An Overview of the Tribulation.

[3 Resurrections]

The first of the 4 horsemen is not Christ Jesus.

The white horse rider of Revelation 19 (which was definitely Christ) was the same white horse rider of Revelation 6 who was given a crown. You are not offering an explanation of why you think a crown was given to the Antichrist. Nowhere in scripture is that spoken of, but a crown WAS given to Christ on His resurrection-day ascension, and this crown given to the white horse rider of Revelation 6 is the same crown of the Great High Priesthood of Christ.

 

[CrowCross]

The white horse rider of Revelation 19 (which was definitely Christ) was the same white horse rider of Revelation 6 who was given a crown. You are not offering an explanation of why you think a crown was given to the Antichrist. Nowhere in scripture is that spoken of, but a crown WAS given to Christ on His resurrection-day ascension, and this crown given to the white horse rider of Revelation 6 is the same crown of the Great High Priesthood of Christ.

Did you ever notice a different word is used for the crown of Rev 6 and Rev 19? You can go to bible hub and look it up if you like.

 

[EarlyActs]

When did this happen?

12And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

What would happen if a star actually fell to earth--and the line says several did? What I mean is, no matter when that happens, earth is toast, so there can't be any events after it. So that should be the end of the book, yet there is more. How? So it is not meant in a crass, brittle, literal 'scientific-prediction' sense.

Some of these things characterize the crucifixion, but also the destruction of the city by fire in 70. Have you read Josephus describe what happened? It is only marginally embellished. There are too many objective things there.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

“The Great Tribulation” Of Matthew
24 & Luke 21​

“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be” [Matt. 24:21].

Most of you who has access to these remarks probably paints this “tribulation” as a future event, in spite of Jesus’ forecast in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 that this terrible distress would occur in His generation, and did occur in A. D. 67-70 when the Roman Army destroyed Jerusalem and the Jewish State.

Biblical scholarship, including Adam Clarke, understands “the whole world” in verse 14 as “the whole world” of the Roman Empire. [Compare Acts 17:6 & I Peter 5:9 on the “whole world.”] Please note the symbolisms of Matthew 24.

“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth” [or Roman Empire] will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other” [Matt. 24:30-31].

1] The destruction of Jerusalem was such a terrifying example of divine judgment, described in terms like the “clouds of the sky and with power and great glory,” that all the Jewish tribes mourned.

2] “His angels” [messengers] were the apostles and those who followed afterwards.

3] The “trumpet call” was the trumpet call of the Gospel, which was heard throughout the Roman provinces and beyond.

4] The “gathering of His elect” were the Gentiles who had been chosen for salvation, in place of the rebellious Jews.

5] It should be obvious to the logistic mind that the following warnings by Jesus relate to the destruction of Jerusalem, not to His second and final coming.

Verses 17 & 18— “Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.” Why? Because their time to escape the Roman Army would be limited.

Verse 19— “And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!” Why? To flee the Roman Army under such circumstances would almost be impossible.

Verse 20— “Pray that your flight [escape] may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.” Why? Escaping the pending tribulation would be uncommonly difficult. Under such horrific conditions, “...let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains” [V. 15].

Another interesting thought is recorded in Luke 21:28, the parallel chapter. Jesus spoke of the believers’ deliverance or liberation—“redemption.” This points to the flight out of Jerusalem and safety from the horrible calamity. This was a warning for believers to flee, as noted in verse 15 of Matthew.

I think it is safe to say that Matthew 24 and Luke 21 do not refer to the second personal coming of our Lord, but rather to His coming in judgment upon the stiff-necked and rebellious Jewish nation. In light of this biblical evidence, it seems reasonable to conclude that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish State are alluded to, which occurred in A. D. 67-70.

A little over 2,000 year ago a Jewish historian by the name of Josephus witnessed and recorded the war between the Roman Army and the Jewish people. The major part of the battle occurred in and around Jerusalem. The account by Josephus is almost an echo of the predictions of Jesus, as recorded in the 24th chapter of Matthew and the 21st chapter of Luke.

