Dating Revelation - combined internal evidences for AD 60

[Ghada]

I would offer can't put no wine (life) in old combiner (dying flesh and blood)

The Spirit of Christ is not put into natural flesh and blood, but only pure souls and hearts dwelling in natural earthen vessels.

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

To be made alive is to be resurrected. altogether one work

Raised to life in soul and spirit by birth of the Spirit. Not bodily resurrected until after the grave.

However those remaining alive in Christ on earth at His coming, will be instantly bodily changed into immortality.

 

[3 Resurrections]

However those remaining alive in Christ on earth at His coming, will be instantly bodily changed into immortality.

Not unless they physically die first. There is no promise of a translation-type change of the body for those who have never died yet.

 

[Mr GLee]

The Spirit of Christ is not put into natural flesh and blood, but only pure souls and hearts dwelling in natural earthen vessels.


Raised to life in soul and spirit by birth of the Spirit. Not bodily resurrected until after the grave.

However those remaining alive in Christ on earth at His coming, will be instantly bodily changed into immortality.

Christ pours out HIs Holy Spirit on dying making flesh and blood. The new spirit enters our new heart and soul. altogether one work of God, no work is accredited to the dying Jesus the Son of man all glory goes to the Father

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Not a shift changer. New creature. old dead and buried.

Study what it means "not of us" to include Jesus the ones with no power to please the Father

2 Corinthias 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.


Is there a particular denomination that does teach what you understand?

 

[Ghada]

No, its not broken.

1Co 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Christ is the firstfruts of them that slept, which applies to all bodies in the grave, and specifically to the faithful dead.

The term "First-fruitS" is PLURAL persons -not single stalks of grain picked at various times over the centuries. There were 144,000 "First-fruits" in Rev. 14:4. These composed the "First resurrection" group event along with "Christ the First-fruits". There can be a few individual persons on a case-by-case basis raised from the dead in scripture who don't necessarily have to be part of that group of 144,000 First-fruits resurrected along with Christ.

Turning to meaningless word distputes to avoid plaining meaning of what is said, is called doting about words to reject what they say.

It could be called disecting and straining over one word in Scripture, while swallowing the others whole.

Jesus Christ is the firstfruits from the dead of all them that sleep, both before and after His resurrection from the dead.

It's also a partially-played word game. It avoids considering all uses of firstfruits in the Bible.

Rom 16:5
Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
1Co 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Both are single person firstfruits being at the head of a group that follows. In Christ's case, twice we are told He is at the Head of all resurrected bodies from the grave. In Epaenetus' case, he is the first of all born again saints in Achaia.

Neh 10:35
And to bring the firstfruits of our ground, and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees, year by year, unto the house of the LORD:
Neh 10:37
And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.

We also see it applies to fruit trees individually picked for an offering to the Lord. There may be different pieces from kinds of trees in a group, but each is one piece from one tree.

And finally by grammar, we see the same word itself can be translated interchangeably between singular or plural, so that any argument by singular or plural translation is made meaningless:

Deu 18:4
The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him.

Whether firstfruit or fruits, it means the same for a thine of oil, a single fleece of sheep, or bundle of wheat.

Rom 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Rev 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Jesus Christ is the holy firstfruit, root, and vine at the Head of all resurrections from the dead that follow. First, at His coming with His own saints, and lastly with all the rest of the dead resurrected unto judgment of works.

Col 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Christ being the firstfruit or fruits (Seeing either translation is correct), is the firstborn from the dead, and at the Head of all resurrected bodies of men and women from the grave.

He is the beginning of bodily resurrections, that He might have the preeminence in all things in heaven, on earth, and under the earth. (He also went to hell to have the preeminence there as well.)

This is the real offence with people trying to prophecy other bodies resurrected before the Lord, whether it be pagans or namers of CHrist, so that Jesus Christ becomes just one of many in a group: Just another stalk of wheat or corn in the bundle...

If this group resurrection of Jesus Christ ideology, is not from a created christ effort to take Him down a peg or two, so that He's not preeminent in all things with God, then it certainly could be useful to those who reject Him as Lord and God.

