Dealing with Toxic People

[eclipseEventSigns]

Keep them op relevant instead of about posters and they won't be.

Again. Just because you believe that is the case doesn't mean it is true.

 

[Arial]

Toxic as applied to a person is ambiguous. What one person considers toxic to them, rolls right off of another person. Toxic when applied to persons is always relational and/or situational, to that relationship and subject to the opinion of the one who sees is as toxic. Some feel poisoned, as having their spiritual progress derailed because they stew over it in their mind, by simply being disagreed with or having their statements challenged. So they label the person as a toxic person---a very unChristian, unbiblical, thing to do---and either shun them as worthless, or bring the very thing they determine as toxic into the situation, by judging and condemning. Anyone they don't like, or don't like the manner in which they present their disagreements, becomes a toxic person.

A statement like the following, and then accuses the brethren of being toxic, would indicate someone who has abandoned godly principles of relationship as given in the Scripture between the brethren, in favor of personal feelings, and sits in judgement over them.

This is absolute nonsense. The Bible teaches that we should strive to help, assist and forgive "other believers", but it says nothing of wasting months and years on those general people who are just toxic and cause us nothing but problems.

Not only that, it is a false statement, for believers are to be a light to non-believers. (2 Cor 5:16-21) We were all unbelievers at one time. ANd who knows how many prayers were lifted up by believers on our behalf, or how many times had we heard the gospel from friends and relatives and strangers, and did not believe a word of it, until the day we remembered and believed?

The way in which the posts responding to the OP were reacted to, all by fellow Christians, indicates that the OP is disingenuous as it moved its own goal post from one thing:

So many misguided Christians today preach that we should do everything we can for the toxic friends and family members in our lives. That we should be endlessly patient and continuously forgiving and strive to bring them to God.

Calling them general people, whatever that means, to this:

We are to purge the evil from our midst and cut ties with these people permanently. They are Tares that have been planted by the enemy among the Wheat for the very purpose of sidetracking our cause and frustrating our efforts for God. Even if a seemingly devout believer is causing that much strife and stress in our lives, we are to cut them off as well. They are not displaying genuine fruits of a believer and they are not representing Christ in any way.

Calling those who cause personal torment to an individual, none of that being defined therefore ambiguous, the tares in the midst of the church. If a devout believer is causing us stress in our lives, we are then to judge them as a tare, we are to cut them off. And "not displaying genuine fruits" is self defined as what one likes or doesn't like, what upsets one is judged to not be a fruit of righteousness. Ambiguous.

And then back to this:

Free yourself from friends and loved ones who torment your life with poison and heartache. God intends for you to be free of these people and to use your passions and energy for His cause elsewhere.

Now we are back to friends and loved ones who torment our life with poison and heartache. Are these the "general people?" Or does it include fellow believers? Is it based totally on how we feel? Does it pervert the word of God by claiming to know what God intends, based not on Scripture, but feelings. But I have evidently been labeled toxic, because I dare to speak my mind, even when I am actually addressing what the OP could have been address, should have been addressing, and others have too, have been ignored by the original poster. As @Josheb said, it was a good topic with great potential. But it was presented in a way that contradicted itself, was never clearly defined, defied Scripture in its declarations. and frankly, to me, appeared to be a passive aggressive way of attacking fellow Christians and the ways in which they post, without being direct. Rather than what it at first glance appeared to be, could have been, should have been.

And every effort to address this or the issues in it, or issues pertaining to the topic, were never addressed in return, but met with personal accusations of being toxic. Deliberately divisive and judgemental.

 

[Arial]

Again. Just because you believe that is the case doesn't mean it is true.

This too is about the poster and not the post and is not OP relevant. I leave it up to point it out again. Any more will be deleted. You are welcome to deal with the OP or any other OP relevant posts. That is as it should be.

 

[ChristB4us]

Jesus never sought out toxic people and begged them to believe in Him.

He certainly doesn't expect us to waste our time with these people.

So many misguided Christians today preach that we should do everything we can for the toxic friends and family members in our lives. That we should be endlessly patient and continuously forgiving and strive to bring them to God.

This is absolute nonsense. The Bible teaches that we should strive to help, assist and forgive "other believers", but it says nothing of wasting months and years on those general people who are just toxic and cause us nothing but problems. They are wasting our time and our energy and that is exactly what the devil intends for them to do in our lives.

We are to purge the evil from our midst and cut ties with these people permanently. They are Tares that have been planted by the enemy among the Wheat for the very purpose of sidetracking our cause and frustrating our efforts for God. Even if a seemingly devout believer is causing that much strife and stress in our lives, we are to cut them off as well. They are not displaying genuine fruits of a believer and they are not representing Christ in any way.

