H
harmonicat
Guest
The sequence of kingdoms I believe in Daniel 2, predates the one that claims Rome is the legs of iron. It goes back to the time of Josephus which is...
Babylon = Head of Gold
Mede's = Arms of silver
Persian' s = Thighs of brass
Greeks = Legs of iron.
The reformers were convinced that since Rome crucified Christ, persecuted 1st century Christians, destroyed Jerusalem and Herod's temple, and then persecuted Christians for defecting from the faith, they believed Rome would also emerge as the end-time beast of Daniel and Revelation. I believe the reformers were wrong about this and Daniel 2 and 7 as well.
We agree that in Daniel 2, Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon is the head of gold. After Babylon...
Daniel 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
Most people believe that Medo-Persia form the arms of silver or the 'inferior kingdom.'
The Medes and Persians
Secularist and many Protestants believe Cyrus the Persian conquered Babylon, but scriptures say that Darius the Mede invaded and conquered Babylon! I put my faith on Daniel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah's prophecies.
The reason for this is that there's very little 'secular history' on Darius but plenty on Cyrus. If they were to agree with the bible instead of secular history, that would blow a hole in the revived Roman empire theory! RRE - Something they've been teaching for centuries.
The Medes were superior warriors compared to the Persians, but the Persians were better engineers and nation builders than the Medes. They both had their own languages and 'kingdoms'. Cyrus married Darius' sister. (Some say his cousin, some say his daughter) I believe Cyrus married Darius' sister. (Ahasuerus was their father). The two kingdoms were confederate but did NOT merge into one AKA 'the Ram' until at least 6 years AFTER Darius (and the Medes) invaded and took Babylon at age 62...
Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."
Darius is the one who first went into battle because it was the 'custom of that day' for the 'elder' to be first in battle. He was older than his brother-in-law Cyrus.
The Median kingdom - the INFERIOR kingdom - occupied Babylon for only about 6 years (there are several scriptures that prove this) before the Persians under Cyrus had what I would call a 'family coup', where only about 100 people died to unify and control over the kingdom.
Darius rules!
Daniel 6:1 "It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;"
Daniel 9:1 "In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;"
Zec. 7"1 "And it came to pass in the fourth year of king Darius, that the word of the LORD came unto Zechariah in the fourth day of the ninth month, even in Chisleu;
Ezra 6:15 "And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king."
Then, after the coup, they combined their efforts under Cyrus which became the 'Ram.' Darius was then placed as a vassal over the northern province of the kingdom and Cyrus the southern part.
The inferior kingdom
The only thing said about the second kingdom is that it's inferior to Babylon. Was Medo-Persia the inferior kingdom? Absolutely not! The Median Empire was not only much smaller but was also short lived enduring only 6 years. Some of the 'big shot' interpreters claim this is a cultural or religious inferiority. The word 'inferior' proves otherwise.
The word INFERIOR...
The word inferior is the word "arah" which means earth, world, and ground.
It's only translated EARTH in Daniel 2, but it is coupled with the word BELOW which means 'TO MAKE LESS'. Gesenius says, "the ground, and adverb below" - inferior. The interlinear uses the word, 'earthward'.
In my view inferior means 'less land' and that rules out the Medo-Persian empire as the second empire since it was 3-4 times the land size of Babylon. It wasn't 'land inferior' to Babylon. The Median Empire was not only short-lived but was also much smaller making it the inferior kingdom.
In both Greek and Hebrew inferior means,
to make less,
inferior,
to fall short,
below
So where is Cyrus and the Persians?
Daniel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah's prophecies ascribe the conquest and destruction of Babylon to the Darius and the Medes, NOT Cyrus the Persian.
Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."
Isaiah 13:17
"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, i.e. (Babylon)
Jeremiah 51:11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.
After reading the above, people usually quote Daniel 8:19-21
Daniel 8:19-21
"And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be]. The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia."