This unique "First-begotten" title applies only and always to Christ alone as being the FIRST TO ASCEND in a glorified, resurrected body and be face-to-face with God the Father in heaven.

Heb 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

The first and only begotten Son of God in the womb coming into the world, is worshipped at the command of God by all His angels. (The angels that sinned didn't worship the firstbegotten coming into the word at birth, nor do inhabitors of the earth that don't believe it...)

 

[3 Resurrections]

Turning to meaningless word distputes to avoid plaining meaning of what is said, is called doting about words to reject what they say.

It could be called disecting and straining over one word in Scripture, while swallowing the others whole.

Jesus Christ is the firstfruits from the dead of all them that sleep, both before and after His resurrection from the dead.

I'm sure you remember Paul making a doctrinal point based entirely upon "seeds" (PLURAL) as opposed to "Seed" SINGULAR, which was Christ.

I am doing the same thing here - paying particular attention to "First-fruitS" PLURAL as scripture has applied it to both the resurrected Christ and the resurrected 144,000 First-fruits OT Israelite saints.

Heb 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

The first and only begotten Son of God in the womb coming into the world, is worshipped at the command of God by all His angels. (The angels that sinned didn't worship the firstbegotten coming into the word at birth, nor do inhabitors of the earth that don't believe it...)

That is NOT Christ's birth as an infant being discussed in those two verses. It was the Son of Man becoming the "First-born" and the "First-begotten" to ascend to the Father in heaven. Something was born in heaven that morning that had never existed there before - a glorified, resurrected human form standing before the Ancient of Days - the "Firstborn among many brethren" who would eventually ascend to the Father also.

The word order is not exact in the Hebrews 1:6 verse as you have it above. The Interlinear renders it, "And when again he brings in the first-born into the habitable world, he says, And let all the angels worship him." This is a repetition of God bringing the First-born into the world AGAIN on the morning of His resurrection-day ascension to the Father, when the resurrected Jesus Christ AGAIN returned to earth that morning, just after God had anointed the ascended Jesus Christ as our Great High Priest in heaven. This was certainly cause for worship by the angels, since the newly-ascended Jesus Christ had just won the war against Satan and his angels in heaven (Rev. 12:7-12).

 

[Mr GLee]

I am doing the same thing here - paying particular attention to "First-fruitS" PLURAL as scripture has applied it to both the resurrected Christ and the resurrected 144,000 First-fruits OT Israelite saints.

The 144,000 the golden measure a unknow. no need to.

Gold represent faith Christ's power) the hidden things of God



Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein

Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man (literal ), that is, of the apostle, the messenger .

 

[3 Resurrections]

The 144,000 the golden measure a unknow. no need to.

The number of resurrected 144,000 First-fruits can be both a symbolic number as well as a literal amount. One sense does not rule out the other meaning necessarily.

 

[Ghada]

Not unless they physically die first.

You got this one right. If anyone dies on earth, then they are not anyone remaining alive on earth.

There is no promise of a translation-type change of the body for those who have never died yet.

Not for those who never repent for Jesus.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Not for those who never repent for Jesus.

This applies to believers also. All must pass through the physical death process in order to experience that "change" into the incorruptible and immortal body form given in the resurrection process as laid down in 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[Ghada]

Christ pours out HIs Holy Spirit on dying making flesh and blood.

True.

Act 2:17

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Upon all flesh, not in any flesh.

With the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Spirit of Christ is now poured upon all flesh, to convict people of sins and trespasses.

No spirit is in any natureal flesh, blood, and bone.

Jhn 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The new spirit enters our new heart and soul.

True, by repentance from old sins and trespasses.

altogether one work of God, no work is accredited to the dying Jesus the Son of man all glory goes to the Father

No one rejecting Jesus Christ as both Lord and God, has any of His Spirit.

Not a shift changer. New creature. old dead and buried.

True. The old man and lust of heart is passed away, and all things of the heart and life are new.

And if they live in newness of life unto the end, then they are in the presence of the Lord, and their natural old dead body in the grave will be resurrected unto everlasting life.

Is there a particular denomination that does teach what you understand?