The war began in 67 A.D. and ended in 70 A.D. On August 10, 70 A.D., Jerusalem was stormed and what followed was a universal massacre of the Jewish people—1,100,000 perished, and 100,000 survivors were sold into slavery. Such was the “tribulation” our Lord prophesied of in verse 21.​

 

[EarlyActs]

“The Great Tribulation” Of Matthew
24 & Luke 21​

“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be” [Matt. 24:21].

Most of you who has access to these remarks probably paints this “tribulation” as a future event, in spite of Jesus’ forecast in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 that this terrible distress would occur in His generation, and did occur in A. D. 67-70 when the Roman Army destroyed Jerusalem and the Jewish State.

Biblical scholarship, including Adam Clarke, understands “the whole world” in verse 14 as “the whole world” of the Roman Empire. [Compare Acts 17:6 & I Peter 5:9 on the “whole world.”] Please note the symbolisms of Matthew 24.

“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth” [or Roman Empire] will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other” [Matt. 24:30-31].

1] The destruction of Jerusalem was such a terrifying example of divine judgment, described in terms like the “clouds of the sky and with power and great glory,” that all the Jewish tribes mourned.

2] “His angels” [messengers] were the apostles and those who followed afterwards.

3] The “trumpet call” was the trumpet call of the Gospel, which was heard throughout the Roman provinces and beyond.

4] The “gathering of His elect” were the Gentiles who had been chosen for salvation, in place of the rebellious Jews.

5] It should be obvious to the logistic mind that the following warnings by Jesus relate to the destruction of Jerusalem, not to His second and final coming.

Verses 17 & 18— “Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.” Why? Because their time to escape the Roman Army would be limited.

Verse 19— “And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!” Why? To flee the Roman Army under such circumstances would almost be impossible.

Verse 20— “Pray that your flight [escape] may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.” Why? Escaping the pending tribulation would be uncommonly difficult. Under such horrific conditions, “...let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains” [V. 15].

Another interesting thought is recorded in Luke 21:28, the parallel chapter. Jesus spoke of the believers’ deliverance or liberation—“redemption.” This points to the flight out of Jerusalem and safety from the horrible calamity. This was a warning for believers to flee, as noted in verse 15 of Matthew.

I think it is safe to say that Matthew 24 and Luke 21 do not refer to the second personal coming of our Lord, but rather to His coming in judgment upon the stiff-necked and rebellious Jewish nation. In light of this biblical evidence, it seems reasonable to conclude that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish State are alluded to, which occurred in A. D. 67-70.

A little over 2,000 year ago a Jewish historian by the name of Josephus witnessed and recorded the war between the Roman Army and the Jewish people. The major part of the battle occurred in and around Jerusalem. The account by Josephus is almost an echo of the predictions of Jesus, as recorded in the 24th chapter of Matthew and the 21st chapter of Luke.

The war began in 67 A.D. and ended in 70 A.D. On August 10, 70 A.D., Jerusalem was stormed and what followed was a universal massacre of the Jewish people—1,100,000 perished, and 100,000 survivors were sold into slavery. Such was the “tribulation” our Lord prophesied of in verse 21.​

Mostly a good view of the text. I am inclined to hold a delay view about Mt 24:29, in which the original plan was the end of the world, but the Father decided to delay. There are other passages specifically about such a delay.

Basically, if your view is not fairly close to the above, you have no drama in the NT, in its tension between the direction Christians and Judaistic Jews went. See my book THE COVENANT REVOLT, M. Sanford, Amazon.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Did you ever notice a different word is used for the crown of Rev 6 and Rev 19? You can go to bible hub and look it up if you like.