Free yourself from friends and loved ones who torment your life with poison and heartache. God intends for you to be free of these people and to use your passions and energy for His cause elsewhere.

God bless.

What about the toxic people that are spouses that do not obey the word?

Here is what Peter said about this as led by the Spirit of Christ.

1 Peter 3:1Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. 3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: 9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. 10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: 11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. 13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? 14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

That can also apply to family members & relatives, & neighbors, and fellow co-workers.
When you are in a prison, as some of the early Christians were, and many are today, that is about as a toxic environment one can get, but it can be worse. Imagine a Christian that is a victim of the sex trade.

Maybe what you may call as a toxic environment, may be the place God put you in to be a light to a dark world and our refuge in that dark world is Jesus Christ to help us walk through this valley of death to fear no evil while we suffer evil.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

 

[Josheb]

As @Josheb said, it was a good topic with great potential. But it was presented in a way that contradicted itself, was never clearly defined, defied Scripture in its declarations.

Exactly

and frankly, to me, appeared to be a passive aggressive way of attacking fellow Christians and the ways in which they post, without being direct. Rather than what it at first glance appeared to be, could have been, should have been.

Yep

And every effort to address this or the issues in it, or issues pertaining to the topic, were never addressed in return, but met with personal accusations of being toxic. Deliberately divisive and judgemental.

Yep

I have waited for three days to see if definitions will be posted by the op (and changes made in degrees of collaborative discourse). Seeing none, when I have time, I will post a list of defining attributes of toxicity. I'll follow that with a sample of scriptures directing us how to discern the toxic person and what to do about it. There are plenty of resources on the web but they're not all correct. For example, WebMD, a generally reliable site offers a very shallow, and therefore poor, definition of what constitutes a toxic person.

A toxic person is anyone whose behavior adds negativity and upset to your life. Many times, people who are toxic are dealing with their own stresses and traumas. To do this, they act in ways that don’t present them in the best light and usually upset others along the way.​

The chronic and devaluing nature of these behaviors is missing. Everybody adds "negativity" and upsets others. Anyone who has ever been married knows this. The difference between ordinary, normal and even adaptive "negativity" and "upset" (vague terms the site should know better than to use) and toxicity is their pervasiveness and self-serving and self-elevating content.

That site offers a short list but the list is based on "feelings" or subjective perceptions and not objectively verifiable measures. Toxic people aren't vague and their conduct is not a mystery to those who know what to look for.

• You feel like you’re being manipulated into something you don’t want to do.
• You’re constantly confused by the person’s behavior.
• You feel like you deserve an apology that never comes.
• You always have to defend yourself to this person.
• You never feel fully comfortable around them.
• You continually feel bad about yourself in their presence.

Feeling manipulated is one thing, but being manipulated is another. This is important because "feeling" one way or another can result in confusion. The second bullet is accurate; the first is not and the irony here is that by not being specific and concrete the uninformed reader of this list will say, "Yes! I feel manipulated but I'm not sure. I'm not sure in the other person is actually being manipulative and I am not sure I can trust my feelings. This is so confusing." This is exactly what a manipulator wants you experience. The same kind of vagary exists in the third bullet point. Whether a person "feels like" the other person deserves an apology or not is misguided. If the person is apologizing a lot then that is an objective, measurable, telltale sign (symptom) of a toxic relationship. It's the chronic (persistent) occurrence and the subordinating aspect of apologies that decides the toxicity. I've sometimes charted this with clients by picking three or four people the know, scoring each relationship in various measures of abuse, and then compared the scores. Most of the time (but not always) the person is shocked and ashamed they gotten themselves in this toxic relationship and haven't recognized it. Here's a stumbling block for many: apologies are not scriptural! The scriptural standard is confession, repentance, restitution, forgiveness, and reconciliation. The healthier person in a toxic relationship can do that, but trying to get that sincerely happening with a toxic person is extremely difficult.