Not any you're in. Not that it matters. I dispute Scripture with individuals, not churches.

 

[Ghada]

I'm sure you remember Paul making a doctrinal point based entirely upon "seeds" (PLURAL) as opposed to "Seed" SINGULAR, which was Christ.

Yes. But the analogy is not true. Seed and seeds are distinctly of one seed or of many seeds. Fruit and fruits are interchangeable in Scripture, as being both fruits of one or fruits of many.

And since it's shown in Scripture, the same word can be translated as firstfruit and firstfruits. Therefore, the translation is by choice of the translator:

Rom 16:5
Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruit of Achaia unto Christ.
1Co 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruit of them that slept.
Rom 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

These are grammatically correct, and more clearly show their singular difference with firstfruits of many.

I am doing the same thing here - paying particular attention to "First-fruitS" PLURAL as scripture has applied it to both the resurrected Christ and the resurrected 144,000 First-fruits OT Israelite saints.

You are doing the same error (which is now manifestly purposed) by excluding some verses from the argument, such as the convert Epaenetus and Christ the root.

That is NOT Christ's birth as an infant being discussed in those two verses.

The Scriptures are given for it.

It was the Son of Man becoming the "First-born" and the "First-begotten" to ascend to the Father in heaven.

According to Scripture given, firstbegotten from the womb, firstborn from the dead.

The word order is not exact in the Hebrews 1:6 verse as you have it above. The Interlinear renders it, "And when again he brings in the first-born into the habitable world, he says, And let all the angels worship him."

Another false handling of words, to insert a doctrine that is not there:

Heb 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

What He says, is again, and again. Not what He is saying about the Son coming into the world.

Furthermore, applying firstbegotten only to coming again, must also apply being Son of the Father only to coming again: So that He was neither the firstbegotten coming in the flesh, nor was He the Son of the Father in the flesh.

This also reveals a unique kinship to antichrist rejection of Jesus Christ coming in the flesh, as not being the firstbegotten Son of God coming in the flesh.

A simlar antichrist kinship is made by some ideologues, that preach man is now born sinners with sin nature: They say Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh of sinful man, but in some other kind of superman flesh. (Which is also similar to pagan heroes and demigods with unnatural super-bodies born of the gods)

Jesus Christ come in the flesh declares the mystery of the Godhead from the beginning of the world: It's not just Jesus is come in the flesh, but Jesus Christ the Word and God come in the flesh. In the same flesh and blood of all men. And the firstbegotten Son of the Father come in the flesh.

I always apreciate a new teaching of error on such things. I add them to growing list, so as to spot them sooner in the future. Thanks.

 

[Ghada]

Something was born in heaven that morning that had never existed there before

Now we are seeing the created christ ideology lurking around all the erroneous arguments: Neither the Word nor Christ was never 'born' in heaven, as angels are created in heaven by Christ the Word.

The Word's body was born on earth, to be bodily born the firstbegotten of the Spirit from the womb. His body was then the firstborn from the dead.

The Word and God was never born nor created in heaven.

Now we see the necessity of a firinge argument against Jesus Christ being the firstbegotten coming in the flesh, which is against Him being the Son of the Father in the flesh on earth.

It's to make Him only born and anointed by God after His resurrection from the dead. It's the teaching of the created christers, that Jesus was deified in heaven by anointing, and was not God in heaven. (It's akin to the pagan demigods born of the gods, deified by the gods in heaven after their death on earth)

This is a repetition of God bringing the First-born into the world AGAIN on the morning of His resurrection-day ascension to the Father, when the resurrected Jesus Christ AGAIN returned to earth that morning,

He was the only-begotten Son of the Father coming on earth: Only once begotten on earth. Not the firstbegotten again on the earth.

just after God had anointed the ascended Jesus Christ as our Great High Priest in heaven.

He was the high priest Melchisedec from the beginning, having neither father nor mother, until coming into the world with a prepared body of flesh, born of woman, and a Son to the Father.