Daniel 8:3 shows that the Ram emerged from two kingdoms. The smaller horn is the INFERIOR kingdom of the Medes which rose first, and the larger horn that rose afterwards, the kingdom of the Persians. Then the two eventually merged into ONE kingdom - the Ram.
The Legs of Iron
Since I understand the Medes as the 'arms of silver' and the Persians the 'thighs of bronze', the fourth kingdom symbolized by the 'legs of iron' CANNOT BE ROME but Greece.
Its end-time offspring, "the toes mingled with iron and clay" come from the Grecian Empire which is in accord with Daniel 8's little horn which is said to come from the realm of GRECIA, and Daniel 11:2. That Empire as well as the others depicted in the statue, didn't cover Rome or Europe as they were Mid-East Empires. Rome is excluded as the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2 and cannot be the origin of either the two or ten horned beast, or Daniel 7's 'fearful and dreadful' fourth beast.
The toes MINGLED with Iron and Clay.
The word MIXED OR MINGLED used to describe the toes mingled with iron and clay is the Aramaic word "arab." It means mixed and denotes an Arabian or Arabia. (Gesenius) This word is not associate with ROME, ITALY.
Daniel 2:43
"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."
Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar much more about the iron and clay than any of the other kingdoms because it depicts the end-time kingdom that the Lord returns to destroy. The word MIXED actually describes the people, the origin, and the geographical area from which the end-time anti-Christ would arise. The description of the iron and clay describes the Arab/Muslim world far better than Rome or the EU.
"And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken."
"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."
"And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise."
Daniel says the kingdom would, 'subdue all things, be divided and not cleave to one another, partly strong and partly broken, and mixed (arab/intermarried) with the seed of men. Islam has subdued nearly every religion in the Middle East.
That's not true of Rome or the EU but is certainly true of Arab Islamic tribes and clans scattered across the countries of the Middle East. Rome, Italy, and the EU, have strong alliances and are all a peaceful coalition of nations. They're more unified than the Arab World which isn't united at all! Arab/Muslim countries throughout the Mid-East and Northern Africa have always been divided.
Babylon = Head of Gold
Mede's = Arms of silver
Persian' s = Thighs of brass
Greeks = Legs of iron.
The reformers were convinced that since Rome crucified Christ, persecuted 1st century Christians, destroyed Jerusalem and Herod's temple, and then persecuted Christians for defecting from the faith, they believed Rome would also emerge as the end-time beast of Daniel and Revelation. I believe the reformers were wrong about this and Daniel 2 and 7 as well.
We agree that in Daniel 2, Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon is the head of gold. After Babylon...
Daniel 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
Most people believe that Medo-Persia form the arms of silver or the 'inferior kingdom.'
The Medes and Persians
Secularist and many Protestants believe Cyrus the Persian conquered Babylon, but scriptures say that Darius the Mede invaded and conquered Babylon! I put my faith on Daniel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah's prophecies.
The reason for this is that there's very little 'secular history' on Darius but plenty on Cyrus. If they were to agree with the bible instead of secular history, that would blow a hole in the revived Roman empire theory! RRE - Something they've been teaching for centuries.
The Medes were superior warriors compared to the Persians, but the Persians were better engineers and nation builders than the Medes. They both had their own languages and 'kingdoms'. Cyrus married Darius' sister. (Some say his cousin, some say his daughter) I believe Cyrus married Darius' sister. (Ahasuerus was their father). The two kingdoms were confederate but did NOT merge into one AKA 'the Ram' until at least 6 years AFTER Darius (and the Medes) invaded and took Babylon at age 62...
Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."
Darius is the one who first went into battle because it was the 'custom of that day' for the 'elder' to be first in battle. He was older than his brother-in-law Cyrus.
The Median kingdom - the INFERIOR kingdom - occupied Babylon for only about 6 years (there are several scriptures that prove this) before the Persians under Cyrus had what I would call a 'family coup', where only about 100 people died to unify and control over the kingdom.
