Dating Revelation - combined internal evidences for AD 60

[Ghada]

This link is good showing how other books in the New Testament refer to revelation showing that they were written after revelation or at the same time

The only certain time of Revelation written is John on Patmos.

Christ prophecying of the same things through different apostles, doesn't date their writing before nor after the other.

Of course, we do know that the prophets all wrote of the Lord's return and Millennium gvt on earth, before any apostle.

Enoch prophecied the day of the Lord's return before Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jude, and John. That is the manner of His return, not the date.

 

[Ghada]

They why isn’t a seven year tribulation mentioned in Revelation or even anywhere in the Bible?

True. So far, the only sure timeline attmpeted to be shown is between prophecy of the Messiah's coming to earth in Daniel, and the Messiah's coming to earth the first time.

I mean if Revelation is literal then why would a seven year tribulation not be mentioned if that what it’s about?

If the 7 year tribulation were literal...

Where does the bible mention a rapture before a tribulation?

It occurs at His coming again. Afterward, there is triublation and wrath of the Lord upon the inhabitors of the earth.

Jesus says that the judgement happens when He returns

True. Between His righteous wheat on earth, and the unrighteous tares only naming His name.

Matthew 25:
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

This is after sitting on His throne of glory. Not in the air.

First He judges His own people as righteous wheat or unrighteous tares, then He judges the world between neighborly sheep and unneighborly goats.

Matthew 16
27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

True. First between wheat and tares, then between sheep and goats.

 

[Ghada]

I'd place it about 65-66

John was on Patmos for 1 year?

Acts would have ended with a report of the deaths of Paul and Peter.

Acts ends where Christ ends it.

 

[Ghada]

Daniel 9.

The rapture isn't judgement.

Jesus comes back twice....first at the rapture then as described in Rev 19:11 and onward.

I read of the second coming of the Lord to earth.

Not a third.

Rev 19:11 is the Lord's second coming into the air, calling up His resurrected saints to Himself in the air.

The two witnesses in Jerusalem will be two of them, along with all righteous saints since Abel, and including them still remaining alive on earth.

 

[CrowCross]

True. As we see in the gospels, if the dates mattered, then they would be given.

Afterall, the Revelation of Jesus Christ is the revealing of prophetic mysteries, not the burying of them in even more mystery.

Christians are already during the tribulation and wrath of wicked men.

Prior to the tribulation and wrath of God upon wicked men, will all Christians' alive and remaining on earth be caught up to the Lord in the air.

Any naming the name of Christ not caught up, are left behind with the hypocrites of the earth.

Some people say some of the christians will be left behind. I don't know if that's true. I tend to think thet'll be raptured.
Come Bema Seat reward time...they'll have nothing to show yet they'll be saved as if escaping through the fire.

 

[CrowCross]

I read of the second coming of the Lord to earth.

Not a third.

Rev 19:11 is the Lord's second coming into the air, calling up His resurrected saints to Himself in the air.

The two witnesses in Jerusalem will be two of them, along with all righteous saints since Abel, and including them still remaining alive on earth.

Jesus returns twice....in the air at the rapture then on a white horse at the end of the trib.

 

[Ghada]

Daniel 9 and the 70th week says nothing about a future seven year tribulation.

Nor does Daniel 9 say anything of the Lord's coming again. But only of His coming to the cross.

If you read the first half of Daniel 9 you will see that the reason the angel came to tell Daniel about the 70 weeks was an answer to Daniels prayer in the first part of Daniel 9. The 70 weeks was for Daniels people’s not us today

True. The Lord first came to His own flesh and blood.

The 70th week was fulfilled by Antiochus Epehanies

Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh to the cross, before Antiochus.

True the rapture isn’t judgement

The rapture is the judgment: The righteous wheat are caught up with the Lord in the air, and the unrighteous tares naming His name, are left behind with the inhabitors of the earth.