Thank you, yes, I did just do that. Apparently that crown (stephanos) given to the white horse rider in Revelation 6:2 is the same crown given to Jesus, which is mentioned in Hebrews 2:9. "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned (estephanomenon) with glory and honour..." This was the glory given to the resurrected Christ, when God "raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory" that day (1 Peter 1:21).

As for the "many crowns" (diademata) on the head of the Revelation 19:12 white horse rider Jesus, those "many crowns" represented the multiple kingdoms of this world that Christ confiscated from the dead Satan, the Prince of the kingdoms of this world, once Christ destroyed and burned that anointed cherub to ashes at the close of the Great Tribulation.

In Luke 4:5-6, Satan had once boasted to Christ in the wilderness temptation that all the kingdoms of the world and the power and glory of them had been given unto him. Christ was prophesied to "inherit all nations" in Psalms 82:8, which He did in AD 70, and all those confiscated crowns (diademata) of the kingdoms of this world were His to wear in Revelation 19.

 

[CrowCross]

What would happen if a star actually fell to earth--and the line says several did? What I mean is, no matter when that happens, earth is toast, so there can't be any events after it. So that should be the end of the book, yet there is more. How? So it is not meant in a crass, brittle, literal 'scientific-prediction' sense.

Some of these things characterize the crucifixion, but also the destruction of the city by fire in 70. Have you read Josephus describe what happened? It is only marginally embellished. There are too many objective things there.

CrowCross shakes his head...you wanna believe Rev has already happened....have at it.

 

[CrowCross]

Thank you, yes, I did just do that. Apparently that crown (stephanos) given to the white horse rider in Revelation 6:2 is the same crown given to Jesus, which is mentioned in Hebrews 2:9. "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned (estephanomenon) with glory and honour..." This was the glory given to the resurrected Christ, when God "raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory" that day (1 Peter 1:21).

Nope. Try again.

Jesus was crowned with with glory and honour....just a bit different than you present. The word means adorn, decorate...

It doesn't refer to a literal crown like Rev 6 does.

Once again I have to ask the question...Did you ever notice a different word is used for the crown of Rev 6 and Rev 19? You can go to bible hub and look it up if you like.

As for the "many crowns" (diademata) on the head of the Revelation 19:12 white horse rider Jesus, those "many crowns" represented the multiple kingdoms of this world that Christ confiscated from the dead Satan, the Prince of the kingdoms of this world, once Christ destroyed and burned that anointed cherub to ashes at the close of the Great Tribulation.

In Luke 4:5-6, Satan had once boasted to Christ in the wilderness temptation that all the kingdoms of the world and the power and glory of them had been given unto him. Christ was prophesied to "inherit all nations" in Psalms 82:8, which He did in AD 70, and all those confiscated crowns (diademata) of the kingdoms of this world were His to wear in Revelation 19.

 

[Marilyn C]

White represents purity the righteousness of Christ Christ . It;s what the saints are clothed in.

Also the angels -

`And the 7 angels came out of the temple, having the 7 plagues, clothed in pure and WHITE linen, and having their breast girded with golden girdles.` (Rev. 15: 6)

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Mostly a good view of the text. I am inclined to hold a delay view about Mt 24:29, in which the original plan was the end of the world, but the Father decided to delay. There are other passages specifically about such a delay.

Basically, if your view is not fairly close to the above, you have no drama in the NT, in its tension between the direction Christians and Judaistic Jews went. See my book THE COVENANT REVOLT, M. Sanford, Amazon.

EarlyActs:

In reference to your comments relative to Matthew 24:29, in Post #45, I understand that verse to be symbolical, as is usual in prophecy, rather than literal. After the destruction of Jerusalem, the causes began to work that led to the great apostasy of the redeemed community and produced the Dark Ages of said community.

The sun was the "son of righteousness" in that during the Dark Ages His light was darkened. The moon shines by reflected light of the sun and if the sun is darkened, so will be the moon. During that darkened period of the Middle Ages, the redeemed community gave forth little light.

