Christ died for them not appointed to Wrath.

[brightfame52]

And Adam was good.

okay, He was upright and very good for Gods purpose

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 9:20-23 does not indicate two distinct people the way you imagine them to be distinct, and it does not preclude the vessels of mercy from previously being vessels of wrath. You read that into the text and that's not what the text actually states. Your entire argument is built on a false dichotomy, and you are not addressing that fact. You're simply repeating yourself. I tried to take the matter up with you one verse at a time and you bailed.

That last part is a fact.

I'm willing to take up the matter again and walk through some of the basic statements of scripture to show you where you're thinking went astray. I'll try to reason with you through the scriptures but, if so, I expect the back and forth to be simple, straightforward, and succinct. No more argumentum ad nauseam, red herrings, ad hominem, tu quoque or any other nonsense. Just answer the questions asked.

And if you do answer the questions asked when asked and keep things simple, I will provide parity.

I will start with the fact everything God made is explicitly stated to have been God and God, therefore, could not possible have made evil people. That statement (Gen. 1:31) radically determines everything else said in scripture about humanity, and if you think it through to its exegetical and logical necessities you can realize where you went off track with scripture.

Think about it. I gotta go and won't be back for several hours.

Rom 9:20-23 indicates Two groups of people, vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy,, two different destinies, Glory and destruction

 

[Josheb]

okay, He was upright and very good for Gods purpose

That is a utilitarian reading of scripture. By defining "goodness" only by utilitarian measures the door is opened to describing evil things as good things simply because they serve some divine purpose. That is hugely inconsistent with scripture and the whole-scripture way God defines goodness. This is why I brought up the matter of calling good evil and evil good. God abhors doing so. When God says what He made is good He must mean it is good in all possible way, including morally and spiritually good. This is also why I brought up Romans 2-6. Romans tells us two very critical truths: 1) sin did not exist when God made the heavens and the earth, and 2) everyone has sinned (except Jesus). In other words, sin entered the world when Adam disobeyed God, not beforehand. The effects of sin were not part of the way God made, or created, the heavens and the earth. Furthermore, God finishing His work of creating creation does not preclude Him from either 1) creating new things and 2) re-creating created things that had been corrupted.

So, I will ask the question again. Was everything God created good, or not?

 

[Josheb]

Rom 9:20-23 indicates Two groups of people, vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy,, two different destinies, Glory and destruction

Argumentum ad nauseam. I have already addressed that statement and asked you not to repeat yourself. The existence of two groups of people, one saved and one unsaved, is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the premise God made evil people; God created one group of evil people and one group of good people at the beginning when he created the heavens and the earth.

 

[brightfame52]

Argumentum ad nauseam. I have already addressed that statement and asked you not to repeat yourself. The existence of two groups of people, one saved and one unsaved, is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the premise God made evil people; God created one group of evil people and one group of good people at the beginning when he created the heavens and the earth.

Post 48 do you understand it?


Mod Hat:Brightfame---address the post you are responding to!!!!!

 

[Josheb]

Post 48 do you understand it?

Yep. Because I understand it I know it is incorrect. The question is do you understand Post 48 and how and why it is incorrect?

Because Post 48 is incorrect.

Happy to walk you through it one verse at a time..... beginning with the fact you selected individual verses and removed them from their surrounding text and ignored their context. No verse should EVER be treated in isolation. None. Ever.

For example, if the entire narrative of 1 Peter 2 is considered it will be observed Peter explicitly states, "for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God." Peter has reported a change occurred in his audience. Post 48's treatment of verse 8 ignores that content. It ignores the fact of post-creation change explicitly reported in scripture. This will end up creating a contradiction you will have to explain for your two-peoples position to have consistency. How can God make a people of mercy that are not His people? !!!

According to you, in the beginning, when God made the heavens and the earth God made two different type of people, one of wrath and another of mercy. According to Peter, there is a group of people who are not God's people. Some of them became God's people. Peter is talking about the distinction between Hebrews/Jews and Gentiles, people who are brought into God's covenant contrasted to those who are not. You have ignored that context and attributed to creation, not covenant.

