Are you Arminian, Calvinist, or other?

[Carbon]

The Unconditional Elect do not have to hear the Gospel. Elect Infants dying in their Infancy are Saved...

Solomon's eight day old son went to Heaven...

Did you say the elect do not need to hear the gospel?

 

[Carbon]

Of course, they do.

 

[ReverendRV]

Did you say the elect do not need to hear the gospel?

The Elect who cannot hear the Gospel, yes. Elect Infants dying in their Infancy, etc...

The Bible says people from every Tongue and Tribe will be Saved. Even from the Aztecs?? This can only be because they sacrificed some Unconditionally Elect people...

Unconditional Election HAS to be true...

 

[ReverendRV]

Of course, they do.

You are right. Anyone who doesn't die in their Infancy needs the Gospel...

 

[ReverendRV]

Of course, they do.

You know me; I'm a 5-Point Calvinist. I just have some extra reasons to believe in Calvinism. Since somone from every Tribe and Nation go to Heaven, some of these people in Nations who never hear the Gospel, or lived in a time before the Gospel; must have been Unconditionally Elect...

That promise was made before the Aztecs existed. Thus, at least one Aztec has to be Unconditionally Elect; to fulfill the Promise...

The way I argue for a Point is different; but it's good. All Christians HAVE to believe in the Unconditional Election of some Aztecs. Now; how about the Incans?

Christians have no Free Will choice in the matter; unless they are Willing to embrace Cognitive Dissonance, to keep from believing Biblical Doctrine...

 

[ReverendRV]

Of course, they do.

One day when I tell you something that sounds fishy, you're just going to believe me anyway; because you know that sooner or later it will make sense

 

[makesends]

And those who receive the Gospel are Elect?

Define "receive" there. Those who are Regenerated by the Spirit of God, and Redeemed by the Son of God, are the Elect of the Father. Those, at least, do indeed receive the Gospel.

Whether others do or not, is a matter of definition.

 

[Deleted member 6]

You are right. Anyone who doesn't die in their Infancy needs the Gospel...

So, infants get a pass just because they die in infancy? You're making the abortionists' case for them.

 

[Selah7]

Define "receive" there. Those who are Regenerated by the Spirit of God, and Redeemed by the Son of God, are the Elect of the Father. Those, at least, do indeed receive the Gospel.

Whether others do or not, is a matter of definition.

accept

 

[ReverendRV]

So, infants get a pass just because they die in infancy? You're making the abortionists' case for them.

Nah, I'm just saying that according to the 2nd LBCF, Elect Infants dying in their Infancy are okay...

I'm just Confessing; that's all...

 

[makesends]

Nah, I'm just saying that according to the 2nd LBCF, Elect Infants dying in their Infancy are okay...

I'm just Confessing; that's all...

So you are not saying that all infants that die in their infancy are [necessarily] elect, right?

 

[ReverendRV]

So you are not saying that all infants that die in their infancy are [necessarily] elect, right?

Right. I cannot prove that...

But I can prove that Calvinists who produced the WCF, Confessed that Elect Infants dying in their Infancy go to Heaven...

And I can conclude that this explains how it can be true that some Aztecs will be Saved. ..

Unconditional Election HAS to be true; Aztecs couldn't have known the Gospel, yet some from every Tribe and Tongues shall be Saved...

 

[makesends]

Right. I cannot prove that...

But I can prove that Calvinists who produced the WCF, Confessed that Elect Infants dying in their Infancy go to Heaven...

And I can conclude that this explains how it can be true that some Aztecs will be Saved. ..

Unconditional Election HAS to be true; Aztecs couldn't know the Gospel...

I'm not sure I follow how that is Unconditional Election. I do understand Unconditional Election would come to bear, here, if any are saved, but that is true in any situation —that is, Unconditional Election does not demonstrate that anyone who dies in infancy goes to heaven, unless Elect.

Romans 1 says they are without excuse; I understand it to say that they knew God in some real way, but purposely suppressed knowledge of him. "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles."

My thinking is that God can (and always does) make a way to get the Gospel across to any and all elect. I don't think it is necessarily by human preaching, though it is by the Gospel. But even if it is necessarily by human preaching, God will make a way.

 

[ChristB4us]

Only if the heretic is repentant. Paul did not coddle heretics, he anathamatized them, which is worse than execution.

Not when they repent and they are allowed back in after that, it is not. Execution is where there is no chance of repenting and coming back to the assembly.

Is that about heresy, or personal offense?

In context to His words about the little ones that go astray, it should also involve heresy. If it was personal offense, would not the church by scripture, tell the offended person to forgive as Christ set the example?

