Christ died for them not appointed to Wrath.

[brightfame52]

And Adam was good.

okay, He was upright and very good for Gods purpose

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 9:20-23 does not indicate two distinct people the way you imagine them to be distinct, and it does not preclude the vessels of mercy from previously being vessels of wrath. You read that into the text and that's not what the text actually states. Your entire argument is built on a false dichotomy, and you are not addressing that fact. You're simply repeating yourself. I tried to take the matter up with you one verse at a time and you bailed.

That last part is a fact.

I'm willing to take up the matter again and walk through some of the basic statements of scripture to show you where you're thinking went astray. I'll try to reason with you through the scriptures but, if so, I expect the back and forth to be simple, straightforward, and succinct. No more argumentum ad nauseam, red herrings, ad hominem, tu quoque or any other nonsense. Just answer the questions asked.

And if you do answer the questions asked when asked and keep things simple, I will provide parity.

I will start with the fact everything God made is explicitly stated to have been God and God, therefore, could not possible have made evil people. That statement (Gen. 1:31) radically determines everything else said in scripture about humanity, and if you think it through to its exegetical and logical necessities you can realize where you went off track with scripture.

Think about it. I gotta go and won't be back for several hours.

Rom 9:20-23 indicates Two groups of people, vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy,, two different destinies, Glory and destruction

 

[Josheb]

okay, He was upright and very good for Gods purpose

That is a utilitarian reading of scripture. By defining "goodness" only by utilitarian measures the door is opened to describing evil things as good things simply because they serve some divine purpose. That is hugely inconsistent with scripture and the whole-scripture way God defines goodness. This is why I brought up the matter of calling good evil and evil good. God abhors doing so. When God says what He made is good He must mean it is good in all possible way, including morally and spiritually good. This is also why I brought up Romans 2-6. Romans tells us two very critical truths: 1) sin did not exist when God made the heavens and the earth, and 2) everyone has sinned (except Jesus). In other words, sin entered the world when Adam disobeyed God, not beforehand. The effects of sin were not part of the way God made, or created, the heavens and the earth. Furthermore, God finishing His work of creating creation does not preclude Him from either 1) creating new things and 2) re-creating created things that had been corrupted.

So, I will ask the question again. Was everything God created good, or not?

 

[Josheb]

Rom 9:20-23 indicates Two groups of people, vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy,, two different destinies, Glory and destruction

Argumentum ad nauseam. I have already addressed that statement and asked you not to repeat yourself. The existence of two groups of people, one saved and one unsaved, is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the premise God made evil people; God created one group of evil people and one group of good people at the beginning when he created the heavens and the earth.

 

[brightfame52]

Argumentum ad nauseam. I have already addressed that statement and asked you not to repeat yourself. The existence of two groups of people, one saved and one unsaved, is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the premise God made evil people; God created one group of evil people and one group of good people at the beginning when he created the heavens and the earth.

Post 48 do you understand it?


Mod Hat:Brightfame---address the post you are responding to!!!!!

 

[Josheb]

Post 48 do you understand it?

Yep. Because I understand it I know it is incorrect. The question is do you understand Post 48 and how and why it is incorrect?

Because Post 48 is incorrect.

Happy to walk you through it one verse at a time..... beginning with the fact you selected individual verses and removed them from their surrounding text and ignored their context. No verse should EVER be treated in isolation. None. Ever.

For example, if the entire narrative of 1 Peter 2 is considered it will be observed Peter explicitly states, "for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God." Peter has reported a change occurred in his audience. Post 48's treatment of verse 8 ignores that content. It ignores the fact of post-creation change explicitly reported in scripture. This will end up creating a contradiction you will have to explain for your two-peoples position to have consistency. How can God make a people of mercy that are not His people? !!!

According to you, in the beginning, when God made the heavens and the earth God made two different type of people, one of wrath and another of mercy. According to Peter, there is a group of people who are not God's people. Some of them became God's people. Peter is talking about the distinction between Hebrews/Jews and Gentiles, people who are brought into God's covenant contrasted to those who are not. You have ignored that context and attributed to creation, not covenant.

Do you understand Post 48 and how and why it is wrong?

 

[brightfame52]

Yep. Because I understand it I know it is incorrect. The question is do you understand Post 48 and how and why it is incorrect?

Because Post 48 is incorrect.

Whats incorrect about it ? Exactly what do you understand me saying with scripture ?

 

[Josheb]

Whats incorrect about it ? Exactly what do you understand me saying with scripture ?

I JUST ANSWERED THAT QUESTION!!!

