Annihilationism is taught in the bible

[Johan]

It seems that Scripture does not present us as sinners because we sin, but rather that we sin because we are sinners.

Infants are born with an inherited sinful nature. St Peter doesn't give their sinful nature a pass at the pearly gate.

Rattelsnakes are rattlesnakes from birth. From the day they are born in my backyard, they are enemies of my children.
And as with St. Peter, they don't get a pass from me just because they are babies.

That is why God had the infants and children of his enemies killed in 1 Sa 15:3, because they would grow up to also be his enemies.
They would not become his enemies because they killed his people, they would kill his people because they were his enemies.

We are born with a sinful nature. We do not become God's enemies (Ro 5:10) by sinning, we sin because we are God's enemies, we are by nature (with which we are born) objects of his wrath (Eh 2:3).

For me the theological issue is the sinfulness of children before the age of moral responsibility. Calvinism has emphasized the total depravity of mankind, in all areas, from birth to death.

I am more drawn to the concept of informed human volition. This means that until a child knows he/she is breaking God's laws, they are not!

Sin involves open-eyed rebellion! We are sinners in Adam/Eve (cf. Rom. 5:12-21) and also we choose to sin. Both are true!

We may agree to disagree.
I don't know of one believer who doesn't struggle with sinful propensities/inclinations in both word-thought and deed.

J.

 

[Johan]

St Peter doesn't give their sinful nature a pass at the pearly gate.

St. Peter?

 

[Eleanor]

St. Peter?

Common American portrayal (like Santa Claus) of admittance to heaven through pearly gates at which St. Peter is in charge of gate keeping and admittance based on the life one has lived.

 

[Eleanor]

For me the theological issue is the sinfulness of children before the age of moral responsibility. Calvinism has emphasized the total depravity of mankind, in all areas, from birth to death.
I am more drawn to the concept of informed human volition. This means that until a child knows he/she is breaking God's laws, they are not!
Sin involves open-eyed rebellion! We are sinners in Adam/Eve (cf. Rom. 5:12-21) and also we choose to sin. Both are true!
We may agree to disagree.
I don't know of one believer who doesn't struggle with sinful propensities/inclinations in both word-thought and deed.
J.

Indeed. . .and I look forward to seeing you at the "pearly gates."

 

[Johan]

Indeed. . .and I look forward to seeing you at the "pearly gates."

Buona giornata, sorella.
J.

 

[Johan]

Common American portrayal (like Santa Claus) of admittance to heaven through pearly gates at which St. Peter is in charge of gate keeping and admittance based on the life one has lived.

Yeah?
I thought Abraham was sitting at the "pearly gates" A Pardes.
Sure glad I ain't need the permission of both.

Shalom Sorella.
J.

 

[Hobie]

Matthew 13:34
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.

Mark 4:34
He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.

True, but then He explained it. We are never left without a understanding, and even the harder prophetic text are being unveiled as we see the event unfold right before our eyes.

 

[Hobie]

As for what the Bible says will happen to the Wicked...

Job 21:30 King James Version (KJV)
"30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath."

Psalm 37:10 King James Version (KJV)
"10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Psalm 37:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalm 37:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 37:38 King James Version (KJV)
"38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 73:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
"17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction."

Psalm 92:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Psalm 104:35 King James Version (KJV)
"35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord."

Psalm 145:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."

Proverbs 2:22 King James Version (KJV)
"22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."

Nahum 1:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Malachi 4:1King James Version (KJV)
"4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
"8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

2 Peter 2:6 King James Version (KJV)
"6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

2 Peter 2:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Peter 3:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

2 Peter 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "

Revelation 20:9 King James Version (KJV)
"9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)
"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Sodom and Gommorah are clear indicators of what happens to the wicked..

Genesis 19:15
And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

and you see the same in when Satan meets Gods judgement?

Ezekiel 28:11-19

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[Johan]

As for what the Bible says will happen to the Wicked...

Job 21:30 King James Version (KJV)
"30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath."