Do you understand Post 48 and how and why it is wrong?

 

[brightfame52]

Yep. Because I understand it I know it is incorrect. The question is do you understand Post 48 and how and why it is incorrect?

Because Post 48 is incorrect.

Whats incorrect about it ? Exactly what do you understand me saying with scripture ?

 

[Josheb]

Whats incorrect about it ? Exactly what do you understand me saying with scripture ?

I JUST ANSWERED THAT QUESTION!!!

The treatment verse 8 received in Post 48 neglected all the surrounding text and the larger passage's context. An example of that is the neglect of verse 10. As a result of that neglect a contradiction is created = God made a good people destined only for mercy that were not His people!

But Josh, they are His people.
Not according to Peter. Peter explicitly stated people who were not God's people were made God's people. You cannot have it both ways. They cannot be both His people and not His people at the same time. That violates the Law of Non-contradiction. It is irrational. God is never irrational. God might be extra-rational, but never irrational.

It is not God's word that is irrational, it is Post 48 that is irrational.

The solution lies in adjust the time at which point God made two peoples. It was not at creation. It was when humanity fell into sin. Or, rather, it was within God's eternal foreknowledge that he chose some from among those that sin (which is everyone) to save. So when I say, "after humanity fell" I do not mean that time is relevant to God and God must wait for anything, or that God is dependent on His creation and His creatures in any way. You are correct to say this was decided in eternity. You are wrong to place the creating of two people at creation. God made one people. That people ALL fell into sin. The consequences of sin is death and wrath and there is no favoritism in that regard. God, demonstrating His eternal grace saved some from among those sinners and made them vessels of mercy instead of the vessels of wrath they had previously been. He took people who were not His people and made them His people.

Peter is writing in the context of the covenant relationship but since that covenant is Christological the example of Jew v Gentile can be applied to sinner v redeemed or dead in sin versus alive in Christ. No one is actually alive in Christ before Christ comes. That is why the author of Hebrews concluded his history lesson with the statement about the OT saints being perfected in the Church.

 

[brightfame52]

I JUST ANSWERED THAT QUESTION!!!

The treatment verse 8 received in Post 48 neglected all the surrounding text and the larger passage's context. An example of that is the neglect of verse 10. As a result of that neglect a contradiction is created = God made a good people destined only for mercy that were not His people!

But Josh, they are His people.
Not according to Peter. Peter explicitly stated people who were not God's people were made God's people. You cannot have it both ways. They cannot be both His people and not His people at the same time. That violates the Law of Non-contradiction. It is irrational. God is never irrational. God might be extra-rational, but never irrational.

It is not God's word that is irrational, it is Post 48 that is irrational.

The solution lies in adjust the time at which point God made two peoples. It was not at creation. It was when humanity fell into sin. Or, rather, it was within God's eternal foreknowledge that he chose some from among those that sin (which is everyone) to save. So when I say, "after humanity fell" I do not mean that time is relevant to God and God must wait for anything, or that God is dependent on His creation and His creatures in any way. You are correct to say this was decided in eternity. You are wrong to place the creating of two people at creation. God made one people. That people ALL fell into sin. The consequences of sin is death and wrath and there is no favoritism in that regard. God, demonstrating His eternal grace saved some from among those sinners and made them vessels of mercy instead of the vessels of wrath they had previously been. He took people who were not His people and made them His people.

Peter is writing in the context of the covenant relationship but since that covenant is Christological the example of Jew v Gentile can be applied to sinner v redeemed or dead in sin versus alive in Christ. No one is actually alive in Christ before Christ comes. That is why the author of Hebrews concluded his history lesson with the statement about the OT saints being perfected in the Church.

You going all over the place. Did you understand the post points. Rehearse them with me please

Edit Note. Mod Hat: Brightfame. Final time you are going to be given this same warning. @Josheb s post you are responding to is doing exactly what you are asking him to do here and expect hm to do again with your post. It was also done in Post #66. ADDRESS WHAT THE POSTER POSTED AND STOP DEFLECTING AND TROLLING. FINAL WARNING.

