Dating Revelation - combined internal evidences for AD 60

[Ghada]

As to people writing their own prophecies...No, they quote the bible.

No, they don't quote the Bible, but their own words. Nowhere does the Bible say Jesus returns 'twice', nor comes to earth a 'third' time.

They're simply trying to figure out the who, what, when, where, why's and how of the prophecy.

No, they are trying to figure out how to write their own prophecy, while appearing to read the Bible.

And they get so caught up in their own figurings, that they forget people can read and compare their words with Bible words, and see their words are not even in the Bible.

The Bible is not hidden somewhere. We can still read it and see if what people say about it is so, or not.

The only question remains why. No doubt part of it is the fun of intellectual argument for its own sake, rather than just reading the Book, and believing it or not.

 

[Ghada]

I can see little thought was put into that and the prejudices precluded understanding. The sentence, "I'd place it about 65-66," simply means it was written sometime during the years 65 and/or 66, NOT that he was on the island for only a year.

Good correction. But since I see this as just a speculation game, then I was having a little fun with it.

Until anyone can disprove the traditional history of John imprisoned by Domitian on Patmos in the 90's, then it's all just more endless speculation, about something that has nothing to do with doctrine and prophecy of Scripture.

Yes, and it he ended it without any mention of Peter or Paul's deaths, or Jerusalem having been destroyed and Israel overrun with war. That is evidence Christ ended Acts prior to the late 60s.

No, this is evidence of trying to prove something by a negative. Without a positive proven, it's just speculation.

Had Acts been written after those events it is extraordinary likely there would have been mention of all three events.

Likely, is speculation of what readers want to read that is not there.

Reading the Bible with our own understanding, motives, and demands is how the Scriptures are mishandled and corrrupted, especially in doctrine and prophecy.

How would the history of the early Church not include three of the most significant and world-changing events in its history if it was written afterward?

The most important event that matters forever, is that Jesus Christ is recorded come in the flesh, living without sin, dying on a cross, and resurrecting from the dead.

The tradition is that Peter thought so little of his own death, that it ought not even be compared to the Lord's. Much less written about in Scripture.

The deaths of the other apostles dying during the NT era were recorded.

Interesting. I only read of Stephen.

But, once again, who cares? If this is all about 'preterism', then we easily know some things of Revelation were fulfilled during that time:

The works of the churches judged by Jesus. Many antichrists had already come to corrupt the churches. Jersualem was spiritually as Sodom and Egypt. And the temple of the Lord on earth was being trampled in the flesh...Still is.

 

[Ghada]

When prophesies are fulfilled in the NT it is noted. How then would the fulfillment of Jerusalem's destruction not be noted if the scriptures were written after those prophecies were fulfilled?

Now this is a valid challenge for a practice of prophecy in Scripture.

Is any fulfilled prophecy of Scripture always written in Scripture, if Scripture is still being written on earth?

If there is such an evident practice seen in Scripture, then that would at least validly question why the Lord's prophecy of the temple's destruction is not mentioned in Scripture. If Scripture is written afterward.

It's still wouldn't prove anything, since it would be at most an exception to a rule of prophecy by Christ, not a transgression of His law.

 

[Ghada]

Without internal Bible proof, then the historical tradition of John on Patmos in the 90's is accepted.

We also have Jesus' prophecy for John dying at a great old age:

Jhn 21:22
Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Jhn 21:23
Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

He was so old, including more than a year on Patmos in old age, that many thought he would not die at all, or at least not until the Lord come again His second time.

I'm surprised someone hasn't suggested John wrote Revelation before being on Patmos. Afterall, it's been suggested he may have spent 35 years on the Island prison, so that he wrote Revelation long before the 90's.

 

[Ghada]

The problem is modern futurist teachers have not had a single prediction correct in nearly 200 years. They ALL have a 100% fail rate. When it comes to eschatology, every single one of them has proven to be a false teacher.

Of course. Jesus warned there would be false christs coming by false prophecies, including those by predictions of the Lord's return to earth.