The stars that fell represent great teachers of the Christian movement—apostles and evangelists. When the apostles were dethroned by the Romish apostasy, "the stars fell from heaven." Verses 30 and 31 seem to embrace the great reformation that occurred centuries later, including the one Luther initiated. Verse 34 says, "this generation will not pass until all these things take place." It is noted by some biblical scholars that "this generation" means the Jewish race instead of only those then living. The Greek word so rendered is employed in the sense of "race" in the Greek classics, such as Matthew 12:45 & Luke 16:8.​

 

[Marilyn C]

By being in the center of the land connection between 3 continents, I can see why it would be described as such. Also the blood of the prophets is not found in other countries...

It is important not to be too brittle with the language. I did an 'inventory' once and by the time I got to the 10th judgement event (out of the 21), there was -275% of the earth left. You read that correctly. It's called "overkill," lol. This type of literature is dramatic for effect, not for "exact" prediction.

Find me a planet that can survive having a star come down on it and survive. I think the smallest known star is some 1000x the earth... It would be difficult.

The blood of the prophets was certainly also by Rome, the Barbarians, the RCC, Islam, etc etc.

I believe God says precisely what He means and does not leave it open to speculation or opinion.

And I think you miscalculated God`s judgments on the earth. Remember God upholds the earth, and He is not going to destroy it till just before the NHNE.

 

[Mr GLee]

Also the angels -

`And the 7 angels came out of the temple, having the 7 plagues, clothed in pure and WHITE linen, and having their breast girded with golden girdles.` (Rev. 15: 6)

Hi thanks

Something have be thinking on, back burner down, low..

The angels are the messengers as apostles.How beautiful are thier feet shod with the gospel

The english translation of the Greek angelos is messenger not angel.Angel a word used to deceive coined as a oral tradition of men It would seem to give the illusion of a unseen creation as disembodied workers with a familiar spirit gods mankind communing with dead relatives or bible heros

The need a idol image Like that of Rachel which she hid from her father. . again a image is needed in order to put one face on the legion of false gods. . . today some call patron saints (3500 and rising)

The Holy Spirt that worked with Jesus the Son of man. the Father the Spirit of sonship . did not send a unsen creation to strengthen Jesus By his own power yoked with him the father strengthened the Son . I would think God whose name as a attribute is Jealous would not share his eternal glory with created dying being on his judgement . In that way God as a law of faith or labor of Love declared His law . ."Let there be" the Faithful Creator displaying his unseen power by the thing he created by His faith."It was God good." goody, goody perfect good

I now its not the most popular and I don't enjoy thinking I am misunder I am no scholar but it seems to tie into the under understanding of another teaching authority in some ways

Still working on it (purple ) my comment or opinion

Luke 22:43-45King James Version43 And there appeared an angel (message)unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.


2 Kings 23 :24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Nope. Try again.

Jesus was crowned with with glory and honour....just a bit different than you present. The word means adorn, decorate...

It doesn't refer to a literal crown like Rev 6 does.

That is the same root word in Greek used in both Revelation 6 for the white horse rider being given a crown (stephanos) and again in Hebrews 2:9 where the resurrected Christ was seen as having been crowned (estephanomenon). It is a victor's circlet of honor for an achievement. It is also the same word for the crown (stephanos) of thorns given to Christ, to mock Him as being King of the Jews.

Whichever crown (stephanos) you want to refer to - the crown of thorns or the crown of the Great High Priesthood - Jesus was given both of these crowns respectively on the occasions of His crucifixion and His resurrection-day ascension to God when He gained victory over death and was enthroned at the right hand of God.

That golden "crown" (stephanos) of Christ's High Priesthood is also described as being on the head of the Son of Man wielding the sickle in Revelation 14:14, sitting on a cloud of heaven, "harvesting" the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints out of the earth.