I didn‘t say that it was I was saying that the rewarding and judgement happens right after the rapture

True. The reward of promised cities to the resurrrected saints, and the judgment of nations between sheep and goats, occurs after the slaughter of the armies, and the Lord sits with His gloy in Jerusalem.

 

[Ghada]

A little more internal evidence from Revelation...

Revelation written in early AD 60 , and no later

They figure that an AD 95 composition date for Revelation would allow enough time for a slow, eventual drift into a "lukewarm" status for the church after the city's rebuilding had been completed.

This is the problem with those replacing doctrine of Christ with philosophic science.

Jesus Christ never says the lukewarm believers were ever His own hotly repented saints.

And if a repented saints ever does repent of doing righteousness at all times, and instead settles with doing both good and evil at times, then there is no Scriptural timeline for that.

Jesus speaks of a space of time to repent, but the space is never specifically identified.

My question is, why must it be AFTER the AD 60 earthquake for that complacent condition to be a problem for the Laodicean church? Why couldn't John's rebuke for that Laodicean church's complacency be given BEFORE the AD 60 earthquake took place, decimating the city?

Correct. (Jesus' rebuke...)

So, anyone know when John was on Patmos?

The reason why I believe that this letter to the Laodicean church was written shortly BEFORE the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake is the time-relevant language that God used in Revelation 2:15-17. "I have known thy works, that neither cold art thou nor hot; I would thou wert cold or hot. So, because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to vomit thee out of my mouth; because thou sayest I am rich, and have grown rich, and have need of nothing..." (YLT). A number of other translations also catch this sense of an imminent judgment for the Laodicean church. That judgment would soon arrive for them after John had written Revelation's letter to them.

For any Laodicean namers of Christ reading it.

And any other Christ yesterday and today. Scripture written to one church of God, is written to all churches of God.

We have grounds for believing this judgment of Laodicea to be an earthquake because Christ promised His disciples that for the "beginning of sorrows",

All the Laodicean namers of Christ were killed?

Seneca was only a recording observer of what Christ had already predicted would happen in that generation.

And any generation of many earthquakes.

Act 17:6
And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;

 

[Ghada]

He makes a lot of good points, some of which I may also repeat here in this post. But he is falling into Dr. Gentry's same mistake in using the sixth "king" which "IS" when John was writing as being the emperor Nero. The seven and the eighth "kings" in Revelation 17 were not the Roman emperors, but the eight members of the Jewish high priesthood which came from the family of Annas the high priest. The language describing these high priest "kings of the earth" is very precise, and fits the history of those seven and eighth members of the house of Annas perfectly. We are able to use the dates of those eight "kings" and their appointed terms of service in the high priesthood role to date Revelation's composition prior to AD 63 at the very latest.

John was off Patmos by AD 63?

 

[Ghada]

A simple google search shows a reasonable historical record of John banished to Patmos by Domitian in AD 95.

Sounds good enough for me, since it doesn't matter to doctrine and prophecy of Christ in His Revelation to the churches of God.

Rev 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

One sure thing that must shortly come to pass, pertaining to being justified by Christ and resurrected in His likeness:

Repent of sinning now unto His salvation from sinning. Eating the Passover Lamb of God is done quickly today:

Exo 12:11
And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover.

Deu 16:3
Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.

All of this science stuff is certainly stimulating to the intellect, but is a sideshow having absolutely nothing to do with the revelation of Jesus Christ to His churches yesterday and today:

Rev 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[Ghada]

I notice you didn't answer any of my questions above concerning your own ideas for the identification of these eight "kings", one of which was then currently still living as John was writing. Do you have any thoughts at all on this that would match your proposed composition date of Revelation in the 90's? It's not good enough to simply label my view as "an aberrant belief" if you have nothing to set in its place.

The king that is at the time the prophecy is fulfilled, not necessarily at the time of prophecy.

Rev 17:10
And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The same for when the beast and false prophet are in the LOF, which is only after the Lord's return to earth.

Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Afterall, the Lord prophecies things to come, as though they are come to pass.

The time His prohecies are come to pass, is not at the time they are prophecied, else prophecy is not prophecy...

