about.

Then ask. What is it exactly that is confusing you?

Greg uses actual book, chapter and verse references from the Bible. He refers to Christ's personal dealing with people and His walking away from people and allowing people to walk away from Him.

Are we talking about and reviewing Thomas' book, or are we meant to be discussing so called "toxic" people and how to deal with them?

You are trying really hard to discredit this book and its message, but there's plenty of support for its argument in, and out of, the Bible.

I have no interest in discrediting his book and have not said anything to discredit it. That I guess is in the eye of the beholder just as "toxic" is.

The Bible teaches of the Tares and of the children of the devil. That's not unbiblical, it's not my own opinions or perspectives, etc. It is Biblical. I've also been asked many times here to explain what a toxic person is and I've provided that definition in my own words, multiple times, as well as the author's words, multiple times.

Tares are simply unbelievers and what Jesus says about it is to leave them lest in tearing them up you also pull up the wheat. That He will deal with it at harvest. Matt 13:24-30

There's a reason I'm not often replying to you and the others here who are bashing this thread.

Trying to have a reasonable discussion is not thread bashing.

I see you had no evidence at all for these occurrences that you claimed:

I do have evidence of it. I am an eyewitness.