 

[Josheb]

You going all over the place. Did you understand the post points. Rehearse them with me please

Sure.

I know it is long but read it all anyway. Post 48 states.....

Some have been appointed to disobedience 1 Pet 2:8

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Disobedience to the Gospel of Christ. Peter writes of them who obey not the Gospel 1 Pet 4:17

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Paul also Rom 10:16

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

2 Thess 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

These are the ones Christ didn't die for, and God had appointed them to wrath and disobedience.2

That is the post in its entirety. If I take the post line by line....

Some have been appointed to disobedience 1 Pet 2:8

Who is it that is stumbling? Specifically, who has Peter identified as those appointed to disbelief? Post 48 never answers that question. It never asks the question so how could it possibly answer a question it never asks? Peter identifies that group of people in verse 7.

1 Peter 2:7
7This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for unbelievers,

The people who were appoint to disobedience are unbelievers. Which unbelievers? Every human being who has ever lived? NO! How do we know Peter is NOT referring to every human who has ever lived? Because in verse 6, 7, and 8 he quotes from Isaiah and David (see Isa. 28:16, Ps. 118:22, and Isa. 8:14-15, respectively). Now, because I do not want this post to be quite lengthy I will not cover those passages in detail, but they should be looked up, read and examined because Peter's audience knew those texts. The salient point of quoting those prophecies is that Peter is informing his readers those prophecies have come to fruition. The precious stone (Jesus) has come. The "stumbling block" (Jesus) had come. To whom where those prophecies spoken? The Jews living in Isaiah, that's who. in the stated context of those prophecies, who was it that did not believe? The Jews in the first century, that's who. In other words, Peter is NOT writing about every non-believer on the planet. Peter does not even know Mayans and Inuit even exist.

Peter is writing eschatologically, not soteriologically.

Post 48 did not render 1 Peter 2:8 correctly.

The long ago prophesied "choice stone had been revealed. The prophesied precious cornerstone had been revealed. The prophesied stumbling block had been revealed. When had it been revealed? Turn the page back one page and read chapter 1.

1 Peter 1:17-23
17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 22Since you have purified your souls in obedience to the truth for a sincere love of the brothers and sisters, fervently love one another from the heart, 23for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable, but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Peter was writing about events occurring in the last times, the last time in which he and his readers were living. It was in the last times that the precious stone that was a stumbling block to the JEWS had been revealed. In the context of Peter's epistle the disobedient ones are Jews, the Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah. That is why Peter then proceeds to write about the people who were no people. That is a reference to Hosea 2:23. Just as Isaiah and David's prophecies had come true (past-tense) so too was Hosea's prophecy coming true as Peter wrote his letter. He and Paul (and many of the other apostles) had left Jerusalem and taken the gospel to the Gentiles (the people who were nt originally God's people). Each time Peter and Paul entered a city they went first to the synagogue but the Jewish leaders in town after town rejected them, either leaving them to teach in the outer courtyard or in public venues. Both places were places where Gentiles received the gospel.

Some were appointed to disobedience, but in the context of Peter's epistle and what he specifies, those people were Jews who'd rejected the gospel and NOT people made at the beginning of creation.

Post 48 did not come close to rendering 1 Peter 2:8 correctly.

When did God appoint those Jews to disobedience? There are several passages that answer that question, but the best one is Isaiah 6.


Isaiah 6:8-11
8Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!” 9And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on listening, but do not understand; And keep on looking, but do not gain knowledge.’ 10“Make the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes blind, So that they will not see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed.” 11Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered, “Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant, Houses are without people And the land is utterly desolate..."

This passage is quoted in every single one of the gospels, the book of Acts and at least two of the epistles! That text explicitly states God would cause the rebellious Jews to be hard-hearted, deaf and blind AND the reason God would cause that to happen.... is so they would not turn away from their sin and be healed!!! Look up the places where this is quoted in the NT (Mt. 13:14; Mk. 4:12; Lk. 8:10; Jn. 12:39-40; Rom. 11:8 and you can find the other places on your own.). Make note of the fact that in every single one of those examples the reference is Jews and only Jews!
The ones appointed to disobedience in 11 Peter 2: are the Jews who rejected Jesus and no one else.