The treatment verse 8 received in Post 48 neglected all the surrounding text and the larger passage's context. An example of that is the neglect of verse 10. As a result of that neglect a contradiction is created = God made a good people destined only for mercy that were not His people!

But Josh, they are His people.
Not according to Peter. Peter explicitly stated people who were not God's people were made God's people. You cannot have it both ways. They cannot be both His people and not His people at the same time. That violates the Law of Non-contradiction. It is irrational. God is never irrational. God might be extra-rational, but never irrational.

It is not God's word that is irrational, it is Post 48 that is irrational.

The solution lies in adjust the time at which point God made two peoples. It was not at creation. It was when humanity fell into sin. Or, rather, it was within God's eternal foreknowledge that he chose some from among those that sin (which is everyone) to save. So when I say, "after humanity fell" I do not mean that time is relevant to God and God must wait for anything, or that God is dependent on His creation and His creatures in any way. You are correct to say this was decided in eternity. You are wrong to place the creating of two people at creation. God made one people. That people ALL fell into sin. The consequences of sin is death and wrath and there is no favoritism in that regard. God, demonstrating His eternal grace saved some from among those sinners and made them vessels of mercy instead of the vessels of wrath they had previously been. He took people who were not His people and made them His people.

Peter is writing in the context of the covenant relationship but since that covenant is Christological the example of Jew v Gentile can be applied to sinner v redeemed or dead in sin versus alive in Christ. No one is actually alive in Christ before Christ comes. That is why the author of Hebrews concluded his history lesson with the statement about the OT saints being perfected in the Church.

 

[brightfame52]

I JUST ANSWERED THAT QUESTION!!!

The treatment verse 8 received in Post 48 neglected all the surrounding text and the larger passage's context. An example of that is the neglect of verse 10. As a result of that neglect a contradiction is created = God made a good people destined only for mercy that were not His people!

But Josh, they are His people.
Not according to Peter. Peter explicitly stated people who were not God's people were made God's people. You cannot have it both ways. They cannot be both His people and not His people at the same time. That violates the Law of Non-contradiction. It is irrational. God is never irrational. God might be extra-rational, but never irrational.

It is not God's word that is irrational, it is Post 48 that is irrational.

The solution lies in adjust the time at which point God made two peoples. It was not at creation. It was when humanity fell into sin. Or, rather, it was within God's eternal foreknowledge that he chose some from among those that sin (which is everyone) to save. So when I say, "after humanity fell" I do not mean that time is relevant to God and God must wait for anything, or that God is dependent on His creation and His creatures in any way. You are correct to say this was decided in eternity. You are wrong to place the creating of two people at creation. God made one people. That people ALL fell into sin. The consequences of sin is death and wrath and there is no favoritism in that regard. God, demonstrating His eternal grace saved some from among those sinners and made them vessels of mercy instead of the vessels of wrath they had previously been. He took people who were not His people and made them His people.

Peter is writing in the context of the covenant relationship but since that covenant is Christological the example of Jew v Gentile can be applied to sinner v redeemed or dead in sin versus alive in Christ. No one is actually alive in Christ before Christ comes. That is why the author of Hebrews concluded his history lesson with the statement about the OT saints being perfected in the Church.

You going all over the place. Did you understand the post points. Rehearse them with me please

Edit Note. Mod Hat: Brightfame. Final time you are going to be given this same warning. @Josheb s post you are responding to is doing exactly what you are asking him to do here and expect hm to do again with your post. It was also done in Post #66. ADDRESS WHAT THE POSTER POSTED AND STOP DEFLECTING AND TROLLING. FINAL WARNING.

 

[Josheb]

You going all over the place. Did you understand the post points. Rehearse them with me please

Sure.

I know it is long but read it all anyway. Post 48 states.....

Some have been appointed to disobedience 1 Pet 2:8

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Disobedience to the Gospel of Christ. Peter writes of them who obey not the Gospel 1 Pet 4:17

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Paul also Rom 10:16

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

2 Thess 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

These are the ones Christ didn't die for, and God had appointed them to wrath and disobedience.2

That is the post in its entirety. If I take the post line by line....

Some have been appointed to disobedience 1 Pet 2:8

Who is it that is stumbling? Specifically, who has Peter identified as those appointed to disbelief? Post 48 never answers that question. It never asks the question so how could it possibly answer a question it never asks? Peter identifies that group of people in verse 7.

