Are you Arminian, Calvinist, or other?

[Arial]

If you are referring to Hos 6:7, the covenant there is not with Adam but with Israel, which they broke there at the place called Adam by refusing to go into Canaan.

It is as though you never hear anything I say. I'm not going to say it again.

Were do we find that in the Noahic covenant?

Is that a rhetorical question?

 

[Eleanor]

It is as though you never hear anything I say. I'm not going to say it again.

Is that a rhetorical question?

Is the above a strawman?

Where is the relationship with God in the Noahic covenant?
Be relationship I mean a personal connection between the two mediated by the covenant.

God sends rain on the just and the unjust.
That is not what I mean by a personal connection.

 

[Arial]

Is the above a strawman?

Where is the relationship with God in the Noahic covenant?
Be relationship I mean a personal connection between the two mediated by the covenant.

God sends rain on the just and the unjust.
That is not what I mean by a personal connection.

Gen 9:8-17 tells us itself, which is why I asked if the question was rhetorical. How is that not a relationship of God with mankind in creation?

 

[Eleanor]

Gen 9:8-17 tells us itself, which is why I asked if the question was rhetorical. How is that not a relationship of God with mankind in creation?

Where is the personal connection, which is the meaning of relationship?

God sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Is that a personal connection of relationship with God?
Neither is the Noahic covenant.

Covenant does not necessarily mean personal relationship, nor does it necessarily exclude personal relationship.
It simply means personal obligation, on the part of one party only in a unilateral covenant, and on the part of both parties in a bilateral covenant.
The Noahic covenant is a unilateral covenant, as was the land promise to Abraham, the covenants with Phinehas and David, and the New Covenant (Heb 8:8-12).

 

[Arial]

Where is the personal connection, which is the meaning of relationship?

God with Noah
God with Noah's descendants (everyone)
God with creation---the place where He placed mankind to live.

I am baffled as to what you mean by relationship if you do not see that as a relationship between God and mankind.

 

[Eleanor]

God with Noah
God with Noah's descendants (everyone)
God with creation---the place where He placed mankind to live.

I am baffled as to what you mean by relationship if you do not see that as a relationship between God and mankind.

I'm hoping your New covenant personal relationship with God, which includes his indwelling Holy Spirit, is more than the Noahic covenant relationship with God.

 

[Arial]

I'm hoping your New covenant personal relationship with God, which includes his indwelling Holy Spirit, is more than the Noahic covenant relationship with God.

Only a person who does not understand what a covenant is would make such a remark, instead of addressing the issue.

 

[Eleanor]

Only a person who does not understand what a covenant is would make such a remark, instead of addressing the issue.

The nature of covenant is promise (Gal 3:16, 17, 18), or agreement (Dt 29-30).

 

[justbyfaith]

T - Total Depravity: I believe that mankind is entirely sinful apart from Christ; but that this does not prevent him from making a decision for Christ when he is pressed upon by the Holy Spirit to do so.

U - Unconditional Election: I believe that predestination is according to foreknowledge (Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 1:2).

L - Limited Atonement: I believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2); and that the atonement is appropriated in anyone's life by faith. Jesus said that whoever comes to Him He will in no wise cast out (John 6:37); so the argument that if I come to Christ, I may be rejected because I am not one of the elect is made null and void.

I- Irresistible Grace: Obviously, the Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51).

P - Perseverance of the Saints: If someone has a genuine faith then they will persevere, being sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30). If their faith is nominal, shallow, or lukewarm, then they can fall away (Luke 8:13). It is only the fourth type of ground in the parable of the sower that can lay hold of such promises as John 5:24 and John 10:27-30, in proper faith. Also, it is not OSAS, it is POTS. If someone goes forward at a church service or crusade and then lives like hell, it cannot be said that they were saved and cannot lose their salvation. Perseverance has to do with being a saint. 1 John 2:17 tells us that he who does the will of God abides for ever. That is eternal security for the one who abides. The clincher: those who abide in Him don't commit sin (1 John 3:6).

 

[Eleanor]

T - Total Depravity: I believe that mankind is entirely sinful apart from Christ; but that this does not prevent him from making a decision for Christ when he is pressed upon by the Holy Spirit to do so.

Scripture does not reveal the work of the Holy Spirit there as "pressed upon," but as enabled (Php 2:13).

U - Unconditional Election: I believe that predestination is according to foreknowledge (Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 1:2).

God's foreknowledge is simply of his own actions, of what he has decreed from before the foundations of the world; i.e., redemption of specific persons.

L - Limited Atonement: I believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2); and that the atonement is appropriated in anyone's life by faith. Jesus said that whoever comes to Him He will in no wise cast out (John 6:37); so the argument that if I come to Christ, I may be rejected because I am not one of the elect is made null and void.

Scripture reveals nothing to the contrary, but the issue of justice is raised because that means God requires payment twice for the same sin, payment by Jesus on the cross and a second payment by the sinner himslef in hell.

I- Irresistible Grace: Obviously, the Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51).

