Christ died for them not appointed to Wrath.

[brightfame52]

All members must engage in discussions with humility, respect, and peace

Okay on that, but you can not demand me to engage with you, I don't even have to respond to you and follow that rule. And if I see what appears to be a rabbit trail from the point I'm making I generally will not respond. You have a tendency to get off my topic to discuss your topic.

 

[Arial]

The elect vessels of mercy. They shall fear God when they are regenerated by the Spirit. That's according to Mercy Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

That's a benefit of the Mercy of the Lord being on them from everlasting and then applied in time. They were never ever appointed to Wrath.

1. When applied. No one is saying otherwise. It is you who implies it in one breath and the next acknowledges it must be applied.
2.No one said they were appointed to wrath. The fact that they were not appointed to wrath does not mean they were never in a position that God's justice demanded his wrath. Sinners deserve his wrath. Some get justice. Some get mercy. They receive that mercy when God places them in Christ and counts his righteousness as theirs.

Since your post here and what I say here, are in agreement, are you still going to argue that I don't know what I am talking about and that you do? Or do you not agree with your own statement?

The first sentence "The elect vessels of mercy" is where you appear to confuse yourself. From previous posts, it appears that you are saying since they were vessels of mercy, they never were in need of the work of Christ being applied to them. Were never under God's wrath. But they were, just the same as all sinners are. They were vessels who would receive his mercy, not vessels who already had received his mercy before he placed them in Christ through faith.

 

[Arial]

Okay on that, but you can not demand me to engage with you, I don't even have to respond to you and follow that rule. And if I see what appears to be a rabbit trail from the point I'm making I generally will not respond. You have a tendency to get off my topic to discuss your topic.

If you read my whole post that you are responding to, I said you were under no obligation to respond to my posts. Why are you arguing about something taken out of its context like that? And add to it an off topic personal accusation that violates the very rule I quoted? So far I have not been off topic or rabbit trailed---but do you see how you have now instigated just such a thing. That stops right here.

 

[brightfame52]

Sinners deserve his wrath. Some get justice. Some get mercy

Who said otherwise? Just so happens the sinners that deserve wrath but get mercy are the vessels of mercy. The sinners that deserve Justice and get Justice are the vessels of wrath. Two different sets of wrath deserving sinners. The vessels of wrath were always appointed to Wrath but the vessels of mercy were always appointed to mercy.

 

[Arial]

Who said otherwise? Just so happens the sinners that deserve wrath but get mercy are the vessels of mercy. The sinners that deserve Justice and get Justice are the vessels of wrath. Two different sets of wrath deserving sinners. The vessels of wrath were always appointed to Wrath but the vessels of mercy were always appointed to mercy.

No one said any different than that either. So, what exactly do you think I am saying and @Josheb is saying, that disagrees with your position? To have that stated from your POV would be not only helpful, but crucial to the conversation.

 

[brightfame52]

No one said any different than that either. So, what exactly do you think I am saying and @Josheb is saying, that disagrees with your position? To have that stated from your POV would be not only helpful, but crucial to the conversation.

Do you want to discuss the scriptures I provided ?

 

[brightfame52]

No one said any different than that either.

Okay so just enjoy the fellowship of what Im saying. {edit}

 

[Josheb]

I mean from everlasting to everlasting as God's mercy for the vessels of mercy was from everlasting to everlasting. Ps 103:17

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children

Do you understand the words "eternal" and "everlasting" do not mean the same thing? Eternity has no beginning or end. It is infinite in all directions. Everlasting, in contrast, is that something that is ever lasting has a beginning, but it continues on in time without end. Everlasting is infinite in only one direction. The fact is God's mercy is eternal, but His mercy toward those that fear Him is everlasting. It has a beginning, an origin in a fixed point of time, and in continues on forever.

That is part of why I asked the questions, When, specifically, did God make them vessels of dishonor? Was it before they'd sinned, or afterwards?
and "When, specifically, did God make them vessels of mercy? Was it before they'd sinned, or afterwards?"