Psalm 37:10 King James Version (KJV)
"10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Psalm 37:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalm 37:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 37:38 King James Version (KJV)
"38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 73:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
"17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction."

Psalm 92:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Psalm 104:35 King James Version (KJV)
"35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord."

Psalm 145:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."

Proverbs 2:22 King James Version (KJV)
"22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."

Nahum 1:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Malachi 4:1King James Version (KJV)
"4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
"8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

2 Peter 2:6 King James Version (KJV)
"6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

2 Peter 2:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Peter 3:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

2 Peter 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "

Revelation 20:9 King James Version (KJV)
"9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)
"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Sodom and Gommorah are clear indicators of what happens to the wicked..

Genesis 19:15
And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

and you see the same in when Satan meets Gods judgement?

Ezekiel 28:11-19

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Guns blazing?

Eze_18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

[Red Baker]

Nope, I didn't the Bible is clear that humans die FOR THEIR OWN SINS, and not the sins or their ancestors. I inherited NOTHING from Adam except the SAME HUMAN NATURE that he was created with.

Part one.....

Romans 5:12~"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Bob. the general object of the Apostle in this place it is not at all difficult to perceive. He had treated largely of the doctrine of justification by faith, "as a system" God ordained that his elect should live under to come to the knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus Christ, His Son. It evinced its necessity, shown its accordance with the Old Testament Scriptures, and unfolded some of the privileges of a justified state; and now he illustrates and displays the Gospel salvation, by contrasting it with the misery and ruin introduced by the fall, and manifesting, in the plan of mercy, a super abounding of grace over transgression, and thus, as has been already remarked above in the scriptures (3:-5:11 ) exhibits the foundation both of condemnation and of justification. In the preceding verse, Paul had stated that he himself, and those to whom he wrote, had been brought into a state of reconciliation with God. Reconciliation, implies two things, ~ first, that the parties referred to had been in a state of enmity and separation; and, secondly, that this hostility has ceased, and their discord been amicably terminated. Occasion is here given to the development and illustration of both these points, ~ first, the ground of the hostility and its effects, with which the Apostle commences in the verse before us; and next, the manner, with its consequences, in which this hostility has been terminated. This last he unfolds in the 15th and following verses, to the end of the 18th verse, and then in the 19th sums up the whole discussion which properly follows from the declaration in the 11th verse of the reconciliation.

Wherefore~ This introduces the conclusion which the Apostle draws in the 18th verse, but which is for a few moments interrupted by the explanatory parenthesis interposed from verse 13th to 17th inclusive. It connects with what goes before from the beginning of the 10th verse, especially with the one preceding, in which it is declared that through our Lord Jesus Christ believers have now received the reconciliation. It also connects with what follows, as an inference drawn from what is still to be mentioned, of which we have several examples in the apostolic writings. Wherefore, or for this reason, namely, that as by one man sin entered, so by one Man came righteousness. As introduces a comparison or contrast, of which, however, only one branch is here stated, as the Apostle is immediately led off into the explanatory parenthesis already noticed, which terminates with the 17th verse. In the 18th verse he reverts to the comparison, not directly, however, but with reference to the intermediate verses and on account of the interruption, not only states it in substance, but repeats it in both its parts.

"By one man sin entered into the world"~The Apostle Paul is telling us not merely that sin commenced by one, but that it came upon all the world from one. This is the only point of view in which the sin of Adam causing death can be contrasted with the righteousness of Christ giving life

"Death by sin"~ If death came through sin, then all who die are sinners. This proves, contrary to your view, that infants are sinners in Adam. Death is the wages of sin. It is the dark badge of man’s alienation from God, the standing evidence that he is by nature separated from the Fountain of Life, and allied to corruption. If infants did not participate in the guilt of Adam’s sin, they would not experience death, disease, ormisery, until they become themselves actual transgressors. ‘Who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?’ Job 4:7......