Similar vagaries exist in the remaining bullet points. Defensiveness exists in all intimate relationships and working through that problem is part of the developmental process in healthy relationships. Defensiveness kills communication and a lack of communication kills relationship. Feeling defensive is a subjective sensation. Being defensive is an observable measure. More importantly, defense is a good, normal, and healthy response to abuse. This is where another layer of confusion sets in because questioning ourselves in regard to what is good and healthy is a very real consequence of the abuse. It causes us not to trust ourselves, not to be ourselves. The abused person doesn't just feel defensive and doesn't just act defensively and doesn't just feel confused and doesn't just doubt themselves - they are actually being assailed. We're not supposed to feel uncomfortable and bad about ourselves (these are code words for safety and esteem). The problem is that it is hard to see the picture from within the frame. That's why most survivors of toxic people escaped because someone else brought the problem into their understanding. They could not see it themselves. In healthy relationships there is an overarching security that protects episodes of insecurity when otherwise healthy people come into conflict. Healthy people in healthy relationships have conflicts but they resolve them, improve the relationship doing so, and move forward collaboratively enhancing themselves and their relationship until the next disagreement occurs. They learn acceptance. The learn disagreement does not need to cause an argument and argument need not be abusive, and an argument (if done well) can be a very profound place of learning and improving oneself to the benefit of our partner.

Perceptions cannot be measured. Behaviors can be measured.

One last note for now: extreme forms of toxicity are common in what psychology calls "personality disorders" (PD), but a person need not have a personality disorder to be toxic. Victims and survivors of abuse may or may not have developed a personality disorder. It is a myth that the abused often become abusers (less the 25% do so) but learned behaviors tend to get replicated and until the healing is complete the survivor is not typically aware they are doing to others what others have done to them. This is difficult because of the perception the victim is being blamed. Blame is toxic or it is more accurate to say there is a scriptural form of blame and a toxic form of blame. Survivors of abuse are not traumatizing abusers, and they are not typically (clinical) narcissists, borderline, or antisocial (or schizotypal). Most PDs are toxic, but not all toxic people have PDs.

 

[Arial]

Exactly

Yep

Yep

I have waited for three days to see if definitions will be posted by the op (and changes made in degrees of collaborative discourse). Seeing none, when I have time, I will post a list of defining attributes of toxicity. I'll follow that with a sample of scriptures directing us how to discern the toxic person and what to do about it. There are plenty of resources on the web but they're not all correct. For example, WebMD, a generally reliable site offers a very shallow, and therefore poor, definition of what constitutes a toxic person.

A toxic person is anyone whose behavior adds negativity and upset to your life. Many times, people who are toxic are dealing with their own stresses and traumas. To do this, they act in ways that don’t present them in the best light and usually upset others along the way.​

The chronic and devaluing nature of these behaviors is missing. Everybody adds "negativity" and upsets others. Anyone who has ever been married knows this. The difference between ordinary, normal and even adaptive "negativity" and "upset" (vague terms the site should know better than to use) and toxicity is their pervasiveness and self-serving and self-elevating content.

That site offers a short list but the list is based on "feelings" or subjective perceptions and not objectively verifiable measures. Toxic people aren't vague and their conduct is not a mystery to those who know what to look for.

• You feel like you’re being manipulated into something you don’t want to do.
• You’re constantly confused by the person’s behavior.
• You feel like you deserve an apology that never comes.
• You always have to defend yourself to this person.
• You never feel fully comfortable around them.
• You continually feel bad about yourself in their presence.

Feeling manipulated is one thing, but being manipulated is another. This is important because "feeling" one way or another can result in confusion. The second bullet is accurate; the first is not and the irony here is that by not being specific and concrete the uninformed reader of this list will say, "Yes! I feel manipulated but I'm not sure. I'm not sure in the other person is actually being manipulative and I am not sure I can trust my feelings. This is so confusing." This is exactly what a manipulator wants you experience. The same kind of vagary exists in the third bullet point. Whether a person "feels like" the other person deserves an apology or not is misguided. If the person is apologizing a lot then that is an objective, measurable, telltale sign (symptom) of a toxic relationship. It's the chronic (persistent) occurrence and the subordinating aspect of apologies that decides the toxicity. I've sometimes charted this with clients by picking three or four people the know, scoring each relationship in various measures of abuse, and then compared the scores. Most of the time (but not always) the person is shocked and ashamed they gotten themselves in this toxic relationship and haven't recognized it. Here's a stumbling block for many: apologies are not scriptural! The scriptural standard is confession, repentance, restitution, forgiveness, and reconciliation. The healthier person in a toxic relationship can do that, but trying to get that sincerely happening with a toxic person is extremely difficult.