You think it happened when God created humans but there was no sin when God created humans. There was no need for wrath when God first made the good and sinless humans. There was no need for salvific mercy when God first made the good and sinless humans. Both needs instantly occurred the minute Adam and Eve disobeyed God. That was after creation, not before. The six days of creation had been completed, and God had taken a day of rest.

 

[Josheb]

Not the elect for whom Christ died and took away their sins...

I just showed you scripture that states the exact opposite of that statement. Even those building on the foundation of Christ will have their works tested. It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment (Heb. 9:27). We must all stand before the judgment seat of God so that we may receive the compensation for our deeds - the deeds done in the body of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10). Each one of us will give and account (Rom. 14:12). That "us" is the saints, not just the Christ-denier. God will not show favoritism when He repays the wrongdoer (Col. 3:25). The only difference will be that those who sowed to the flesh will receive destruction and those who sowed to the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Everyone stands before God.

 

[Josheb]

Yes I understand it probably more than you....

The posts prove otherwise.

 

[Josheb]

Okay so just enjoy the fellowship of what Im saying.

What you are saying is a perverse rendering of scripture.

Is that against the rules

Yes. No one should be expected to "enjoy" the fellowship when God's word is abused.

• You have God making two peoples.
• You have God making evil people.
• You have God making evil people and calling them good.
• You openly denied what is explicitly stated in Genesis 1:31.
• You've implicitly denied what is stated in Romans 5:12.
• You have repeatedly used scripture selectively and ignored what surrounding verses state and how that content bears on the selectively used verses.
• You've repeatedly posted contradictory statements.
• You've refused to consider the logical necessities of your own position.
• You've openly refused to practice what you preach and look at the verses and discuss them as stated.

You are creating division, not fellowship, and done so despite the grace extended by others and the opportunity to walk through the verses one by one to accurately understand its whole. You will be held accountable for every word of it.

 

[brightfame52]

Do you understand the words "eternal" and "everlasting" do not mean the same thing?

What does from everlasting to everlasting mean

 

[brightfame52]

I just showed you scripture that states the exact opposite of that statement. Even those building on the foundation of Christ will have their works tested. It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment (Heb. 9:27). We must all stand before the judgment seat of God so that we may receive the compensation for our deeds - the deeds done in the body of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10). Each one of us will give and account (Rom. 14:12). That "us" is the saints, not just the Christ-denier. God will not show favoritism when He repays the wrongdoer (Col. 3:25). The only difference will be that those who sowed to the flesh will receive destruction and those who sowed to the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Everyone stands before God.

The vessels of mercy will be at the Judgment but they won't be Judged for their sins against God, Christ already has been. All their sins have been taken out of the way Col 2:14

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

 

[brightfame52]

You have God making two peoples.

There are two manner of people Gen Gen 25:23

And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Out of the human race you have the vessels of wrath then the vessels of mercy. You have the goats and the sheep, the wheat and the tares. You have Two Israels Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

[brightfame52]

When, specifically, did God make them vessels of mercy? Was it before they'd sinned, or afterwards?"

When did God purpose Christ to be the redeemer of the elect, was it before they sinned or after. 1 Pet 1:19-20

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Answer that and you have your answer

 

[Arial]

1 Thess 5:9-10

. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

I believe this means that the ones appointed to wrath, Christ didnt die for them.

It would be helpful if the title were clearer. Such as Christ died for Those Who Were Not Appointed to Wrath.

It is true that Christ did not die for those who were appointed to wrath. He died for those who were appointed for Mercy. That is the "L" of TULIP.

Who are they appointed to wrath ? Romans 9 tells us,

Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Also, true.

The word to make poieō is a verb that has to do with to create.

Its the same word Jesus speaks Matt 19:4

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

And we know this refers back to creation Gen 5:1-2

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

And? How does giving the Greek definition of poieo as being to make= create have any bearing on the discussion?

So God made some men as vessels of dishonor. The word dishonor atimia means:

dishonour, ignominy, disgrace dishonour (4x), vile (1x), shame (1x), reproach (1x).