And so, that is, consequently, or in this manner, and not, as you and others interprets it.

in like manner~ This shows the consequence of what is said in the former clauses, namely, that death comes upon all because all have sinned, being participators in the one man’s offense. Death passed, literally passed through; that is, passed through from father to son. All men ~ that is, all of the human race, and not all merely who actually sin. As as a matter of fact, we see that death does pass upon all without exception.

"For that"~ or inasmuch as.... and this interpretation most conclusively supports the doctrine of imputed sin. The meaning is, that death passes on all men because all men are sinners in Adam! Bob, you and others want to makes this to refer to those who are actually sinners. But there is no warrant for this. Besides, all have not actually sinned in the manner in which Adam did as we shall see. Since, then, infants die, it proves that they are sinners If the assertion be, that death passes on adults because they are sinners, it may be asked why death, which is ‘the wages of sin,’ passes upon children, on the supposition ( by you and others ) that they are not sinners? And further, where is the likeness,if the expression ‘and so’ be interpreted in like manner? Is there any likeness between sin entering the world through one offense, and a man dying by his own actual sin? NO! Is there not rather the strongest contrast? Still less would this illustrate the way of justification through Christ, which is the Apostle’s object in this place. It is quite obvious that the Apostle designs to assert that all die because all are sinners.

All have sinned~ That is, all have really sinned, though not in their own persons. This does not mean, as some explain it, that infants become involved in the consequences of Adam’s sin without his guilt. Adam stood as the head, the forefather and representative of all his posterity They were all created in him; and in the guilt of his sin, as well as its consequence, they became partakers.

 

[Red Baker]

Bob Carabbio said:
Nope, I didn't the Bible is clear that humans die FOR THEIR OWN SINS, and not the sins or their ancestors. I inherited NOTHING from Adam except the SAME HUMAN NATURE that he was created with.

Part two....
These truths, that sin, death, and condemnation come upon all by one man, are clearly expressed in the following verses, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19.

Through the offense of one, many are dead. The judgment was by the one that sinned to condemnation. By one man’s offense death reigned by one. By the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation. By one man’s disobedience many were made sinners. You and many others labors to restrict the declaration in the first to an assertion of individual and actual transgression. The doctrine of imputed sin is clearly contained in the verses underconsideration. Adam’s sin was as truly the sin of every one of his posterity, as if it had been personally committed by him. It is only in this way that all could be involved in its consequences. Besides, it is only in this light that it is illustrative of justification by Christ~which show me that you and others do not ahve a clear understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ and his imputeth righteousness to his people as their right to eternal life. Believers truly lived in Christ as members of his elect body, thereby, die with Christ, and pay the debt in Him by their union or oneness with Him~this is the truth of the gospel of Christ, anything less is a corruption of the gospel preached by the Apostles of our Lord Jesus. It belongs not to us to inquire how these things can be. We receive them on the testimony of God. Secret things belong to the Lord our God; but those things which are revealed belong unto us and our children.


Romans 5:13~(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law...

This verse and the following are obviously interposed in vindication of the assertion that ‘all have sinned.’ It might be argued by opponents of the Gospel, that if there was no law, and therefore no transgression, anterior to Moses, the Apostle’s declaration would not hold good in respect to that long period which elapsed before the promulgation of the written commandments at Mount Sinai. In reply, Paul reasons backward from death to sin, and from sin to law. Admitting, in the last clause of the verse, that sin could not be imputed without law, he proves that sin was in the world by the undeniable fact that there was death; and if this proves that there was sin, then it inevitably follows that there must have been law: and thus he evinces the fallacy of the assumption on which the objection is founded. Death, he had shown, was, in all, the consequence of sin. But before the Mosaic law, as well as afterward, death reigned in the world universally, and with supreme dominion.

Until the Law~That is, from the entrance of sin and death by Adam until the law of Moses. It is hardly needful to remark that the use of the word ‘until’ does not imply a cessation of sin on the introduction of the Mosaic economy.