Similar vagaries exist in the remaining bullet points. Defensiveness exists in all intimate relationships and working through that problem is part of the developmental process in healthy relationships. Defensiveness kills communication and a lack of communication kills relationship. Feeling defensive is a subjective sensation. Being defensive is an observable measure. More importantly, defense is a good, normal, and healthy response to abuse. This is where another layer of confusion sets in because questioning ourselves in regard to what is good and healthy is a very real consequence of the abuse. It causes us not to trust ourselves, not to be ourselves. The abused person doesn't just feel defensive and doesn't just act defensively and doesn't just feel confused and doesn't just doubt themselves - they are actually being assailed. We're not supposed to feel uncomfortable and bad about ourselves (these are code words for safety and esteem). The problem is that it is hard to see the picture from within the frame. That's why most survivors of toxic people escaped because someone else brought the problem into their understanding. They could not see it themselves. In healthy relationships there is an overarching security that protects episodes of insecurity when otherwise healthy people come into conflict. Healthy people in healthy relationships have conflicts but they resolve them, improve the relationship doing so, and move forward collaboratively enhancing themselves and their relationship until the next disagreement occurs. They learn acceptance. The learn disagreement does not need to cause an argument and argument need not be abusive, and an argument (if done well) can be a very profound place of learning and improving oneself to the benefit of our partner.

Perceptions cannot be measured. Behaviors can be measured.

One last note for now: extreme forms of toxicity are common in what psychology calls "personality disorders" (PD), but a person need not have a personality disorder to be toxic. Victims and survivors of abuse may or may not have developed a personality disorder. It is a myth that the abused often become abusers (less the 25% do so) but learned behaviors tend to get replicated and until the healing is complete the survivor is not typically aware they are doing to others what others have done to them. This is difficult because of the perception the victim is being blamed. Blame is toxic or it is more accurate to say there is a scriptural form of blame and a toxic form of blame. Survivors of abuse are not traumatizing abusers, and they are not typically (clinical) narcissists, borderline, or antisocial (or schizotypal). Most PDs are toxic, but not all toxic people have PDs.

I will just say for now,--- as I am hungry and must go eat!---that the issue is complex, whereas the OP was entirely simplistic, unfocused, completely subjective, and based entirely on the feelings of the OP (apparently, given the end result), not on anything measurable or concrete or relevant for that matter.

 

[STAND]

The popular opinion in this thread is that we should never part ways with anyone in this life. That we should consider all people, no matter how problematic, as possible converts and spend as much time and energy as it takes to reach and convert them.

That is not simple ignorance, it is intentional deception.

Christ didn't allow anyone to waste His time, or sidetrack Him, and neither should we.

Christ clearly taught that there are two types of people in this world, the Wheat and the Tares. Nowhere did He give any impression that we are to cater to the Tares in any way. These are children of the devil - another fully sound doctrine of Scripture. They have been placed into society to derail God's purposes, to create negative trends among the children of God and to destroy all the good God intends in this world.

Toxic people are Tares, they are children of the devil. If someone finds themselves tangled up with one of these people, there is only one way to solve the problem. They will never listen to any explanations, they will never respond to grace, they will never respond to the love of God and they will never leave us alone otherwise. They are to be jettisoned from our lives without mercy and we are to carry on without remorse to continue in our work for God Almighty.

Yes, we ARE to judge those within the Faith - as God is the judge of those outside the Faith. Yet, just because someone is not a professed Christian, that certainly does not make them a golden opportunity for our ministry despite all other factors to the contrary.

There was a reason God commanded disobedient children to be stoned to death in the OT. It was to prevent as many of the Toxic People who we wrestle with today from procreating and infesting the earth. God knew He wouldn't eliminate them entirely, but He intended to diminish their numbers significantly.

We have a very short time here and our ministry is priceless. Toxic people are not to be tolerated and it is not God's will that we waste any more time on them than is necessary to suss them out and eliminate them from our ranks.

 

[STAND]

What about the toxic people that are spouses that do not obey the word?

Here is what Peter said about this as led by the Spirit of Christ.

1 Peter 3:1Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. 3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: 9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. 10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: 11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. 13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? 14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

That can also apply to family members & relatives, & neighbors, and fellow co-workers.
When you are in a prison, as some of the early Christians were, and many are today, that is about as a toxic environment one can get, but it can be worse. Imagine a Christian that is a victim of the sex trade.

Maybe what you may call as a toxic environment, may be the place God put you in to be a light to a dark world and our refuge in that dark world is Jesus Christ to help us walk through this valley of death to fear no evil while we suffer evil.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

God has His reasons for everything, but He's never going to be angry with a Christian with common sense who develops spiritual discernment and arrives at the conclusion that they must part ways with a Toxic Person to better their lives in order to continue serving Him to the best of their ability.

 

[ChristB4us]

The popular opinion in this thread is that we should never part ways with anyone in this life. That we should consider all people, no matter how problematic, as possible converts and spend as much time and energy as it takes to reach and convert them.