Luke 23: 33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. 34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. 35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

1 Peter 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Granted, the reference below is about not going before the court of law but before the church, but in the last two verses below, when the offender refuses to repent, I have to wonder if the offended party is to suffer being defrauded even though the offender is excommunicated by the church anyway, because it was evident that he or she had defrauded the offended party, but if it is not that evident, then the offended party has to forgive and leave the judgment to God as He knows everything.

1 Thessalonians 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

1 Corinthians 6:1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Repentance being to change his mind and give up the heresy for the sake of the sheep.

Calvin using a court system to force repentance on a heretic or else death is not what Jesus taught.

This does not refer to church-wide offense, but to local offense.

Calvin arranged for Servitus to be arrested for heresy as he did warn him not to come for that reason. Hardly a local offense.

 

[David1701]

The Elect who cannot hear the Gospel, yes. Elect Infants dying in their Infancy, etc...

The Bible says people from every Tongue and Tribe will be Saved. Even from the Aztecs?? This can only be because they sacrificed some Unconditionally Elect people...

Unconditional Election HAS to be true...

Salvation is only through faith in Christ. God can give such faith even to infants who are incapable of understanding it intellectually.

Luke 1:13-15 (WEB)
13 But the angel said to him, “Don’t be afraid, Zacharias, because your request has been heard, and your wife, Elizabeth, will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.
14 You will have joy and gladness; and many will rejoice at his birth.
15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine nor strong drink. He will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

Luke 1:41-44 (WEB)
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
42 She called out with a loud voice, and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
43 Why am I so favoured, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came into my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy!

 

[Carbon]

One day when I tell you something that sounds fishy, you're just going to believe me anyway; because you know that sooner or later it will make sense

Or not.

 

[Carbon]

You know me; I'm a 5-Point Calvinist. I just have some extra reasons to believe in Calvinism. Since somone from every Tribe and Nation go to Heaven, some of these people in Nations who never hear the Gospel, or lived in a time before the Gospel; must have been Unconditionally Elect...

That promise was made before the Aztecs existed. Thus, at least one Aztec has to be Unconditionally Elect; to fulfill the Promise...

The way I argue for a Point is different; but it's good. All Christians HAVE to believe in the Unconditional Election of some Aztecs. Now; how about the Incans?

Christians have no Free Will choice in the matter; unless they are Willing to embrace Cognitive Dissonance, to keep from believing Biblical Doctrine...

There is no one who ever lived in a time where God did not exist. There was never anyone who lived anywhere on planet earth that God couldn’t get to them. Personally. I am quite convinced that if someone lived in a part of the world where they have no contact with the rest of the world God would make sure an elect would hear the gospel. After all, the gospel is what we must hear and believe. And God truly is Almighty.

As far as infants are concerned? I’d think God would protect the life of an infant until they hear the gospel, but then some things are of God’s secret council. Consider John the Baptist, he jumped in the womb.

Though I (we) may not know everything I’m quite confident God has it all under control.

 

[ReverendRV]

There is no one who ever lived in a time where God did not exist. There was never anyone who lived anywhere on planet earth that God couldn’t get to them. Personally. I am quite convinced that if someone lived in a part of the world where they have no contact with the rest of the world God would make sure an elect would hear the gospel. After all, the gospel is what we must hear and believe. And God truly is Almighty.

As far as infants are concerned? I’d think God would protect the life of an infant until they hear the gospel, but then some things are of God’s secret council. Consider John the Baptist, he jumped in the womb.

Though I (we) may not know everything I’m quite confident God has it all under control.

Perhaps my Gospel Tract on Helen Keller will make both of our points...

Helen Keller ~ by ReverendRV * May 12

Isaiah 35:5 KJV; Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

They say not to mix Religion and Politics, and that’s probably a good idea. It’s not always easy to do when you live in a Land where we have the freedom to Vote according to our Conscience. Due to our Constitutional Right separating the State from the Church, people on both sides have an interest in standing up for their views. Today it seems many more sides are standing up. ~ Helen Keller stood up for her Political views. She actively campaigned and wrote in support for the Working Class from 1909 to 1921. She exercised her Right to Vote and regularly voted for the Socialist Party Candidate for President. Though she was Liberal especially for her time, as a Theist she had Faith in God. Today Socialism is noted for its Atheism; but no matter what your Politics are, you can be a Christian. ~ Listen to Helen Keller…