1 Peter 2:7
7This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for unbelievers,

The people who were appoint to disobedience are unbelievers. Which unbelievers? Every human being who has ever lived? NO! How do we know Peter is NOT referring to every human who has ever lived? Because in verse 6, 7, and 8 he quotes from Isaiah and David (see Isa. 28:16, Ps. 118:22, and Isa. 8:14-15, respectively). Now, because I do not want this post to be quite lengthy I will not cover those passages in detail, but they should be looked up, read and examined because Peter's audience knew those texts. The salient point of quoting those prophecies is that Peter is informing his readers those prophecies have come to fruition. The precious stone (Jesus) has come. The "stumbling block" (Jesus) had come. To whom where those prophecies spoken? The Jews living in Isaiah, that's who. in the stated context of those prophecies, who was it that did not believe? The Jews in the first century, that's who. In other words, Peter is NOT writing about every non-believer on the planet. Peter does not even know Mayans and Inuit even exist.

Peter is writing eschatologically, not soteriologically.

Post 48 did not render 1 Peter 2:8 correctly.

The long ago prophesied "choice stone had been revealed. The prophesied precious cornerstone had been revealed. The prophesied stumbling block had been revealed. When had it been revealed? Turn the page back one page and read chapter 1.

1 Peter 1:17-23
17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 22Since you have purified your souls in obedience to the truth for a sincere love of the brothers and sisters, fervently love one another from the heart, 23for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable, but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Peter was writing about events occurring in the last times, the last time in which he and his readers were living. It was in the last times that the precious stone that was a stumbling block to the JEWS had been revealed. In the context of Peter's epistle the disobedient ones are Jews, the Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah. That is why Peter then proceeds to write about the people who were no people. That is a reference to Hosea 2:23. Just as Isaiah and David's prophecies had come true (past-tense) so too was Hosea's prophecy coming true as Peter wrote his letter. He and Paul (and many of the other apostles) had left Jerusalem and taken the gospel to the Gentiles (the people who were nt originally God's people). Each time Peter and Paul entered a city they went first to the synagogue but the Jewish leaders in town after town rejected them, either leaving them to teach in the outer courtyard or in public venues. Both places were places where Gentiles received the gospel.

Some were appointed to disobedience, but in the context of Peter's epistle and what he specifies, those people were Jews who'd rejected the gospel and NOT people made at the beginning of creation.

Post 48 did not come close to rendering 1 Peter 2:8 correctly.

When did God appoint those Jews to disobedience? There are several passages that answer that question, but the best one is Isaiah 6.


Isaiah 6:8-11
8Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!” 9And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on listening, but do not understand; And keep on looking, but do not gain knowledge.’ 10“Make the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes blind, So that they will not see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed.” 11Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered, “Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant, Houses are without people And the land is utterly desolate..."

This passage is quoted in every single one of the gospels, the book of Acts and at least two of the epistles! That text explicitly states God would cause the rebellious Jews to be hard-hearted, deaf and blind AND the reason God would cause that to happen.... is so they would not turn away from their sin and be healed!!! Look up the places where this is quoted in the NT (Mt. 13:14; Mk. 4:12; Lk. 8:10; Jn. 12:39-40; Rom. 11:8 and you can find the other places on your own.). Make note of the fact that in every single one of those examples the reference is Jews and only Jews!
The ones appointed to disobedience in 11 Peter 2: are the Jews who rejected Jesus and no one else.

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Peter is quoting a prophecy from Isaiah 8. That is a prophecy spoken only to the Jews about the Jews. It's not spoken to anyone else. It was not spoken about anyone else. One of the most basic rules of biblical exegesis is identify the audience affiliations and you failed to do that correctly in Post 48.

Remember: Peter was the apostle sent to the Jews. The congregations he founded were mixed with Jews and Gentiles, but he ministered the gospel first to the Jews. His readers were Christians (see 1 Pet. 1:1-2) but he was heavily couched in the Tanakh as he wrote his second epistle. The entire epistle is an exhortation to believers to live rightly. In other words, he's writing to those already saved. He is not explaining how to become saved. He is writing to a people who were "a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light," the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham and the Hebrews freed from Egypt (see also Dt. 7 & 14). Those promises are fulfilled in the royal priesthood of Christians.

A great deal more could be said about the 1 Peter 2 text but the salient point is Post 48 does not come close to rendering 1 Peter 2:8 correctly. I will take up the matter of 1 Peter 4:17 in a separate post but it's late so I'm calling it a night and heading off to bed. I'll go through the last half of Post 48 in the morning. In the interim, get out your Bible and read the Isaiah, Psalm, gospels, and Romans texts I cited and verify for yourself what I just posted.

The assigning of people to disobedience was a function of prophetic judgement occurring post-creation, post fall and it applied solely to the Jews who had rejected Jesus.


Do not hate me because of this correction. Big hugs and I'll see you in the morning.