Ah, I see. Now you have gone sideways, and this is where the dispute comes in. First of all you have you have applied a scripture about vessels of honor and dishonor to something it does not apply to. Creation. What you have now asserted in your OP is that God created some already dishonorable by his hand, and some not created dishonorable. That does two things. It has a perfect holy God in whom there is no guile, creating some people as sinners, and others who also sin as not sinners.
It ignores original sin and total depravity and jumps to limited atonement without folding the limited atonement into original sin and total depravity. It ignores the fall and the result of the fall for all mankind. God did not create anyone as a dishonorable vessel. That would be a dishonorable God. One who possessed a quality of dishonor to make a dishonorable vessel from. He made(formed) the honorable vessel from the same lump (Adam). He made that vessel by pouring Christ into it.

So, though I agree that the vessels of mercy were not appointed to wrath, and those he left in dishonor, are appointed to wrath; and I agree that Jesus did not die for the vessels of wrath, but only for the vessels of mercy; I disagree whole heartedly, that God created anyone as a vessel of wrath. And no mercy was needed until Adam fell and all humanity after him. Until then, there was no need to take lumps from the one lump that deserved his wrath because of sin and appoint them as vessels of mercy.

 

[Arial]

Okay so just enjoy the fellowship of what Im saying. {edit}

No one said any different than that either. So, what exactly do you think I am saying and @Josheb is saying, that disagrees with your position? To have that stated from your POV would be not only helpful, but crucial to the conversation.

Do you want to discuss the scriptures I provided ?

No one said any different than that either. So, what exactly do you think I am saying and @Josheb is saying, that disagrees with your position? To have that stated from your POV would be not only helpful, but crucial to the conversation.

When you give a response to the inquiry of my post, since both of these responses by you are to the same post, which you voluntarily responded to, we can go deal with whatever scriptures you are talking about.

 

[Josheb]

What does from everlasting to everlasting mean

I have already answered that question.

The vessels of mercy will be at the Judgment but they won't be Judged for their sins against God, Christ already has been. All their sins have been taken out of the way Col 2:14

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

That is not a point in dispute. The specific point of abuse is you believe God made two distinct types of people, one inherently sinful and always and everywhere destined for wrath, and another group what have/will never experienced any kind of any wrath to any degree at any period of their lives but have, instead experienced only and always mercy. That is incorrect. That is THE point of dispute.

In your mind

No, the facts in evidence prove it.

There are two manner of people Gen Gen 25:23

Yes, but they developed after creation was created, not before. You've assumed God's foreknowledge was causally determinative prior to His creating creation and it is not. You've mistaken correlation with causation (along with several other errors in reasoning).

When did God purpose Christ to be the redeemer of the elect, was it before they sinned or after. 1 Pet 1:19-20

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Answer that and you have your answer

I have already answered that question, too, AND expounded on the matter at some length. You are either not reading the posts or you're trolling.

 

[Arial]

There are two manner of people Gen Gen 25:23

And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Out of the human race you have the vessels of wrath then the vessels of mercy. You have the goats and the sheep, the wheat and the tares. You have Two Israels Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

The rule of correct biblical hermeneutics is to find the meaning of a text before applying it to anything. Applyin a text withut finding the proper meaning results in things like what is presented above. (The fact that the KJV is the only translation that uses " two manner of people" aside). Most others translate it according to the full consel of God---"two nations", because that is what God is talking about here. Twins. Jacob and Esau. Jacob became the nation Israel and Esau became Edom. It is not talking about vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy and should not be applied as though it were. Especially if it is being done so in order to "support" an erroneous claim that God created evil people and righteous people. It is even more egregious to then claim that those he created as already honorable vessels still needed Christ to die for their sins. What sins would those be?

 

[Josheb]

The rule of correct biblical hermeneutics is to find the meaning of a text before applying it to anything. Applyin a text withut finding the proper meaning results in things like what is presented above. (The fact that the KJV is the only translation that uses " two manner of people" aside). Most others translate it according to the full consel of God---"two nations", because that is what God is talking about here. Twins. Jacob and Esau. Jacob became the nation Israel and Esau became Edom. It is not talking about vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy and should not be applied as though it were. Especially if it is being done so in order to "support" an erroneous claim that God created evil people and righteous people. It is even more egregious to then claim that those he created as already honorable vessels still needed Christ to die for their sins. What sins would those be?