He became the first and only begotten Son of the Father on earth by the Spirit, and the son of His mother Mary by the womb. Before the Word was made flesh on earth: He had no Father nor Mother in heaven. (Neither in the beginning with God, nor now with Mary)

Once again, this smacks of the created christ heresy. Jesus Christ was the Anointed One from the beginning. The Word was not anointed by God like angels and men.

Now Lucifer is being preached as the resurrected Christ of God:

Eze 28:14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Seeking to be the Anointed One Christ, is the error of Lucifer who lusted in his heart to become as God and the Word:

Isa 14:13
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

That is the anointed created angel, that the idolators preach as their Christ.

Jesus the man was anointed with the Holy Ghost at the baptism of John.

Heb 1:18
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

This was certainly cause for worship by the angels,

As commanded by the Father, when He brought His onlybegotten Son into the world from the womb of Mary.

And the shepherds that heard them with heaven opened, worshipped with them.

since the newly-ascended Jesus Christ had just won the war against Satan and his angels in heaven (Rev. 12:7-12).

And against all men and women that sin, now being judged and condemned with them that had Him crucified with their own sinful hands.

Heb 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 1:13
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

 

[Ghada]

This applies to believers also.

You mean hearers only with the faith of devils, that believe the word of God is true, but repent not to do it.

The paradoxy of James 2, is that Christ is not addressing anyone having no faith, but only those having a faith of their own, that is not His, but their own alone.

Jesus' faith is to always do His righteous will and please God. The faith of sinners is to do unrighteousness, whether all the time, or only from time to time.

Their faith is counted as unbelief and dead to God, because by their faith alone they neither do His will always, not beleive they can. Some even go so far as to claim everyone with faith must have their faith also, because since they aren't doing His rightouness, then no one can. (Which shows how puffed up they are about their own faith.)

It's only the faith of Jesus that saves the soul and justifies the good and righteous works done through Him. The faith of sinful man is his own alone, and may justify himself in his own eyes, but not with Christ. That's the dead faith that is ends with the grave. (At that time they know their faith is only their own alone, and unbelief to God, by the Father's righteous judgment of their works.)

And so, only them that repent of all sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake, recieve His faith into a whole new heart and life of God, being saved from their own works and sins, and justified in their new works with Christ.

The unrepented and half-hearted repented believers, still have their same old hearts of lust, that cannot recieve the righteous faith of Christ, because they refuse it, because they refuse to repent to do His rightoeusnes at all times.

Rom 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

 

[Ghada]

All must pass through the physical death process in order to experience that "change" into the incorruptible and immortal body form given in the resurrection process as laid down in 1 Corinthians 15.

I've given the Scriptures for those alive and remaining.

And only them dying with the faith of Jesus in their hearts, are first resurrected unto life, to meet Him in the air with them remaining on earth and changed alive.

And of course, only them that repent of sins and trespasses for Jesus sake, to do His good will unto the end, are them that die with His faith in their pure hearts and souls.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is so easy, because it is simple enough to be written entirely on one verse alone:

Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

It's the cursed gospel by one's own faith alone, that is confusing. Not because it too can't be written simple, but because they don't want it to be, lest they be exposed with the hypocrisy of only having religion within, but not living it.

The gospel of faith alone is this: Being saved by one's own faith alone without repentance, and justified with dead works.

There really is no such thing as having faith alone, without any works at all. That's not even possible for babes, who know no faith, and are the only ones on earth without doing any works at all.

They don't really preach having faith alone without any works, which is not possible, but rather they preach having their own faith with their good and evil works. It's not faith without any works, by faith with unrighteous works. Neither is it faith alone without any works, but it's their own faith alone without doing good works.

The 'faith alone' gospel is the oldest cursed gospel ever preached on earth: their souls do not die by their sinning, but by the the power of their own faith alone, they certainly will live forever, whether they do good or evil:

Gen 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: {3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

2 Peter
{2:19} While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

They promise a delusional liberty of eternal life, where by the power and will of their own faith alone, they can do good if they so choose, and do evil if they will, and while doing good or evil, they will never be condemned by anyone in heaven nor on earth.

It's the liberty and power of the old pagan gods, that is Christianized through corruption of Scripture of Christ.