Helen Keller was born in the late 19th Century. Before she was two years old she became Ill, and as a result lost her hearing and eyesight. Her parents eventually sought the aid of Anne Sullivan to help their daughter. It was very difficult but finally a young Helen realized that Anne was teaching her to read and write. Helen went on to become a voracious learner. ~ She told her friend Mr Brooks about the time she got Saved. She said even before she knew what language was, she knew about God. After she received the Gift of language, she said she already knew he was there but didn’t know his name. ~ This is a good example that shows us the difference between General Revelation and Special Revelation; and that we do know there is a God. The Bible says the invisible things of God are clearly seen by all and this leaves us without an excuse. Have you ever Stolen anything? What do you call someone who Steals? This is just one of the Ten Commandments; have you Lied? Then you’re without an excuse in the sight of God and are a Sinner. Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Be honest, if there is a God you would go to Hell. Helen Keller was honest and said in the deepest, darkest, mute recesses of her Being she believed in God…

You do not have to go to Hell for your Sins because God is your Judge. Enter a Guilty plea and he will find you innocent, but if you enter an Innocent plea then he will find you guilty; both you and God know you’re guilty. When you plea guilty, God is able to Pardon you for your Sins. The reason he is able to do this is because someone else is punished instead of you; Justice has to be served. Jesus Christ is God’s Unique Son who became a man and lived a Sinless life of perfection. He Willingly went to the Cross to receive God’s punishment for Sin. He shed his blood as an Atonement to appease the Wrath of God, He was buried three days but rose from the dead and before he went to Heaven, he was seen alive by over 500 people. Have Faith in Jesus as your Lord and Savior and you will not be put to shame, you will be forgiven! Find a Bible believing Church who’ll help you see and hear what you need to learn from God…

Matthew 11:5 NIV; The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor.

 

[Carbon]

Perhaps my Gospel Tract on Helen Keller will make both of our points...

Helen Keller ~ by ReverendRV * May 12

Isaiah 35:5 KJV; Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

They say not to mix Religion and Politics, and that’s probably a good idea. It’s not always easy to do when you live in a Land where we have the freedom to Vote according to our Conscience. Due to our Constitutional Right separating the State from the Church, people on both sides have an interest in standing up for their views. Today it seems many more sides are standing up. ~ Helen Keller stood up for her Political views. She actively campaigned and wrote in support for the Working Class from 1909 to 1921. She exercised her Right to Vote and regularly voted for the Socialist Party Candidate for President. Though she was Liberal especially for her time, as a Theist she had Faith in God. Today Socialism is noted for its Atheism; but no matter what your Politics are, you can be a Christian. ~ Listen to Helen Keller…

Helen Keller was born in the late 19th Century. Before she was two years old she became Ill, and as a result lost her hearing and eyesight. Her parents eventually sought the aid of Anne Sullivan to help their daughter. It was very difficult but finally a young Helen realized that Anne was teaching her to read and write. Helen went on to become a voracious learner. ~ She told her friend Mr Brooks about the time she got Saved. She said even before she knew what language was, she knew about God. After she received the Gift of language, she said she already knew he was there but didn’t know his name. ~ This is a good example that shows us the difference between General Revelation and Special Revelation; and that we do know there is a God. The Bible says the invisible things of God are clearly seen by all and this leaves us without an excuse. Have you ever Stolen anything? What do you call someone who Steals? This is just one of the Ten Commandments; have you Lied? Then you’re without an excuse in the sight of God and are a Sinner. Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Be honest, if there is a God you would go to Hell. Helen Keller was honest and said in the deepest, darkest, mute recesses of her Being she believed in God…

You do not have to go to Hell for your Sins because God is your Judge. Enter a Guilty plea and he will find you innocent, but if you enter an Innocent plea then he will find you guilty; both you and God know you’re guilty. When you plea guilty, God is able to Pardon you for your Sins. The reason he is able to do this is because someone else is punished instead of you; Justice has to be served. Jesus Christ is God’s Unique Son who became a man and lived a Sinless life of perfection. He Willingly went to the Cross to receive God’s punishment for Sin. He shed his blood as an Atonement to appease the Wrath of God, He was buried three days but rose from the dead and before he went to Heaven, he was seen alive by over 500 people. Have Faith in Jesus as your Lord and Savior and you will not be put to shame, you will be forgiven! Find a Bible believing Church who’ll help you see and hear what you need to learn from God…

Matthew 11:5 NIV; The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor.

Nope. Didn’t work.

 

[David1701]

You know me; I'm a 5-Point Calvinist. I just have some extra reasons to believe in Calvinism. Since somone from every Tribe and Nation go to Heaven, some of these people in Nations who never hear the Gospel, or lived in a time before the Gospel; must have been Unconditionally Elect...

Non sequitur...

There is only one way of salvation: by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (or faith in the Messiah to come, in the OT times).

When was this "time before the gospel"? It must have been before Gen. 3:15, because that's the first mention of the gospel.