That is not simple ignorance, it is intentional deception.

As for spending time and energy as it takes to reach someone, it is one thing when you are in a set surroundings that you cannot get out of, but there is a limit to how we utilize our time and energy in so doing in reaching someone to convert them because of this below.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

And when there is a professing believer or church that is engaging in iniquity and will not depart from, there is this guideline below.

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;.......

14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

And although the Lord will help us to see when to withdraw and to help us to withdraw to admonish a professing believer, there are some environment He may have put us in, that cannot be the same for withdrawing from when it is the work place or the home since there, by the grace of God, we can serve Him as a light in a dark place.

Here are two scriptural references that cites the work place where a believer may suffer being defrauded and being victimized by a froward employer.

James 5:1Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. 3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. 4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. 5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. 6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. 9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. 10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. 11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

So this topic should not be about removing yourself from toxic people, but rather trusting the Lord Jesus Christ as your Good Shepherd & Friend to help you to follow Him in how to be a light in a dark world and when to withdraw with His help.

 

[ChristB4us]

God has His reasons for everything, but He's never going to be angry with a Christian with common sense who develops spiritual discernment and arrives at the conclusion that they must part ways with a Toxic Person to better their lives in order to continue serving Him to the best of their ability.

I reckon you have to define or categorize what a toxic person is. Can you give three examples for consideration and discernment?

I had thought of one where a spouse physically abuse the other. I would see that as an unbelieving spouse not pleased to live with that believing spouse for why the believing spouse should feel free to depart to get a divorce.

1 Corinthias 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. 16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife? 17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

Unfortunately, that only applies to an unbelieving spouse and not a believing spouse. with a believing spouse, I would say being separated for a while praying for one another is the call here as discernment is needed for what is messing the union up; because dark forces may be at work..

I am not applying verbal abuse as an excuse to withdraw. Spouses always say things they do not mean and apologize for it albeit, they should take it to Jesus in prayer for forgiveness and help not to do that again. When it is an unbelieving spouse, forgiving that unbelieving spouse for they know not what they do in saying those things may also lead the believing spouse by the Lord to say something to pacify that spouse.

Proverbs 15:1A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger..... 23 A man hath joy by the answer of his mouth: and a word spoken in due season, how good is it!

Provers 25:11 A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.

Anyway, feel free to assign cases regarding that toxic person because I am living in a toxic environment and yet this was prophesied in dreams/nightmares since I was a tot and there is no escaping it until He brings me Home... and I do so wish to escape to the Lord now.

At least He is my refuge in the storms of this life as I pray He will continually keep me from my sins and to help me to think on good things.

 

[Arial]

The popular opinion in this thread is that we should never part ways with anyone in this life. That we should consider all people, no matter how problematic, as possible converts and spend as much time and energy as it takes to reach and convert them.

That is not simple ignorance, it is intentional deception.

Just as in the OP, this is overgeneralized and completely and misrepresents what was said, and never addresses what was said. No one has said that we should venver parts ways with anyone in this life. We should consider all people as possible future believers, because it is something we cannot know, only God knows, and only God converts. It is never us the convert anyone, it is the gospel that is the power unto salvation.

No one said we are to spend as much time and energy as it takes to reach and convert them. The emphasis has always been on God and His work in people. Only those who believe that salvation depends on man's decision to believe or not believe, approaches preaching the gospel as though it were up to us to manipulate or manhandle people into making the right choice.

If what has been said in posts was considered and addressed with questions or answers, instead of regarding those posters as among the toxic, as seems to be done, you would find that it is neither ignorance or intentional deception. What it is, is trying to move the OP out of the category of being so generalized and undefined, into the area of thinking and pondering, taking God into consideration and His word. The deception, intentional or not intentional, ignorance or awareness, is using straw man arguments to dismiss voices of the brethren.

 

[STAND]

As for spending time and energy as it takes to reach someone, it is one thing when you are in a set surroundings that you cannot get out of, but there is a limit to how we utilize our time and energy in so doing in reaching someone to convert them because of this below.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

And when there is a professing believer or church that is engaging in iniquity and will not depart from, there is this guideline below.

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;.......

14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

And although the Lord will help us to see when to withdraw and to help us to withdraw to admonish a professing believer, there are some environment He may have put us in, that cannot be the same for withdrawing from when it is the work place or the home since there, by the grace of God, we can serve Him as a light in a dark place.

Here are two scriptural references that cites the work place where a believer may suffer being defrauded and being victimized by a froward employer.