Predicting the coming of the last great antichrist before the Lord's second coming to earth, is still being used by over-zealous ministers to 'energize' the church, as well as false prophets to energize their power and incomes.

Which has nothing to do with many antichrists are come. And many saints endure much tribulation and persecution on earth. And we are in the last days known by the apostles.

Rightly dividing the Bible ought include rightly dividing what people teach from the Bible.

I have found some that do neither, as though doing the former will necessitate doing the latter.

 

[Mr GLee]

The "abomination of desolation" desolation. Desolation is an abomination. Desolation is an abomination of desolation. The abomination is the desolation.

Yes the abomination . Dying mankind in the place (invisible head our Father ) That can be seen I believe below making desolate unseen head breaking the first commandment .Jesus the Son of man would never stand in the place of the invisible head the Holy Father (blasphemy)

Mark 10:16-1818King James Version16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Its the goal of Satan from the beginning of time to deceive all the nations of the world (dying mankind) to believe God is a Jewish man as King of kings.

When the veil torn from the top to the bottom to represent the foreskin of our bloody husband Christ as in circummsion

There was no Jewish man as King of kings siting in the Holy of Holies .

Satan fell he could no longer deceive al the nations that God a is a dying creation. He will be released for a short time to again deceive dying mankind in the same way

 

[CrowCross]

No, they don't quote the Bible, but their own words. Nowhere does the Bible say Jesus returns 'twice', nor comes to earth a 'third' time.

Jesus came the first time in His incarnation.
Jesus comes a second time at the resurrection and rapture....but in the clouds.
Jesus comes a third time at the end of the tribulation riding a white horse.

No, they are trying to figure out how to write their own prophecy, while appearing to read the Bible.

And they get so caught up in their own figurings, that they forget people can read and compare their words with Bible words, and see their words are not even in the Bible.

The Bible is not hidden somewhere. We can still read it and see if what people say about it is so, or not.

The only question remains why. No doubt part of it is the fun of intellectual argument for its own sake, rather than just reading the Book, and believing it or not.

Problem is when certain people insist their view is the correct and only view. They act as if they have it all figured out and typically turn to mocking other views.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes the abomination . Dying mankind in the place (invisible head our Father ) That can be seen I believe below making desolate unseen head breaking the first commandment .Jesus the Son of man would never stand in the place of the invisible head the Holy Father (blasphemy)

Mark 10:16-1818King James Version16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Its the goal of Satan from the beginning of time to deceive all the nations of the world (dying mankind) to believe God is a Jewish man as King of kings.

When the veil torn from the top to the bottom to represent the foreskin of our bloody husband Christ as in circummsion

There was no Jewish man as King of kings siting in the Holy of Holies .

Satan fell he could no longer deceive al the nations that God a is a dying creation. He will be released for a short time to again deceive dying mankind in the same way

Why is what you post not a deception? Oh, that's right...you quoted the bible. My bad.

 

[CherubRam]

Only if someone needs him to be for the sake of their teaching.

John was not on an prison island apart from the ministry of Christ for 35 years. He was imprisoned by Domition in the 90's AD.

All this is just another play-game of intellectual speculation, that treats the Bible like a book of legends and myths and cypher codes.

If there is a document that says John was imprisoned about 90 AD, then that is most likely true.

 

[Josheb]

Now this is a valid challenge for a practice of prophecy in Scripture.

Yes, it is valid.

Is any fulfilled prophecy of Scripture always written in Scripture, if Scripture is still being written on earth?

That is irrelevant of the point being made. Don't change the subject.

 

[3 Resurrections]

We also have Jesus' prophecy for John dying at a great old age:

Jhn 21:22
Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Jhn 21:23
Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

That was Lazarus in John 21:20-24 who was "the disciple whom Jesus loved" (John 11:3 & 5). In his resurrected glorified body, Lazarus the "beloved disciple" "tarried" until Christ's first-century coming return. Christ didn't have to say anything at all to the other disciples about this beloved disciple dying, because He had already told the disciples in Luke 20:35-36 concerning anybody who had been resurrected, "neither CAN they die anymore, for they are equal unto the angels..." .

