Are you Arminian, Calvinist, or other?

[ReverendRV]

Let me cut this discussion short, by saying that the issue here is not about whether or not the wayside soil represents a reprobate heart (although it does). The issue is that you are assuming something that the verse does not state (or even imply), which is that these people would believe, if the devil did not take the word from their heart.

If the devil wants to stop someone from being saved, someone who has heard the gospel, one of the things he tries, is to take the word from that person's heart. This does not mean that the person would believe if he hadn't done that.

Thanks for agreeing as much as you have Brother. I agree to cut the discussion short. Be blessed...

 

[David1701]

Exactly. That is quite a spin being placed upon the word there.

Here are my thoughts on this text. I don't think the point Jesus is making is that Satan can literally prevent persons from being saved, but is illustrating via parable that through the word of God those intended to be saved will be. Those intended on being saved would be the good soil, and the others, Biblically speaking, could never have been saved.

Satan does take the word from others however he is able to do so, but, if we want to entertain the point further here, why is he not capable of doing this to all persons? The point of him doing these things is showing the futility of his actions (as if he were literally preventing a person from being saved). These are merely the allowed workings in those who will not ever be saved and shows his limitations.

It is not like "Oh, shucks, if only they would believe they would be saved" which in the end is a disingenuous theory that fails the 2 Timothy 2:15 test.

We know that there are none whom God intends to save who will not be saved. The other issue is when some attempt to make a parable walk on all fours, as they say, they come up with Biblical and theological contradictions as teachings.

It's also that the devil's motives and devices are being revealed.

 

[David1701]

Thanks for agreeing as much as you have Brother. I agree to cut the discussion short. Be blessed...

Ah, I didn't mean "cut the discussion short" in quite that way. I simply meant to avoid sidetracks that could unnecessarily lengthen it, without really contributing much useful. I like to get to the heart of a matter as much as possible and try to avoid distractions.

 

[ReverendRV]

Ah, I didn't mean "cut the discussion short" in quite that way. I simply meant to avoid sidetracks that could unnecessarily lengthen it, without really contributing much useful. I like to get to the heart of a matter as much as possible and try to avoid distractions.

No problem. I'm tired though...

 

[Arial]

Then we read how He is warning believers to be ready or else be cut off to be with the unbelievers and they will get certain measure of stripes for not being ready and still called servants as still His servants for when He sends that fire on the earth.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

So here we have a cutting and a taken away as having been saved but what? Missing out on the firstfruit of the resurrection for ceasing to abide in Him and thus not being ready to go.

This is a parable and should be read and interpreted as such. A parable makes a point by using familiar descriptors and each "thing" or "person" should not be assigned by us to being literal. The point is to get the point. This is a series of four parables all dealing with a question asked in verse 13 "Then one from the crowd said to Him,'Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me." To which Jesus replied, :Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of things he possesses." And He began the parables ending with the one you quoted. (Remember in verse 41 Peter ask if Jesus spoke the previous parables to them only or to all people)and this parable follows. So what Jesus is saying is that the principle of a servants readiness for his masters return applies especially to apostles and other church leaders. Any who begin to treat Christ's apparent delayed return as an opportunity to abuse their authority or to become self indulgent with God's resources will receive severe punishment.

To add to this "missing out on the first fruit of the resurrection for ceasing to abide in Him and thus not being ready to go seems to be adding speculations or beliefs concerning the end times into something where it does not belong or apply.

 

[ReverendRV]

Ah, I didn't mean "cut the discussion short" in quite that way. I simply meant to avoid sidetracks that could unnecessarily lengthen it, without really contributing much useful. I like to get to the heart of a matter as much as possible and try to avoid distractions.

I'm available to be online more, because I'm off work, due to a Surgery. Believe me, when I go back to work, I won't be here no where near as much...

 

[David1701]

No problem. I'm tired though...

That's fine; have a good rest.

 

[David1701]

I'm available to be online more, because I'm off work, due to a Surgery. Believe me, when I go back to work, I won't be here no where near as much...