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Peter is quoting a prophecy from Isaiah 8. That is a prophecy spoken only to the Jews about the Jews. It's not spoken to anyone else. It was not spoken about anyone else. One of the most basic rules of biblical exegesis is identify the audience affiliations and you failed to do that correctly in Post 48.

Remember: Peter was the apostle sent to the Jews. The congregations he founded were mixed with Jews and Gentiles, but he ministered the gospel first to the Jews. His readers were Christians (see 1 Pet. 1:1-2) but he was heavily couched in the Tanakh as he wrote his second epistle. The entire epistle is an exhortation to believers to live rightly. In other words, he's writing to those already saved. He is not explaining how to become saved. He is writing to a people who were "a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light," the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham and the Hebrews freed from Egypt (see also Dt. 7 & 14). Those promises are fulfilled in the royal priesthood of Christians.

A great deal more could be said about the 1 Peter 2 text but the salient point is Post 48 does not come close to rendering 1 Peter 2:8 correctly. I will take up the matter of 1 Peter 4:17 in a separate post but it's late so I'm calling it a night and heading off to bed. I'll go through the last half of Post 48 in the morning. In the interim, get out your Bible and read the Isaiah, Psalm, gospels, and Romans texts I cited and verify for yourself what I just posted.

The assigning of people to disobedience was a function of prophetic judgement occurring post-creation, post fall and it applied solely to the Jews who had rejected Jesus.


Do not hate me because of this correction. Big hugs and I'll see you in the morning.

 

[brightfame52]

Some have been ordained to condemnation from of old Jude 1:4,13

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.2

 

[Arial]

Some have been ordained to condemnation from of old Jude 1:4,13

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.2

Does "before of old ordained to condemnation" mean "at creation"?

You keep bypassing your original assertion. That God at creation created some for condemnation and some for mercy. You keep avoiding the issues that if someone isn't condemned, why do they need mercy? You keep avoiding the issue that ALL are condemned because all are sinners. You keep avoiding the issue that the choosing God does is to save from condemnation by placing them in Christ. Not before they are placed in Christ, but WHEN they are placed in Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

Does "before of old ordained to condemnation" mean "at creation"?

Before of old ? I woud say so

 

[Arial]

Before of old ? I woud say so

Why would you say so? Does Scripture say so?

No. Scripture says that at creation God called all that he had made "good". When all was completed on the sixth day with the creation of man, he saw all he had made and declared it very good (Gen 1).

If something can be declared good or not good, there has to be a standard by which that is measured. An ultimate standard. Who is the ultimate standard by which good and bad is measured? God. And that standard comes from who God is. There is nothing subjecting or arbitrary about it. So when God says something is good, that means it is perfect, through and through, in all its being.

The change came by the decree and ordination of God, but it came through Adam, who was created perfect physically and morally. He was also created mortal (able to die) and corruptible (able to be corrupted). The only thing that would bring death to him and corruption was if he disobeyed God (not good) and gained the knowledge of evil along with the knowledge of good, and lost access to the tree of life.

Which he did, From that point on all men were sinners (not good) and all were condemned to die and face the wrath of God. God in his wisdom, love, compassion, and for his own glory, chose to save some of them from this condemnation. Those he did not choose to save remained condemned. Jesus, God the Son, came to purchase them with his blood. As Scripture says, God gave those elect sinners to Christ, by predestining them to come to him for salvation, then calling them, and justifying them. Placing them in him by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, giving them the faith they needed.

 

[Josheb]

Part 2:

Paul also Rom 10:16

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Let's take a look at the Romans 10 text with its surrounding verses so that the identity of the "they" can be discerned.