James 5:1Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. 3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. 4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. 5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. 6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. 9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. 10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. 11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

So this topic should not be about removing yourself from toxic people, but rather trusting the Lord Jesus Christ as your Good Shepherd & Friend to help you to follow Him in how to be a light in a dark world and when to withdraw with His help.

Goodness, what a bunch of nonsense.

And who are the dogs and swine the Bible refers to there, CB4u?

Are these poor, sweet Christians we are denying our goodness to?

Your ref. to Matt. 18:10 was nothing short of heretical.

 

[STAND]

I reckon you have to define or categorize what a toxic person is. Can you give three examples for consideration and discernment?

I had thought of one where a spouse physically abuse the other. I would see that as an unbelieving spouse not pleased to live with that believing spouse for why the believing spouse should feel free to depart to get a divorce.

1 Corinthias 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. 16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife? 17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

Unfortunately, that only applies to an unbelieving spouse and not a believing spouse. with a believing spouse, I would say being separated for a while praying for one another is the call here as discernment is needed for what is messing the union up; because dark forces may be at work..

I am not applying verbal abuse as an excuse to withdraw. Spouses always say things they do not mean and apologize for it albeit, they should take it to Jesus in prayer for forgiveness and help not to do that again. When it is an unbelieving spouse, forgiving that unbelieving spouse for they know not what they do in saying those things may also lead the believing spouse by the Lord to say something to pacify that spouse.

Proverbs 15:1A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger..... 23 A man hath joy by the answer of his mouth: and a word spoken in due season, how good is it!

Provers 25:11 A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.

Anyway, feel free to assign cases regarding that toxic person because I am living in a toxic environment and yet this was prophesied in dreams/nightmares since I was a tot and there is no escaping it until He brings me Home... and I do so wish to escape to the Lord now.

At least He is my refuge in the storms of this life as I pray He will continually keep me from my sins and to help me to think on good things.

You and your cronies here are trying very hard to steer the discussion into the realm of the physical and keep all spirituality out of it.

There is a spiritual dynamic at play when a committed Christian, who prays and studies the Bible daily, is attacked and harassed by someone in their life. Therefore, your scenarios are misrepresenting the matter.

God intends His children to be free of the trappings of the world and the devil intends to tangle them in the many varying concerns of the world. Toxic people are those being used, or sent, by the devil. A committed Christian, who follows the ways of Christ, will not ever be a Toxic Person.

We are to untangle ourselves from Toxic People and walk away.

 

[STAND]

If somebody refuses our message, we are to discard them and move along.

If people persecute us, we are to move along.

It is unbiblical to teach that we are to waste the rest of our ministries fooling with the foolish people of this world who will never hear the words of God as they are not His sheep.

"Speak not in the ears of a fool: For he will despise the wisdom of thy words."
Prov. 23:9

 

[Arial]

Christ didn't allow anyone to waste His time, or sidetrack Him, and neither should we.

That depends on what one considers wasting one's time. He spent three years walking among and talking to unbelievers, many of whom were stubborn, arrogant, jealous, self righteous, insulted Him, tried to kill Him, did finally kill Him, chastised, humiliated, called names, etc. He suffered hunger, homelessness, ridicule, was spit on, shamed, nailed to a cross. And He never wavered.

Christ clearly taught that there are two types of people in this world, the Wheat and the Tares. Nowhere did He give any impression that we are to cater to the Tares in any way.

He spent His whole life among the tares, knowing that He was the Good Shepherd who called those God was giving Him and that they would hear His voice. This is both a blessing for those called, and a judgment on those who deny Him. So, who has even said that we are to cater to unbelievers? Or do you also consider some believers to be tares? In any case, it is a straw man statement.

These are children of the devil - another fully sound doctrine of Scripture. They have been placed into society to derail God's purposes, to create negative trends among the children of God and to destroy all the good God intends in this world.

Even you were once a child of the devil. Eph 2. They were not placed in society, they are all people. And no one can derail God's purposes. (Dan 4:35; Is 46:10; Prov 19:21; Psalm 135:6) The only people who are no longer children of the devil are those God has redeemed in Christ. "Negative trends among the children of God and to destroy all the good God intends in this world" is just a bunch of unbiblical gobble di goop borrowed from the wisdom of the world.

Yes, we ARE to judge those within the Faith - as God is the judge of those outside the Faith. Yet, just because someone is not a professed Christian, that certainly does not make them a golden opportunity for our ministry despite all other factors to the contrary.