Was~ that is, really was, or truly existed, ~ not, according to you and others, ‘was counted,’ as if Adam’s posterity had his first sin counted to them, though it was not really theirs. It was their sin as truly as it was that of Adam, otherwise the justice of God would never have required that they should suffer for it. But it is not our business to try to account for this on principles level to the capacity of man, but to receive it as little children, on the authority of God.

But sin is not imputed~ Many are greatly in error in the interpretation of this expression, understanding it as if before the giving of the law sin existed, but was not imputed; but if sin exists, it must be reckoned sin. It means that sin does not exist where there is no law. The conclusion, therefore, is, that as sin is not reckoned where there is no law, and as sin was reckoned, or as it existed, before the law of Moses, therefore there was law before the law of Moses. The passage may be thus paraphrased: — ’For sin existed among men from Adam to Moses, as well as afterwards. Yet there is no sin where there is no law. There were, then, both sin and law before the giving of the law of Moses.’ The law before Moses is that which God had promulgated, besides the law written in the heart, which makes all men accountable.

 

[Red Baker]

Bob Carabbio said:
Nope, I didn't the Bible is clear that humans die FOR THEIR OWN SINS, and not the sins or their ancestors. I inherited NOTHING from Adam except the SAME HUMAN NATURE that he was created with.

Part three....

Ver. 14~ Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, whois the figure of Him that was to come.

Nevertheless, or but~ That is, though it is a truth that there is no sin where there is no law, and that where there is no law transgressed there is no death, yet we see that death reigned from Adam to Moses, as well as from Moses to the present time. The conclusion from this is self-evident,and therefore the Apostle leaves his readers to draw it ~ namely, that the human race have always been under law, and have universally been transgressors.

Even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression ~ Some suppose that the persons referred to are those who did not, like Adam, break a revealed or a positive law. But this is objected to on the following grounds:

1st, There is no strong or striking difference, and therefore no contrast,between the different methods of promulgating a law. Whether a law is made known by being written on the heart or on tables, is to the persons to whom it comes a matter with which they have no concern. A contrast might as well be made between those who know a law by reading it themselves, and those who hear it read, or between those who hear it immediately from the lawgiver, and those who hear it through the medium of others.

2nd, The reason of introducing the persons referred to by the word even, implies that they are such persons as apparently ought to be excluded from the reign of sin and death. This cannot designate those who in anyway know the law. But it evidently applies to infants. No one will cordially receive this except the man who, like a little child, submits to the testimony of God. Indeed, no man can understand the grounds of this imputation, so as to be able perfectly to justify it on principles applicable to human life. It must always stand, not on our ability to see its justice, but on our belief that God speaks true, and that it is just, as the Judge of all the earth in all things does justly, whether we are able to see it or not.

3rd, The word even supposes that the persons referred to are but a portion of those generally included in the declaration of the preceding clauses.These cannot be such as received not a positive law, for all, from Adam toMoses, are such; but it will apply to infants. Death reigned from Adam to Moses, over all the human race, even over infants, who did not actually sin, but sinned in Adam.

4th, Who is the image, figure, or type. ~This appears to have been suggested from the immediately preceding clause, and to imply that the persons referred to were sinners, or transgressors of law, just as the saved are righteous ~ the former sinners in Adam, although they had not actually sinned as he did, just as the others are righteous in Christ, although not actually righteous like Him. Those who are saved fulfill the law just as the others break the law, namely, in their great head or representative.

5th~ Even if the persons here referred to were those who did not break a positive or a revealed law, yet it will come to the same thing. If the reign of death proves the reign of sin in such persons, must not the reign of death over infants equally prove the reign of sin? If the death of adults before the time of Moses was a proof of their being sinners, then of necessity the death of infants must prove the same thing. If death does not prove sin in infants, it cannot prove sin in any. If infants may die though they are not sinners, then may adults die without being sinners.

The burden of proof now lies in your corner to disprove what we have posted showing your lack of understanding concerning the doctrine of imputation of sin and of righteousness.

 

[3 Resurrections]

If infants may die though they are not sinners, then may adults die without being sinners.