Exactly!
For example, nothing in scripture can be interpreted in any way contrary to Genesis 1:31's statement God looked at all that He had made and it was very good. If that statement is true (and it is true) then God could not have made inherently evil people. No mention of any evil people anywhere else in the Bible can be made to say God made evil people at creation. That would contradict the precedent established, ironically, at the beginning.

False, God created two sets of people, one set for wrath and destruction for sin, the other set for mercy and Glory from sin.

According to Genesis 1:31 that is incorrect.

No, it is not.

Well, let's take a look at what the verse explicitly states so this disagreement can be resolved.

Genesis 1:31 Hebrew Transliteration
And saw God everything that He had made and indeed [it was] good very and there was morning day the sixth.

Genesis 1:31 NAS
And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Genesis 1:31 KJV
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


The verse explicitly states everything God made was good. Is that what the verse states, or not?

Okay, everything was very good, relevance?

That means no human God made was bad. God does not make bad stuff and call it good. Nor does he approve of those who so. No doctrine of scriptural anthropology can begin with God creating two different kinds of people, one good and one evil, because it contradicts scripture.

Next question: Did God make sin?

The wages of sin is death. That is explicitly stated in scripture.

That's why the elect are called vessels of Mercy, because they are born into this world sinful wretched in need of Mercy, Christ took care of their Justice and deserve punishment.

Put the rest of it together. They need mercy because without that mercy they are objects of wrath according to the verses I quoted in the previous post.

Did God make sin?

False because they are sinners! Christ died for their sins and God is propitiated for them.

False dichotomy. Being created good, becoming a sinner, a former object of wrath, an eventual object of mercy, and having Christ die as a propitiation are not mutually exclusive conditions. What need of propitiation does a good human have?

Did God make sin?

The elect are never under wrath, wrath is due to sin, the penalty of sin. But Christ satisfied that penalty by His Death for them. They never experience God's wrath for sin. They're vessels of mercy.

Genesis 1:31 explicitly states all that God made was good. God did not make sin. Sin entered the world through the disobedience of one man (Romans 5) and as a consequence of sin's entrance into the world death has come to all mankind. God did not make one group of people who were good by His making and another group of people who are bad by His making. All were made good. All became sinful, dead, and thereby objects of wrath. God saved some from His wrath and that is what makes the no longer objects of wrath.

When you speak of Jesus as our propitiation for sin you are implicitly acknowledging Jesus himself was once an object of God's wrath! God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God (2 Cor. 5:21). God was pleased to crush His Son and put him to grief (Isa. 53:10. Good people have no need for any propitiation. Scripture is bluntly clear when it states no one is good but God (Mk. 10:18). All that God made was good, but by the time God observed humanity in Noah's day every thought of every human was only evil all the time (Gen. 6:5). This continued to be the case for all humanity and the psalmist declared "All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one." No one is good but God. God made humanity good. ALL humanity became bad. God saved some, and those He saved he..... created anew.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born anew from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God."

Ephesians 2:4-10
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.


Those God saves become new creations.

At which point silence ensues. Crickets chirping. God made one group of good people at creation. ALL the good and sinless people God made became not-good and sinful because the disobedience of one man caused the entrance of sin into the world. We can't even get close to passages like...

Psalm 143:2
And do not enter into judgment with Your servant, For no person living is righteous in Your sight.

Isaiah 64:6-7
For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; and all of us wither like a leaf, and our wrongdoings, like the wind, take us away. There is no one who calls on Your name, who stirs himself to take hold of You; for You have hidden Your face from us and have surrendered us to the power of our wrongdoings.

Romans 3:9-12 ESV
For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

Romans 11:32
For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.

Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture has confined everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.


...because Genesis 1:31 and Romans 3:23 and 5:12 are not reconciled with Paul's discourse on people of wrath and mercy, and the question of God authoring sin is avoided. It goes unanswered.









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