I hope your recuperation goes well, brother.

 

[Deleted member 5]

If satan can carry the Gospel Seed away from the Trodden Soil where nothing grows, it proves they are Reprobate.

I don't believe all the lost are reprobate.

satan is unable to carry the Gospel away from the Rocky, Weedy and Good Soils...

Which proves the theory "if they would only believe" to be ultimately false. Thus, it is impossible for any person other than those given to Christ by the Father to be saved.

 

[Eleanor]

I see the OT sacrifices as figures OF Christ's sacrifice —the real thing. His sacrifice was not (in my estimation) patterned off of them. His was the reason for them. They were not the reason for his. They were patterned from what he did, which in God's decree, (to my mind, anyway), came 'first'.

Yes, they came first, but in God's economy for earth and the training of his people in the meaning of sin, its penalty and its remedy, they were given patterns, showing the nature and operation of sin, its penalty and its remedy, in preparation for the New Covenant realities dealing with these matters.

I am using "pattern" (tupos) in that sense, as it is used in Scripture; i.e., a pattern of (Heb 8:5), a shadow of (Col 2:16), a pre-figure of, a type of a coming reality.

The OT atoning bloody sacrifices were the pattern/shadow (form/image) of the coming reality of Christ's atoning bloody sacrifice,
just as the pattern of the tabernacle given on the mount (Ex 25:9, 40, Ac 7:44, Heb 8:5) was the shadow/image/pre-figure of the coming reality of the tabernacle they were to construct.

 

[makesends]

I disagree, Jesus did say lest they Believe and be Saved. For you to be right, the Trodden Soil would have to be Elect. For me to be right, the Trodden Soil would have to be Reprobate...

Only the Good Soil was Elect. Why does Satan steal the Gospel? Because it is the Power of God unto Salvation; none of the four Soils had the Power of God unto Salvation. If you believe the Regenerated Good Soil had the Power of God unto Salvation, Salvation would be Synergistic...

I like the characterization of Hebrews 6, concerning the Elect: 7 "Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God."

On the other hand, 1 Corinthians 3 says (and it is talking about the Elect, not just anyone whose works are burned), "15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

 

[ChristB4us]

Why? Because All Scripture is Good for the Doctrine produced from the Parable of the Sower. You use Other Verses to make a point too; right? It's Special Pleading to ask me why, without asking yourself...

Perhaps 2nd Timothy 3:16 is the foremost Fundamental Verse in the Bible. Let's use it as a Hermeneutic...

Hey, I'm going to take a break for a while...

At some point it has to be determine if it is rightly dividing the word of truth since scripture cannot go against scripture.

In John10th chapter, in verse 1 if a believer climbs up another way like seeking that baptism with the Holy Ghost by that sign of tongues rather than by believing in Jesus Christ , he is a robber and a thief and winds up following a stranger's voice as a result verse 5 ( tongues without interpretation which is just gibberish nonsense as if for private use )

Yet while His sheep follow His voice, He touched on those that went astray as His sheep because He said He "must" bring them ( even though left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event ) as they will be resurrected after the great tribulation to literally hear His voice as the King of kings and thus be made of the one fold & one shepherd in verse 16 for which the Lord will finish His work even in those left behind.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber...

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

So there is the firstfruits, the vessels unto honor, vessels of golf & silver that departed from iniquity and they that be Christ's at His coming, the vessels unto dishonor, vessels of wood & earth, that did not depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom had come BUT still in His House.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So those that do not depart from iniquity are still in His House but of a different inheritance and not of the first fold the partakers of the firstfruit of the resurrection. That is how the prodigal son is still son even though he gave up his first ineritance for wild living and can never get it back.

 

[Arial]

Yet if a saved believer, even a former believer departs from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes, he shall be received as that vessel unto honor in His House but if they do not look to Him for help to depart from iniquity by the time the Bridegroom comes, they will be left behind to die, but their spirts will be with the Lord in Heaven to await for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

This is another place where I personally see conflating two ideas in scripture and various passages that are distinct in what they are dealing with. It brings something from one place, the end times, and your particular interpretation of them which I disagree with, into a conversation in 2 Tim that is about how Christians should conduct themselves as children of God in Christ.