Romans 9:30-10:19
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who believes in him will not be disappointed." Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down), or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." But what does it say? "The word of God is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" - that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!" However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed Your report?" So, faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed, they have; "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, "I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation, by a nation without understanding will I anger you."

When we examine the larger text in which verse 16 exists, we find that Paul is writing specifically about Israel, not all humanity. Therefore, when Paul wrote, "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” he is saying

But the people of Israel have not all obeyed the gospel.

At the beginning of the passage and at the end of the passage Paul explicitly identifies the "they" as Israel, not all people God created at the beginning of creation. This is true if we examine the entire narrative, too. Paul begins his exposition in chapter 9, not chapter 10, and he continues on through chapter 11. It is a commentary that is three chapters long and Post 48 removes one verse from a narrative that is 90 verses in length. Post 48 selects one out of ninety verses and makes large, sweeping, overgeneralized assertions based on that one verse in neglect of the other 89. Post 48 is fundamentally bad exegesis. When all three chapters are considered as a whole it is observed Paul, again, bookends his commentary with an identification of who it is he is writing about.

Romans 9:3-4 (excerpted for the sake of space)
For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites....

Romans 11:25
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in....

So..... the entire exposition begins AND ends with Paul identifying the "they" as Israel, AND the specific passage within that three-chapter long narrative also explicitly identifies the "they" as Israel. Furthermore, Paul has also quoted from the prophets to inform his readers that relevant prophecies have already been fulfilled, and others are being fulfilled as he was writing that epistle. It is Israel that is the "they" in Romans 10:16. Paul reports they were hardened, much as Peter used Isaiah to say they were hardened in their heart and struck blind and deaf. Paul states the hardening will continue until the fulness of the Gentiles has come.

In other words, the passage is eschatological, not soteriological. Remember: Paul is writing to an audience that is already saved. He is not explaining to them how anyone gets saved, how they got saved, or what God was doing at creation. He is explaining to them what was going on in providential history right then and there.

Post 48 renders Romans 10:16 incorrectly.

 

[brightfame52]

Why would you say so? Does Scripture say so?

Because it says Before of old. If it would have just said of old, that's pretty old, but to add Before of old, thats timeless.

Jude 1:4

or there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Its also a perfect passive participle, it was written or ordained in times past once and for all and the effects are true into the present.
And another thing, the ordination of them took place before they were born anyway you look at it. So when they came out of their mothers womb, their condemnation was set, they had no choice in the matter.
So why would Jesus have died for them, knowing full well He as part of the Godhead, already predetermined their condemnation in hell
John Gill writes:

who were before of old ordained to this condemnation; or judgment; meaning either judicial blindness of heart, they were given up to, in embracing and spreading errors and heresies; so that these are not casual things, but fall under the ordination and decree of God, which does not make God the author of them, nor excuse the men that hold them; and they are ordained and ordered for many valuable ends; on the part of God, to show his power and wisdom; and on the part of truth, that it might be tried and appear the brighter, and to manifest his people and their graces: or else punishment is designed, even everlasting condemnation, to which some are preordained of God; for this act of preordination respects persons, and not mere actions and events; and is not a naked prescience, but a real decree, and which is sure, certain, and irrevocable; is God's act, and springs from his sovereignty, is agreeably to his justice and holiness; nor is it contrary to his goodness, and is for his glory: the date of this act is "of old"; or as the Syriac version renders it, , "from the beginning"; that is, from eternity; see 2 Thessalonians 2:13; for reprobation is of the same date with election; if the one is from eternity, the other must be so too, since there cannot be one without the other: if some were chosen before the foundation of the world, others must be left or passed by as early; and if some were appointed unto salvation from the beginning, others must be foreordained to condemnation from the beginning also; for these words cannot be understood of any prophecy of old, in which it was forewritten, or prophesied of these men, that they should be condemned for their ungodliness; not in Matthew 24:1, in which no such persons are described as here, nor any mention made of their punishment or condemnation; nor in 2 Peter 2:1; for then the apostle would never have said that they were "of old", a long while ago, before written, or prophesied of, since according to the common calculation, that epistle of Peter's, and this of Jude's, were written in the same year; nor in the prophecy of Enoch, Jde 1:14; for Enoch's prophecy was not written, as we know of; and therefore these men could not be said to be before written in it; besides, that prophecy is spoken of as something distinct from these persons being before written, to condemnation; and after all, was a prophecy referred to, the sense would be the same, since such a prophecy concerning them must be founded upon an antecedent ordination and appointment of God; the word here used does not intend their being forewritten in any book of the Scriptures, but in the book of God's eternal

