Are you Arminian, Calvinist, or other?

[Carbon]

Combine it with Jesus being the Propitiation for the World; especially of Believers. This is a two-fold Purchase; one for the World, and one for Believers...

We can be Calvinists, and still believe anyone can be Saved...

With respect brother. I still don't see how you can say this. It seems to suggest it was not a definite atonement.

And if Jesus died for the whole world, why wouldn't he pray for the whole world?

I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. John 17:9


Perhaps I am misunderstanding you?

 

[ReverendRV]

With respect brother. I still don't see how you can say this. It seems to suggest it was not a definite atonement.

And if Jesus died for the whole world, why wouldn't he pray for the whole world?

I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. John 17:9


Perhaps I am misunderstanding you?

I say that Christ's Purchase of the World wasn't an Attonement. There is no Attonement in the Edenic Covenant, though Atonement is in the Mosaic Covenant...

Leviticus 16...

 

[Eleanor]

Amen Sister...

Are you saying because he offers himself as the Savior of all men, that means he actually purchases all men?

 

[Carbon]

I say that Christ's Purchase of the World wasn't an Attonement.

What else could it have been? What else is taught about his death?

There is no Attonement in the Edenic Covenant, though Atonement is in the Mosaic Covenant...

Leviticus 16...

Are you talking about the sacrifices? If so, it sure was about the atonement.

 

[Carbon]

Are you saying because he offers himself as the Savior of all men, that means he actually purchases all men?

I'm not sure how you understand it but to me, it means Jews and Gentiles. Not just the Jews. = All men.

 

[ReverendRV]

Are you saying because he offers himself as the Savior of all men, that means he actually purchases all men?

I say he Purchased Headship for the World, not Salvation for the World. Adam had Federal Headship until he lost it to Satan; now Jesus has Headship. Headship isn't Salvation, it's just Mastery. By Keeping the Edenic Covenant, he Kept a Covenant that governed All Humanity, so Jesus governs All Humanity as the Second Adam. That Covenant had Universal Consequences; IE Universal Condemnation. Christ's Edenic Covenant has Universal Consequences too; All have access to it's Righteousness if they want access to it. Israel said to God that if they Kept the Mosaic Covenant of Works, this would be their Righteousness. Likewise, if Adam had Kept the Edenic Covenant of Works, there wouldn't have been a Fall; and it would have been everyone's Righteousness...

I'm just saying that the Edenic Covenant is not Limited, All have the opportunity to be blessed through Faith in Jesus as their risen Lord God and Savior...

 

[ReverendRV]

What else could it have been? What else is taught about his death?

Are you talking about the sacrifices? If so, it sure was about the atonement.

The Edenic Covenant didn't include an Atonement in it, so it doesn't Atone when it's Kept...

If Adam had Kept it, it wouldn't have Atoned for anyone. We All would be born Righteous. All would be Righteous Except Eve. She would have been Lost because she needed an Atonement...

 

[Carbon]

I say he Purchased Headship for the World,

Where would you find this teaching in scripture? Federheadship theology teaches He is the head of his body, the church (the elect) none other.

not Salvation for the World. Adam had Federal Headship until he lost it to Satan;

But Adam was the head of humankind. The devil does not have this headship, he is called their father (considering what Jesus said to the sinful Jews) of sinners

Hope you don't mind my input. I'm just really curious. And maybe like to give you a hard time now and then...

You are thought-provoking.

 

[ReverendRV]

Where would you find this teaching in scripture? Federheadship theology teaches He is the head of his body, the church (the elect) none other.

But Adam was the head of humankind. The devil does not have this headship, he is called their father (considering what Jesus said to the sinful Jews) of sinners

Hope you don't mind my input. I'm just really curious. And maybe like to give you a hard time now and then...

You are thought-provoking.

You don't find Federal Headship in Scripture, you find it in Theology...

I don't Mind...

 

[ReverendRV]

Where would you find this teaching in scripture? Federheadship theology teaches He is the head of his body, the church (the elect) none other.