Darius rules!
Daniel 6:1 "It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;"
Daniel 9:1 "In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;"
Zec. 7"1 "And it came to pass in the fourth year of king Darius, that the word of the LORD came unto Zechariah in the fourth day of the ninth month, even in Chisleu;
Ezra 6:15 "And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king."
Then, after the coup, they combined their efforts under Cyrus which became the 'Ram.' Darius was then placed as a vassal over the northern province of the kingdom and Cyrus the southern part.
The inferior kingdom
The only thing said about the second kingdom is that it's inferior to Babylon. Was Medo-Persia the inferior kingdom? Absolutely not! The Median Empire was not only much smaller but was also short lived enduring only 6 years. Some of the 'big shot' interpreters claim this is a cultural or religious inferiority. The word 'inferior' proves otherwise.
The word INFERIOR...
The word inferior is the word "arah" which means earth, world, and ground.
It's only translated EARTH in Daniel 2, but it is coupled with the word BELOW which means 'TO MAKE LESS'. Gesenius says, "the ground, and adverb below" - inferior. The interlinear uses the word, 'earthward'.
In my view inferior means 'less land' and that rules out the Medo-Persian empire as the second empire since it was 3-4 times the land size of Babylon. It wasn't 'land inferior' to Babylon. The Median Empire was not only short-lived but was also much smaller making it the inferior kingdom.
In both Greek and Hebrew inferior means,
to make less,
inferior,
to fall short,
below
So where is Cyrus and the Persians?
Daniel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah's prophecies ascribe the conquest and destruction of Babylon to the Darius and the Medes, NOT Cyrus the Persian.
Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."
Isaiah 13:17
"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, i.e. (Babylon)
Jeremiah 51:11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.
After reading the above, people usually quote Daniel 8:19-21
Daniel 8:19-21
"And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be]. The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia."
Daniel 8:3 shows that the Ram emerged from two kingdoms. The smaller horn is the INFERIOR kingdom of the Medes which rose first, and the larger horn that rose afterwards, the kingdom of the Persians. Then the two eventually merged into ONE kingdom - the Ram.
The Legs of Iron
Since I understand the Medes as the 'arms of silver' and the Persians the 'thighs of bronze', the fourth kingdom symbolized by the 'legs of iron' CANNOT BE ROME but Greece.
Its end-time offspring, "the toes mingled with iron and clay" come from the Grecian Empire which is in accord with Daniel 8's little horn which is said to come from the realm of GRECIA, and Daniel 11:2. That Empire as well as the others depicted in the statue, didn't cover Rome or Europe as they were Mid-East Empires. Rome is excluded as the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2 and cannot be the origin of either the two or ten horned beast, or Daniel 7's 'fearful and dreadful' fourth beast.
The toes MINGLED with Iron and Clay.
The word MIXED OR MINGLED used to describe the toes mingled with iron and clay is the Aramaic word "arab." It means mixed and denotes an Arabian or Arabia. (Gesenius) This word is not associate with ROME, ITALY.
Daniel 2:43
"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."
Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar much more about the iron and clay than any of the other kingdoms because it depicts the end-time kingdom that the Lord returns to destroy. The word MIXED actually describes the people, the origin, and the geographical area from which the end-time anti-Christ would arise. The description of the iron and clay describes the Arab/Muslim world far better than Rome or the EU.
"And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken."
"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."
"And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise."
Daniel says the kingdom would, 'subdue all things, be divided and not cleave to one another, partly strong and partly broken, and mixed (arab/intermarried) with the seed of men. Islam has subdued nearly every religion in the Middle East.
That's not true of Rome or the EU but is certainly true of Arab Islamic tribes and clans scattered across the countries of the Middle East. Rome, Italy, and the EU, have strong alliances and are all a peaceful coalition of nations. They're more unified than the Arab World which isn't united at all! Arab/Muslim countries throughout the Mid-East and Northern Africa have always been divided.