 

[CherubRam]

John was on Patmos for 35 years?

Perhaps, it is uncertain.

 

[Ghada]

Some people say some of the christians will be left behind.

Only the unrighteous servants naming His name.

Come Bema Seat reward time...they'll have nothing to show yet they'll be saved as if escaping through the fire.

2Co 5:9
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Co 5:11
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences

It's a warning of terror to all that name the name of Christ, that we too will be judged righteously by our works. It's not a promise of rewards to everyone naming His name on earth.

The judgment seat of Christ at the Lord's return is the righteous judgment of works, between His good wheat and the bad tares.

The reward for the righteous will be resurrection and meeting Him the air. The reward for the unrighteous will be left on earth with the world they love more than the Lord.

The harmless errors of ministry in 1 Cor 3 are not unrighteous works of the flesh.

No soul escapes the righteous judgment of the Lord against all workers of iniquity.

First Jews and then Christians that are walking with the world, but escaping the judgment of the world, is the oldest and greatest lie in the Book:

Gen 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Rom 2:3
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

 

[CrowCross]

The reward for the righteous will be resurrection and meeting Him the air.

This sounds like salvation by works.

 

[Ghada]

Jesus returns twice....in the air at the rapture then on a white horse at the end of the trib.

The Bible prophesied the Lord's first coming, and now prophecies His second coming.

People writing their own prophecies is nothing new. The only question is why.

 

[CrowCross]

The Bible prophesied the Lord's first coming, and now prophecies His second coming.

People writing their own prophecies is nothing new. The only question is why.

Many missed the first coming. They still argue Isaiah 53 is not about Jesus.

As to people writing their own prophecies...No, they quote the bible. They're simply trying to figure out the who, what, when, where, why's and how of the prophecy.

 

[Josheb]

John was on Patmos for 1 year?

I can see little thought was put into that and the prejudices precluded understanding. The sentence, "I'd place it about 65-66," simply means it was written sometime during the years 65 and/or 66, NOT that he was on the island for only a year.

Acts ends where Christ ends it.

Yes, and it he ended it without any mention of Peter or Paul's deaths, or Jerusalem having been destroyed and Israel overrun with war. That is evidence Christ ended Acts prior to the late 60s. Had Acts been written after those events it is extraordinary likely there would have been mention of all three events. How would the history of the early Church not include three of the most significant and world-changing events in its history if it was written afterward? The deaths of the other apostles dying during the NT era were recorded. How is it THE most prolific apostles were treated with silence if the books were written after they died? When prophesies are fulfilled in the NT it is noted. How then would the fulfillment of Jerusalem's destruction not be noted if the scriptures were written after those prophecies were fulfilled?

 

[Josheb]

The prophets and apostles of Christ write what He wants then to write. Though the Bible has much history, from the beginning it's the doctrine of God, not the history of the world. We know Paul and Peter were alive when Christ writes 2 Peter. And John was alive on Patmos when writing Revelation.

True. The works of the churches mentioned by name are past, and the Lord has not returned to earth with power and glory.

And we also know there have been and are many antichrists come into the world. The question is about the last great one before the Lord's return.

And still is until the Lord's return. The names, dates, and places of saints in tribulation and persecution change, but not the tribulation and persecution of saints. Until the Lord's return.

The problem is modern futurist teachers have not had a single prediction correct in nearly 200 years. They ALL have a 100% fail rate. When it comes to eschatology, every single one of them has proven to be a false teacher. It's not okay to follow their views until they prove themselves valid and veracious (and subject to some degree of accountability).

 

[Ghada]

This sounds like salvation by works.

It certainly is judgment by works.

1 Peter
{1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

 

[Ghada]

Perhaps, it is uncertain.

Only if someone needs him to be for the sake of their teaching.

John was not on an prison island apart from the ministry of Christ for 35 years. He was imprisoned by Domition in the 90's AD.

All this is just another play-game of intellectual speculation, that treats the Bible like a book of legends and myths and cypher codes.