But Adam was the head of humankind. The devil does not have this headship, he is called their father (considering what Jesus said to the sinful Jews) of sinners

Hope you don't mind my input. I'm just really curious. And maybe like to give you a hard time now and then...

You are thought-provoking.

Satan is/was their father; IE their Federal Head...

 

[Carbon]

You don't find Federal Headship in Scripture, you find it in Theology...

I don't Mind...

Col 1:18,
And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

Gal 3:28,
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 2:19,
And not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

These are found in scripture. Headship. Although it's named headship in theology.

 

[ReverendRV]

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[ReverendRV]

Col 1:18,
And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

Gal 3:28,
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 2:19,
And not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

These are found in scripture. Headship. Although it's named headship in theology.

Amen. They do not encompass all that FEDERAL Headship is though...

Adam is a Federal Head too...

Federal Headship is a Doctrine, not a Verse...

 

[Eleanor]

What else could it have been? What else is taught about his death?

Are you talking about the sacrifices? If so, it sure was about the atonement.

The sacrifices of the Mosaic Law were for a pattern/type of the coming sacrifice which would deal with the consequences of Adam's sin.

Those sacrifices were offered only for the people of God, they were not offered for all mankind.
They weren't about a purchase (buy back) from Satan, they were about a purchase (buy back) from the death penalty on sin.
And they didn't include a purchase (buy back) of any kind for anyone outside the people of God.
The sacrifices are the pattern and the rule which govern the meaning, purpose and application of the NT sacrifice.

Jesus did not say he came to purchase (buy back from eternal death) the world.
He said he came to give his life to purchase (buy back from eternal death) many.
Where is the Biblical authority for this doctrine of Christ's purchase (buy back from Satan) of those not bought back from eternal death?

 

[David1701]

As a "High Calvinist" I point to "Jolt Cola" in my defense.

Who, or what, is "Jolt Cola"?

 

[David1701]

Amen. They do not encompass all that FEDERAL Headship is though...

Adam is a Federal Head too...

Federal Headship is a Doctrine, not a Verse...

I know this is off-topic, but what IS that profile picture of yours?

 

[Carbon]

The sacrifices of the Mosaic Law were for a pattern/type of the coming sacrifice which would deal with the consequences of Adam's sin.

Those sacrifices were offered only for the people of God, they were not offered for all mankind.
And they didn't include a purchase of any kind of anyone outside the people of God.
They are the pattern and the rule which governed the NT sacrifice.

Jesus did not say he came to purchase the world.
He said he came to give his life to purchase many.

I agree with you.

Where is the Biblical authority for this doctrine of Christ's purchase of all mankind?

Nowhere to be found.

 

[David1701]

I see "duty faith" as not only unbiblical, but akin to decisional regeneration. It is a bit disingenuous as well since faith is a gift, so it remains self-contradictory.

I think these doctrines are borne out of feeling God's way isn't fair.

I've often wondered whether the "duty faith" teaching merely tells people that they ought to believe in Jesus (which would be fine), or if it tells people that they can (which would not).

 

[Carbon]

I know this is off-topic, but what IS that profile picture of yours?

The Heterodoxy of Leighton Flowers

Updated December 10, 2022 Leighton Flowers sharply departs in significant ways from the Protestant tradition. He teaches that: 1. The Fall weakened, but did not fundamentally wreck—not even in prin…

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Recognize the face?

 

[ReverendRV]

The sacrifices of the Mosaic Law were for a pattern/type of the coming sacrifice which would deal with the consequences of Adam's sin.

Those sacrifices were offered only for the people of God, they were not offered for all mankind.
And they didn't include a purchase of any kind of anyone outside the people of God.
They are the pattern and the rule which governed the NT sacrifice.

Jesus did not say he came to purchase the world.
He said he came to give his life to purchase many.
Where is the Biblical authority for this doctrine of Christ's purchase of all mankind?

Amen...