Or we could just obey God and preach the gospel and leave the result up to the one in whose hands that is. And treat people with respect as he says to, since they were made in His image and likeness. Instead of labeling them toxic and dismissing them, not showing them mercy even though we have been shown great mercy, and very well may have been quite toxic ourselves at one time. That does not mean we have to have them as a part of our lives! And it does not automatically mean we should not have them as part of our lives. God seems to have completely been dismissed from the issue. Wisdom should be the way of discernment in the matter. Which God will give if we ask, but that wisdom will still be found in His word and therefore consistent with it. All of it. He gives us whole books within His book, on what wisdom looks like.

There was a reason God commanded disobedient children to be stoned to death in the OT. It was to prevent as many of the Toxic People who we wrestle with today from procreating and infesting the earth. God knew He wouldn't eliminate them entirely, but He intended to diminish their numbers significantly.

Is that the reason? You will need to provide proof of that from His mouth. Scripture.

We have a very short time here and our ministry is priceless. Toxic people are not to be tolerated and it is not God's will that we waste any more time on them than is necessary to suss them out and eliminate them from our ranks.

Ok. So what is needed here is GOD'S definition of toxic----not yours---which btw you have never clearly defined. "Toxic people!" this and "Toxic people that!" And we are left knowing that you mean something specific, but at a loss as to what that is, since it is never clarified. There is a good definition of the meaning of toxic as used in the psychology of counseling in post # 45. Would you agree with that? Or is the one who posted it considered as so toxic he was put on ignore? A waste of precious time that is so valued in the OP and subsequent comments by the OP.

 

[Arial]

You and your cronies here are trying very hard to steer the discussion into the realm of the physical and keep all spirituality out of it.

As @Josheb said---gas lighting. Look it up.

 

[Josheb]

The popular opinion in this thread is that we should never part ways with anyone in this life.

That would not be my point of view.

That we should consider all people, no matter how problematic, as possible converts and spend as much time and energy as it takes to reach and convert them.

LOL! This is a forum predominated by monergists! We do not know who will be converted but we firmly believe the number is fixed and, therefore, not all people are possible converts.

That is not simple ignorance, it is intentional deception.

Nice toxic statement: attack those who disagree without warrant, acting like the right party who's offended.

Christ didn't allow anyone to waste His time, or sidetrack Him, and neither should we.

Neither you or I are Jesus. People who assume roles they do not possess are acting in a toxic manner. People who fail to understand certain roles, or positions have power, privilege, and license to act in ways most others should not are lacking in understanding pertaining to the liberty Jesus and the apostles had that we do not. To overgeneralize Jesus' actions as examples for all people in all circumstances is logically fallacious.

That most certainly did not come from Gary Thomas. Thomas understands each person and each relationship has a set of standardized goals and boundaries and a set of uniquie ones.

Christ clearly taught that there are two types of people in this world, the Wheat and the Tares.

No, Jesus used a simple analogy in a specific situation with specific context and never actually stated only two kinds of people exist when it comes to toxicity. The one thing the tares and wheat both share is sin.

Nowhere did He give any impression that we are to cater to the Tares in any way.

No one has remotely suggest tares be "catered" to. This is a red herring, one employed to dismiss the dissent and marginalize those disagreeing. It's a common sign of toxicity, especially since the alternative is to listen to others' points of view with manners and respect., agreeing to disagree only where an actual understanding of others and an actual disagreement exists.

These are children of the devil - another fully sound doctrine of Scripture.

That would imply a toxic person could never get saved, that God never decided to save any toxic person, and toxicity is beyond God's ability. That is bad theology.

They have been placed into society to derail God's purposes, to create negative trends among the children of God and to destroy all the good God intends in this world.

All things serve God's purpose.

Toxic people are Tares, they are children of the devil........

I'd be careful with these legalistic absolutist statements because, given the content of these posts, they become self-indicting.

 

[Arial]

You and your cronies here are trying very hard to steer the discussion into the realm of the physical and keep all spirituality out of it.

There is a spiritual dynamic at play when a committed Christian, who prays and studies the Bible daily, is attacked and harassed by someone in their life. Therefore, your scenarios are misrepresenting the matter.

God intends His children to be free of the trappings of the world and the devil intends to tangle them in the many varying concerns of the world. Toxic people are those being used, or sent, by the devil. A committed Christian, who follows the ways of Christ, will not ever be a Toxic Person.

We are to untangle ourselves from Toxic People and walk away.

2 Cor 10:3-5 For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to Christ

1 Peter 4:12-16 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler. Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.