The discussion on iniquity and how it should not exist in HIs house is not about when the Bridegroom comes, or being left to die. Left from what? we are all going to die unless we are still alive at His second coming. I neither believe in a specific seven year tribulation nor a rapture taking believers out of the here before this so called seven year period, or in the middle of it. So I would in no way interpret the 2 Tim passage as you do.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

When Paul says "who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already" he is dealing with a specific heresy that was causing the faith of some to be shaken. They were denying the the future bodily resurrection, saying instead that the spiritual resurrection at the new birth was the sum total of resurrection. It denies a final reversal of Adam's sin and therefore denies the salvation of the whole person in an eternal new creation. Paul is exhorting Timothy to come against this false gospel.
"foundation of God stands": the reference is to God's elect in contrast to those who wander away (the false teachers)
"having the seal": an expression of ownership and security
"The Lord knows those who are His'": a quote from Numbers 16:5 the rebellion of Korah

The analogy of vessels for honor and some to dishonor in a great house is just that. An analogy. It is a call to purity and holiness. There are no vessels to dishonor in the Lord's house. There is no place for such in the holy, holy, holy.

 

[ChristB4us]

My bad. I had somehow sleepily assumed it said more. Calvin, as I remember, had repeatedly urged Servetus by letter, not to come to Geneva, for this very reason.

You did apparently miss that Calvin's role in the matter was as an expert witness as to the nature of blasphemy or heresy — not as prosecutor seeking Servetus' death.

I had seen that part but he did had him arrested and then tried to change the type of death as a more humane way for Servitus to die rather than trying to prevent said execution. So I am not sure if he can be cleared for arresting him in a positive way when he knew the matter was to save him from heresy but yet, if not, punishable by death.

 

[ChristB4us]

Everyone, unless God saves him, prefers his evil deeds, rather than come to the Light. It is by God's grace that we are saved, not by some, supposedly self-generated, better inclination.

Eph. 2:3 (Webster) Among whom also we all had our manner of life in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

There is "no better inclination" within us as our sin nature drives us away from the Holy God, and so it will take the Father to draw us ( some say that means "drag" ) unto the Son, to reveal His Son to us so we can believe in Him to be saved when it takes God the Father foreknowledge to know whom would prefer their evil deeds rather than come to the light to be reproved of them for Him to do what He does.

 

[ChristB4us]

I don't support Fullerism.

I had gathered that.

"Specially" is a word denoting degree; in other words, the salvation there referred to is all kinds of salvation, not only salvation from sin. Unbelievers get many salvations from disease, disasters, famines, droughts, wars, etc.; but, they do not get salvation from sin, death and hell.

In context to what we are talking about, and what the scripture is taking about is justification which is salvation thus having received the atonement.

What about it?

In context to what we are talking about, and what the scripture is taking about is justification which is salvation thus having received the atonement

Only if "atonement" is taken to mean "at-one-ment" (i.e. reconciliation), which is not its normal meaning.

In context to what we are talking about, and what the scripture is taking about is justification which is salvation thus having received the atonement

Sorry for the triple answer but I believe it is the same to all 3 comments.

 

[makesends]

I had seen that part but he did had him arrested and then tried to change the type of death as a more humane way for Servitus to die rather than trying to prevent said execution. So I am not sure if he can be cleared for arresting him in a positive way when he knew the matter was to save him from heresy but yet, if not, punishable by death.

They had laws to abide by. It was his duty to have him arrested.

Do you therefore doubt that he had warned Servetus not to come to Geneva?