If there is a document that says John was imprisoned about 90 AD, then that is most likely true.

This is only tradition introduced at a certain point, as Ghada freely admits. Tradition is not gospel truth. There are also traditions and records that say John was exiled by Nero. Which are you going to believe? Not that any of this EXTERNAL documentation is at all applicable to the INTERNAL evidence of scripture for the dating of Revelation - which is the subject of this post.

 

[Josheb]

Good correction.

Yes, it was.

But since I see this as just a speculation game, then I was having a little fun with it.

meh

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

Jesus came the first time in His incarnation.
Jesus comes a second time at the resurrection and rapture....but in the clouds.
Jesus comes a third time at the end of the tribulation riding a white horse.

Problem is when certain people insist their view is the correct and only view. They act as if they have it all figured out and typically turn to mocking other views.

Pot calling the kettle black. Look your very next post.

 

[Mr GLee]

Why is what you post not a deception? Oh, that's right...you quoted the bible. My bad.

Do you think the living word of God is deceiving.?

I do trust the Bible as it is writen I would think we protect or care for that which defends .The Word of God

 

[Ghada]

Jesus came the first time in His incarnation.

True

Jesus comes a second time at the resurrection and rapture....but in the clouds.

True again.

Jesus comes a third time at the end of the tribulation riding a white horse.

Don't read of any third time coming.

Problem is when certain people insist their view is the correct and only view.

Just reading Scripture out loud is sufficient. I read Him coming a second time, not a third time. Nor returning twice.

The words three, third, twice just aren't there for the Lord coming to earth.

They act as if they have it all figured out and typically turn to mocking other views.

I don't mock them, but just reject them if not written.

The mockery is being made out of the Bible, by teaching the Bible with words not written in it.

Go to any child and ask how many times the Lord comes to earth. They'll read it for you and tell you.

Psa 8:2
Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

Mat 21:16
And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

Maybe you could paste the words three, third, or twice in the pages of the Lord coming to earth. But even then a little child will wonder about that.

 

[CrowCross]

Pot calling the kettle black. Look your very next post.

LOL...if you say so.

 

[CrowCross]

True


True again.

Don't read of any third time coming.

Just reading Scripture out loud is sufficient. I read Him coming a second time, not a third time. Nor returning twice.

The words three, third, twice just aren't there for the Lord coming to earth.


I don't mock them, but just reject them if not written.

The mockery is being made out of the Bible, by teaching the Bible with words not written in it.

Go to any child and ask how many times the Lord comes to earth. They'll read it for you and tell you.

Psa 8:2
Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

Mat 21:16
And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

Maybe you could paste the words three, third, or twice in the pages of the Lord coming to earth. But even then a little child will wonder about that.

Count them.....incarnation...that's one right?

Jesus then died, resurrected then ascended...right so far?

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

LOL...if you say so.

SEriously. Look at your own posts. Such a mocker of everything and everyone.

 

[CrowCross]

SEriously. Look at your own posts. Such a mocker of everything and everyone.

As I said....if you say so.

 

[Ghada]

If there is a document that says John was imprisoned about 90 AD, then that is most likely true.

The traditional agreement is John was banished by Domitian. Aside from internal Bible evidence, or any other documents, there's never been any reason not to accept it.

Jesus' prophecy is of John living into great old age, so that some even thought the prophecy meant he would not die, or at least not until the Lord's return.

The arguments for an earlier imprisonment by as much as 30 years, are all for an irrelavent argument pertaining to Bible doctrine and prophecy.

The demand to see Jerusalem's destruction in any Scripture written after the event, is only made by readers demanding Christ write something in Scripture, that He has not chosen to.

Noting that prophecy fulfilled in the age of Scripture writing on earth, is recorded in Scripture, is a good point, but is not a rule demanding it.