Red, you know that I am already on the same page with your comments when it comes to teachings about imputation and representation. Yet the way this one sentence was structured sent up a red flag for me. Infants from conception onward DO die because they are sinners, not because they have necessarily had opportunity to commit a sin yet. The death sentence passes upon even a one-celled human embryo, since at the very moment of conception, that conceived human child is considered to be "IN Adam" in Adam's fallen state, and will consequently die once at some point.

This theme aligns with what Job said in Job 14:4. "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one." Anyone descending from the race of Adam in his fallen state is consequently unclean by that association with being "IN Adam". I'm fairly sure I remember you expressing agreement with this before on our other website.

 

[Hobie]

Guns blazing?

Eze_18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

They will perish, but the devil lays the lie that maybe they can get a another chance (purgatory) or they are locked in (OSAS), or everyone goes to heaven (Universalism).... So lots of snares laid out there to deceive...

 

[Johan]

So lots of snares laid out there to deceive...

Oh I concur-lots of snares and ditches laid out to deceive.

 

[Hobie]

Red, you know that I am already on the same page with your comments when it comes to teachings about imputation and representation. Yet the way this one sentence was structured sent up a red flag for me. Infants from conception onward DO die because they are sinners, not because they have necessarily had opportunity to commit a sin yet. The death sentence passes upon even a one-celled human embryo, since at the very moment of conception, that conceived human child is considered to be "IN Adam" in Adam's fallen state, and will consequently die once at some point.

This theme aligns with what Job said in Job 14:4. "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one." Anyone descending from the race of Adam in his fallen state is consequently unclean by that association with being "IN Adam". I'm fairly sure I remember you expressing agreement with this before on our other website.

No, the Bible does not teach that, and in fact it gives us this..
Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

[Johan]

They will perish, but the devil lays the lie that maybe they can get a another chance (purgatory) or they are locked in (OSAS), or everyone goes to heaven (Universalism).... So lots of snares laid out there to deceive...

Of course there are those who will perish. However-

Eze_18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Old Testament Bible Verses about Repentance
2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Psalm 38:18
I confess my iniquity; I am sorry for my sin.

Psalm 51:13
Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will return to you.

Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy. - Proverbs 28:13
Proverbs 28:13
Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.

Isaiah 55:6-7
Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Jeremiah 26:3
It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may relent of the disaster that I intend to do to them because of their evil deeds.

Ezekiel 18:21-23
But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

Joel 2:13
And rend your hearts and not your garments. Return to the Lord your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster.

Jonah 3:10
When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.

Zechariah 1:3
Therefore say to them, Thus declares the Lord of hosts: Return to me, says the Lord of hosts, and I will return to you, says the Lord of hosts.

John the Baptist’s Message of Repentance
Matthew 3:8
Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

Matthew 3:11
I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:4
John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 3:3
And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:24
Before his coming, John had proclaimed a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

Acts 19:4
And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”

Jesus Preaches Repentance
Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Matthew 9:13
Go and learn what this means, “I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.” For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.

Mark 1:15
And saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Luke 5:31-32
And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

Luke 17:3
Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

The Disciples Preach Repentance
Mark 6:12
So they went out and proclaimed that people should repent.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 3:19
Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out.

Acts 5:31
God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 8:22
Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.

Acts 17:30
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

What has this to do with OSAS and purgatory?
J.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No, the Bible does not teach that, and in fact it gives us this..
Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Jeremiah needed a Savior the same as every conceived human does. What you have quoted from Jeremiah 1:5 does not contradict this. God can and has chosen individuals to be the elect even before they were born or have any kind of existence. "God has chosen things that are not to bring to nothing things that are..." (I Corinthians 1:28). At some point after human conception "IN Adam", God must step in to regenerate that individual. In the case of John the Baptist, as in Jeremiah's case, apparently this was done in utero.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Oh I concur-lots of snares and ditches laid out to deceive.

Yup - it's called "Theology".

 

[Bob Carabbio]

St Peter doesn't give their sinful nature a pass at the pearly gate.

What's "Saint Peter" got to do with anything???