 

[brightfame52]

Let's take a look at the Romans 10 text with its surrounding verses so that the identity of the "they" can be discerned.

I agree that Rom 10 there is about the jews, but still they were appointed to disobey. Peter wrote about the same jews in 1 Pet 2:8

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

It was Gods decree that those Jews disobey, they have been chosen for hell, appointed to wrath, so they did what God purpose to do, and they still accountable for disobeying the Gospel

 

[Josheb]

Part 3:

[Paul also]

2 Thess 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

These are the ones Christ didn't die for, and God had appointed them to wrath and disobedience.2

Let's take a look at the 2 Thessalonians 1 text as a whole.

2 Thessalonians 1:1-12
Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed. To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Here Paul has identified the "those who do not obey the gospel," specifically as "those who afflict you." Paul does not elaborate but we understand from the book of Acts and the early epistolary the early Church was persecuted first by the Jews and then, later, by Rome. Since the Thessalonian epistles were the first ones written it is reasonable to infer the one afflicting the Thessalonian Christians were Jews. Paul is recorded by Luke to have gone to Thessalonica in Acts 17.

Acts 17:1-13
Now when they had traveled through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ." And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, along with a large number of the God-fearing Greeks and a number of the leading women. But the Jews, becoming jealous and taking along some wicked men from the marketplace, formed a mob and set the city in an uproar; and attacking the house of Jason, they were seeking to bring them out to the people. When they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, "These men who have upset the world have come here also; and Jason has welcomed them, and they all act contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus." They stirred up the crowd and the city authorities who heard these things. And when they had received a pledge from Jason and the others, they released them. The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Therefore, many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men. But when the Jews of Thessalonica found out that the word of God had been proclaimed by Paul in Berea also, they came there as well, agitating and stirring up the crowds.

As I stated earlier in Post 70, it was Paul's practice to go first to the synagogues to preach the gospel to fellow Jews. That's what happened in Thessalonica. Some were persuaded, including many Greeks, but the Jews gathered some "wicked men" from the marketplace, formed a mob, and set the entire city in an uproar against the preaching of the gospel!!! Not only did the Jews in Thessalonica provoke the entire city, but they also extended their affliction of the early Christians in another city as well. They sent instigators to Berea and afflicted believers there.

There is nothing in 2 Thessalonians 1 that is even remotely mentions creation or what God was doing all the way back then before time began. Instead, Paul couches his report in what God will be doing in the future: paying retribution to those - the afflicting Jews - who disobeyed the gospel when it was preached in their city.


Post 48 does not render 2 Thes. 1:8 correctly. In the case of all three verses quoted in Post 48 the verses are proof-texted, removed from their surrounding text, made to say things they do not actually stated, and each verse is forced to be definitive of the rest of scripture. Proof-texting is always and everywhere wrong because it is inherently eisegetic, not exegetic.

Non-sectarian Christian alternative to Wikipedia:

Eisegesis

Exegesis


Look for these things in everything you read and hear because there are a LOT of bad exegetes in Christian leadership. I and many others here can recommend a few excellent books of exegesis if you like. Just ask.

Now....

I was asked to examine Post 48 and explain to you what is wrong with it...

Whats incorrect about it?

.....and I have done exactly that AND I did so without posting a single unkind word about you. I both encourage and exhort you to get out your Bible and read the passages in their entirety, look up the texts to which the passages themselves direct the reader (all the Old Testament prophecies cited in all three epistles), and the relevant New Testament correlates.