 

[ChristB4us]

This is a parable and should be read and interpreted as such. A parable makes a point by using familiar descriptors and each "thing" or "person" should not be assigned by us to being literal. The point is to get the point. This is a series of four parables all dealing with a question asked in verse 13 "Then one from the crowd said to Him,'Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me." To which Jesus replied, :Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of things he possesses." And He began the parables ending with the one you quoted. (Remember in verse 41 Peter ask if Jesus spoke the previous parables to them only or to all people)and this parable follows. So what Jesus is saying is that the principle of a servants readiness for his masters return applies especially to apostles and other church leaders. Any who begin to treat Christ's apparent delayed return as an opportunity to abuse their authority or to become self indulgent with God's resources will receive severe punishment.

To add to this "missing out on the first fruit of the resurrection for ceasing to abide in Him and thus not being ready to go seems to be adding speculations or beliefs concerning the end times into something where it does not belong or apply.

I believe His answer to the person asking Him to divide the inheritance among him & his brother was finished in verse 14 as He said this unto him, from which He expounded in verse 15 in telling this to His disciples & the other people that were there.

Then it was written that He specifically said unto His disciples in verse 22 about not worrying about life as the Father will take care of them and to have their hearts on the treasure above rather than on the earth. He stresses this readiness in verses 34-37 in being ready to leave all that is behind to attend the wedding reception of the Bridegroom, in case you missed that point.

So His warning in verse 40 was why Peter wondered in verse 41 if it was to His disciples or for everyone that was there.

This was to all believers since the believers that were not ready are cut off to have their portions with the unbelievers and the stripes given to them in verses 47-48 was for the knowledge they had for not being ready. All this with the added threat of Him sending fire on the earth that the believers were cut off from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven to be with the unbelievers for when that fire comes on the earth.

Luke 17:26-37 has Jesus referencing Noah's ark to escape the global flood & leaving Sodom & Gomorrah to escae that destruction and so reminded believers about Lot's wife in verse 32 in not going back to get something out of their homes to take with them when He comes in verse 31. Hardly a parable there.

So I do not believe Luke 12:40-49 is a parable when it is a warning for believers that are not ready nor willing to go when the Bridegroom comes.

 

[makesends]

Let me cut this discussion short, by saying that the issue here is not about whether or not the wayside soil represents a reprobate heart (although it does). The issue is that you are assuming something that the verse does not state (or even imply), which is that these people would believe, if the devil did not take the word from their heart.

If the devil wants to stop someone from being saved, someone who has heard the gospel, one of the things he tries, is to take the word from that person's heart. This does not mean that the person would believe if he hadn't done that.

It is, to me, a curious ability the human has, to suppose something to have been possible that does not actually come to pass. When God himself sets before us a choice, to obey or not to obey, our choice is obedience or disobedience. That does not imply that they were both possible, but only that we would choose one. When God says, if you do this, blessing; but if you do the other, destruction, that does not mean that he did not even intend the thing that actually comes to pass.

In fact, it even shows his intention of bringing Ninevah to ruin, but went to great lengths to see to it that his decree that they would repent would actually come to pass. It says he 'changed his mind', in some versions, as I remember. Is there any implication that he did not know what would happen? No! The statement was valid that he would indeed destroy them if they did not repent. But they did. He was indeed angry and thus the intention to destroy them. But we shouldn't conflate the two "intentions". One is for the Ninevites, and was no lie. The other is for us to see in retrospect, that, as Jonah said, "you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity."

I can't imagine the frustration and rage of the Devil, knowing that every thought and deed of his in opposition to God, only furthers every intention God had decreed.

 

[ChristB4us]

I don't believe all the lost are reprobate.

Which proves the theory "if they would only believe" to be ultimately false. Thus, it is impossible for any person other than those given to Christ by the Father to be saved.

I believe the reprobate part is about failing to run that race as abiding in Him as His disciple by His grace & By His help.

2 Peter 3rd Chapter has Peter warning about the latter days as mockers will walk after their own lusts and how they ignore how the world was covered with water per that biblical global flood and how the same world is heading for a fiery judgment upon the earth for why he is exhorting believers not to give in to the mocking but to endure to the end, abiding in Him as His disciple as Paul would exhort by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily as the apostle John would exhort in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son thus agreeing with Peter by enduring to the end to be saved from what is coming on the earth.