We each have responsibility before God. We can only do what is our responsibility, in the ways in which God is dealing with us. God deals with others, just as He deals with us. As Christians, we are guaranteed suffering and persecution. We do not escape the world we live in at salvation. We get a different world view. And suffering and persecution is a testing and refining for us. We are told to endure, and to endure in the ways in which He tells us to endure. He does not tell us to run away from this fire of testing and strengthening, casting people out of our lives so we never learn to take our own thoughts captive to Christ, never learn to bear up under insult and hardship. God never speaks of toxic people.

 

[Arial]

Goodness, what a bunch of nonsense.

And who are the dogs and swine the Bible refers to there, CB4u?

Are these poor, sweet Christians we are denying our goodness to?

Your ref. to Matt. 18:10 was nothing short of heretical.

If I were to give an example of a toxic behavior I could use this as one. It is dismissive without offering any counter position---to a post that was mostly quoted Scripture. It leaps from the "dogs and swine" scriptures to asking a question that moves the goalpost of toxic non-Christians (? Still not clear on that as the majority attacks from the OP have been on believers) to something irrelevant to the conversation. Then calls the use of a particular Scripture as being used heretically, but never demonstrates how or why the accusation of heresy is valid.

It attacks. It is divisive. It stirs up strife. It offers no edification, no attempt of communication of ideas, no addressing of any issue being discussed.

 

[Josheb]

I do want to spend more time on this op but I'm fairly busy this week. For now, I'll provide a fairly simple concept, one that is found in scripture more than once. This op has incorrectly asserted the dissent hold to endlessness when that's not true. I don't read anyone here saying toxic people have endless liberty to abuse others or that those finding themselves interacting with toxic people must endlessly tolerate them and endlessly love them by letting the toxic person be toxic. That criticism is a complete straw man.

I've already posted about goals, boundaries, and expectations being one means of measuring both healthy, functional people and relationships and toxic unhealthy and abusive people and relationships. One of the places this can be found in scripture is the "three strikes" rule.

Matthew 18:15-17 ESV
If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Titus 3:9-11 ESV
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

In both these instances there is an initial step directed (commanded). If that does not prove to effect change, then there is a second step directed. In the Matthew text a third step is explicitly directed but it should not be thought the Titus text is legalistically limited to only two "warnings." Anyone has liberty to warn a third time. Whether two or three actions are taken, the result is the same: have nothing to do with the person.




And it certainly was within the ability of this op to practice that standard, well within the op's ability to post those scriptures and "warn" or expect the same from us. That clearly did not happen. Instead, everyone was attacked. That response is also described at various points throughout the Bible but one of the most salient (for the purposes of this op) is found in Galatians 5.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Most people read through that text quickly because they do not identify with the immorality, sorcery, or drunkenness but in the midst of those extremes are some rather ordinary and commonplace behaviors: enmity, strife, disputes, and dissent. There is a substantive difference between division and divisiveness. This op manifested enmity, strife, and divisive disputes and dissent almost immediately and it did so despite requests for more Biblical methods of discussing any disagreements.

Scripture clearly sets standards, and the standards it sets have goals, boundaries, and expectations, AND limits. Anyone in this thread who's been asked once, asked twice, even asked a third time to discuss things as scripture directs and does not should be ignored (not endlessly engaged in a misguided effort to bring them around to a different view). They have, according to scripture, proved who and what they are, and we're to have nothing to do with them. When we don't do that, we end up being joining the already existing disobedience. Toxic people like it when we become like them.

Lastly, while practice the Matthew and Titus texts there is also a means by which we do so because asking for someone to change with the words and approach of someone like, say Jeremiah, looks much different than someone like, say, the apostle John. Same message; different messenger. Tose going through life always acting like Jeremiah are toxic. The same, ironically holds true for those always acting like John. Extremes are always toxic. It does not matter whether it is the extreme of legalism or the extreme of antinomianism; the extreme of boundary-less mercy or the extreme of the punitive. Anything in scripture can be abused toxically.

Ephesians 4:25-32
Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. Be angry but do not sin.... and do not give the devil an opportunity........... Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Philippians 2:1-5
Therefore, if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus...

Colossians 4:5-6
Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.

Those are just samples of the many directives scripture provides, all of which can be toxically abused. The point is this idea anyone who disagrees with this op necessarily subscribes to the belief, "we should never part ways with anyone in this life......... and spend as much time and energy as it takes to reach and convert them," or "are trying very hard to steer the discussion into the realm of the physical and keep all spirituality out of it," is just hogwash that should be recanted and amended as scripture directs lest we have nothing to do with the op (other than establishing correct biblical standards before moving on).


I'll post some others as time and inclination permit.