Providence is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the premise God made two different types of people at creation. What is in dispute is the (mis)use of the scriptures cited in this thread to justify the two-peoples position. What scripture teaches is that God made one group of people and they were good. They became not-good, sinful, by disobeying God and that condition became the case after creation was created. God, being omniscient foreknew of that eventuality but was not particularly concerned because He had already created creation with a plan in which some from among the dead would be chosen for life. And that is exactly what happened. ALL of the people destined for mercy were formerly objects of wrath simply because wrath is the compensation for sin. In His grace, God selected some from among those already dead in sin to save. When the New Testament verses you quoted spoke of destiny they were doing so specifically in the context of 1) prophecy fulfilled, 2) God's promise to the Jews the covenant relationship would be extended to the Gentiles, and 3) the fact Israel/Jews of the first century rejected their Messiah.

John 1:11-13
He came to his own, and those who were his own did not receive him. But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jesus came to Israel. He preached the gospel of the kingdom to the Jews. He came to his own people and the did not receive him. They conspired to kill him and would not settle for him being whipped and let go. The watched and mocked him as he was tortured and crucified AND THEN THEY PERSECUTED EVERYONE ASSOCIATED WITH HIM AND HIS MESSAGE! They disobeyed God. Their destiny was decided in eternity, but it was meted out in history. There are two different types of people but those saved by the blood of Christ are ALL selected from the same group: sinners.

 

[Josheb]

I agree that Rom 10 there is about the jews,

Then it is NOT about anyone else, and it was incorrect to over-generalize the verse to apply to all people and what happened prior to creation. Those are the presuppositions of your position. Those predicates are incorrect. Remove them and the entire case falls apart. There is no "but..." here. The verse was written specifically and explicitly about the Jews of the first century and it is a misuse of scripture to make it apply to anyone else. When that misuse happens multiple times, that is abuse. There is no justification for any abusive of the word of God, especially not any chronic abuse. The proper response is correction. self-correct your thinking, your doctrine, and your practice so that more of these types of ops do occur.

It was Gods decree that those Jews disobey..........

Yes, it was. As I stated it was a function of prophetic force. Yes, it was God's decree, but that decree happened in history, not beforehand. Part of the problem with your viewpoint is you've played fast and loose with time. Most of scripture is about what happened/happens after creation was created. Very little is explicitly stated about what God did at creation. Similarly, most of scripture is explicitly about people who already believe in God's existence (or some other god's or gods' existence). Very little in scripture is written about atheists and ALL of what is said about them is stated within the context of them being fools.

What this means is that it is incumbent on EVERY Christian not to over-generalize beyond the specifics of scripture without a scriptural reason for doing so. No one in this thread is going to dispute eternal ordinance. That has never been a point of dispute by anyone participating in this thread and on any occasion where you thought otherwise you were wrong. Most, if not all, of us (so far) are Calvinists. We subscribe to WCF 3.1.

"God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."​

1. God ordained everything from eternity.
2. God is not the author of sin.
3. What God ordained in eternity did not do violence to the human will.
4. What God ordained in eternity did not do violence to the contingency of secondary causes.

No one here has disputed God designing and setting up creation to accomplish what He purposed it to do. No one. The dispute has to do with the premise God made two peoples at creation. Genesis 1:31 reports He made one people and they were good . Genesis 3:6-7 and Romans 5 report ALL the good people God created became bad people. That means there's still only one group of people. They just happen to now all be bad . Did God make two people? Yes! but when He made two groups of people, He selected folks from the group of people that had already become bad. Did God ordain that in eternity? Yes, but that is not the same as saying God made two different types of people, or two different groups of people at creation. He made one group of people in the beginning. From that group of people, He made two.

And not a single vers quoted in Post 48 has anything to do with that.

 

[Josheb]

This is a rabbit trail to reject the obvious truth

The text of scripture states what the text of scripture states and what it states is it was the Jews who specifically cause the Thessalonians affliction. What it does not state ANYWHERE is anything about what happened at creation. That is the truth stated in the text of 2 Thessalonians 1. It is Post 48 that created a rabbit trail of untruth.