It's called "irresistable" because it is God working in the disposition (which governs the will) to give the person to prefer the things of God, and so the person willingly and freely chooses the things of God, without any external force or constraint to do so, and which is the meaning of Biblical "free will."
God does not violate free will in bringing us to him, God uses it to do so. The human will remains free throughout to choose what it prefers.

P - Perseverance of the Saints: If someone has a genuine faith then they will persevere, being sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30).

Correct, and being the only ones actually saved, they are the ones that are guaranteed perserverance (2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:14).

If their faith is nominal, shallow, or lukewarm, then they can fall away (Luke 8:13). It is only the fourth type of ground in the parable of the sower that can lay hold of such promises as John 5:24 and John 10:27-30, in proper faith. Also, it is not OSAS, it is POTS.

Yes, it is OSAS because those who are born again are guaranteed their inheritance.
All TULIP refers only to the born again, who are the only ones saved.

If someone goes forward at a church service or crusade and then lives like hell, it cannot be said that they were saved and cannot lose their salvation. Perseverance has to do with being a saint. 1 John 2:17 tells us that he who does the will of God abides for ever. That is eternal security for the one who abides. The clincher: those who abide in Him don't commit sin (1 John 3:6).

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, it is OSAS because those who are born again are guaranteed their inheritance.

I will only say to this that such a doctrine as OSAS has been misconstrued to the point of giving a false assurance to those who do not actually have salvation...teaching that you cannot lose your salvation even if one does not continue in His goodness (see Romans 11:20-22). POTS teaches true eternal security that is spoken of in 1 John 2:17 and 1 John 3:6...that the one who does the will of God sinneth not for ever.

 

[justbyfaith]

Scripture does not reveal the work of the Holy Spirit there as "pressed upon," but as enabled (Php 2:13).

"pressed upon" while it may be my words and not necessarily the words used by holy scripture, nevertheless is accurate terminology for what takes place when a person is drawn to Christ...he is "pressed upon" to receive Christ.

God's foreknowledge is simply of his own actions, of what he has decreed from before the foundations of the world; i.e., redemption of specific persons.

His foreknowledge is of the decisions that men will make according to the free will that has been given to them.

 

[Arial]

The human will remains free throughout to choose what it prefers.

I agree with your post and it is very well articulated. I just have one question for clarification to the above quote.

Are you saying that it is possible after/during this work of the Spirit for a person of their own free will to reject it anyway? I know that is the view I have encountered on other forums.

And for this I always counter that the term irresistible grace, though accurate can also be misleading, and that effectual grace is more precise as to the doctrine. The grace God gives that brings about the new birth is always effective to accomplish that for which it is sent. And that this new birth brings with it the effect that when we hear the gospel we believe it. Even if we didn't "the day before.". I put that in quotes because it is a figure of speech and not the way it happens or appears to happen for everyone.

 

[Eleanor]

I will only say to this that such a doctrine as OSAS has been misconstrued to the point of giving a false assurance to those who do not actually have salvation...teaching that you cannot lose your salvation even if one does not continue in His goodness (see Romans 11:20-22). POTS teaches true eternal security that is spoken of in 1 John 2:17 and 1 John 3:6...that the one who does the will of God sinneth not for ever.

But let's not blame the doctrine for those who abuse it.

Let's deal with the abusers.

 

[Eleanor]

"pressed upon" while it may be my words and not necessarily the words used by holy scripture, nevertheless is accurate terminology for what takes place when a person is drawn to Christ...he is "pressed upon" to receive Christ.

His foreknowledge is of the decisions that men will make according to the free will that has been given to them.

Nowhere in the NT is divine foreknowledge (prognosis) used of anything other than God's foreknowledge of his own decrees.

 

[Eleanor]

I agree with your post and it is very well articulated. I just have one question for clarification to the above quote.

Are you saying that it is possible after/during this work of the Spirit for a person of their own free will to reject it anyway? I know that is the view I have encountered on other forums.

I am saying that man does not freely choose what is contrary to his disposition, what he dislikes, what he disagrees with, what is not truth to him. He has a genuine distaste for it, therefore, I see it as not a possibility, which is the whole point of the change in disposition.

And for this I always counter that the term irresistible grace, though accurate can also be misleading, and that effectual grace is more precise as to the doctrine.
The grace God gives that brings about the new birth is always effective to accomplish that for which it is sent. And that this new birth brings with it the effect that when we hear the gospel we believe it. Even if we didn't "the day before.". I put that in quotes because it is a figure of speech and not the way it happens or appears to happen for everyone.

Agreed.

 

[justbyfaith]

But let's not blame the doctrine for those who abuse it.

Let's deal with the abusers.

Let's reformulate the doctrine (to being POTS) so that it cannot be abused.

 

[justbyfaith]

Nowhere in the NT is divine foreknowledge (prognosis) used of anything other than God's foreknowledge of his own decrees.

Do you have scripture to back up that statement?

 

[Arial]

Let's reformulate the doctrine (to being POTS) so that it cannot be abused.

What is POTS?

 

[ReverendRV]

What is POTS?

The Perseverance of the Saints...

POTS is the acronym. This is the 5th Point of Calvinism; the P in TULIP.....