The different Greek word "diademata" for the "many crowns" that the Revelation 19 Christ was wearing are yet more crowns that Christ is now wearing. These "many crowns" (diademata) were those of the kingdoms of this world, which were no longer plagued with the presence of the Satanic realm ruling behind the scenes of the world's kingdoms, once that entire Satanic realm was totally destroyed by God in AD 70.

The white horse rider Jesus Christ now wears all those crowns, whether "stephanos" or "diademata". The Antichrist was never given any of these crowns, so he cannot be the white horse rider of Revelation 6.

 

[CrowCross]

That is the same root word in Greek used in both Revelation 6 for the white horse rider being given a crown (stephanos) and again in Hebrews 2:9 where the resurrected Christ was seen as having been crowned (estephanomenon). It is a victor's circlet of honor for an achievement. It is also the same word for the crown (stephanos) of thorns given to Christ, to mock Him as being King of the Jews.

Whichever crown (stephanos) you want to refer to - the crown of thorns or the crown of the Great High Priesthood - Jesus was given both of these crowns respectively on the occasions of His crucifixion and His resurrection-day ascension to God when He gained victory over death and was enthroned at the right hand of God.

That golden "crown" (stephanos) of Christ's High Priesthood is also described as being on the head of the Son of Man wielding the sickle in Revelation 14:14, sitting on a cloud of heaven, "harvesting" the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints out of the earth.

The different Greek word "diademata" for the "many crowns" that the Revelation 19 Christ was wearing are yet more crowns that Christ is now wearing. These "many crowns" (diademata) were those of the kingdoms of this world, which were no longer plagued with the presence of the Satanic realm ruling behind the scenes of the world's kingdoms, once that entire Satanic realm was totally destroyed by God in AD 70.

The white horse rider Jesus Christ now wears all those crowns, whether "stephanos" or "diademata". The Antichrist was never given any of these crowns, so he cannot be the white horse rider of Revelation 6.

"and I heard one of the four living creatures say in a thunderous voice, “Come!”..... I don't think one of the four living creatures will be directing and telling Christ Jesus what to do.

The remaining horsemen don't seem to be in alignment with the purpose of Jesus.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The remaining horsemen don't seem to be in alignment with the purpose of Jesus.

One of the "purposes of Jesus" was to fulfill the blood oath that the Jewish leaders called down on their own heads for betraying and murdering Himself. "His blood be on us and on our children", they said. God heard that blood oath, and gave all that judgment to the Son, and He poured out His vengeance on that single, first-century "wicked generation".

During the days of His earthly ministry, Jesus said, "I came to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!" (Luke 12:49). Fire is a destroyer of evil and a refiner of good things. Both purposes were fulfilled in that first-century generation. The "fiery trial" of persecution and hardship refined the faith of that generation of believers, and literal fire destroyed the "weak and beggarly elements" of the OC worship system by the close of AD 70.

The remaining three horsemen of Revelation 6 were describing the means by which Christ brought this judgment about.

 

[Mr GLee]

A picture of the bride of Christ the church the Sun and moon under her feet the reward given to her the husbands crown of eternal life represent by twelve stones to represent his glory that the devil usurped .He won it back forever all together represent the same one bride the church

Revelation 12King James Version And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

 

[3 Resurrections]

"and I heard one of the four living creatures say in a thunderous voice, “Come!”..... I don't think one of the four living creatures will be directing and telling Christ Jesus what to do.

They were directing John to "Come and see" - not Christ.

 

[CrowCross]

One of the "purposes of Jesus" was to fulfill the blood oath that the Jewish leaders called down on their own heads for betraying and murdering Himself. "His blood be on us and on our children", they said. God heard that blood oath, and gave all that judgment to the Son, and He poured out His vengeance on that single, first-century "wicked generation".

During the days of His earthly ministry, Jesus said, "I came to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!" (Luke 12:49). Fire is a destroyer of evil and a refiner of good things. Both purposes were fulfilled in that first-century generation. The "fiery trial" of persecution and hardship refined the faith of that generation of believers, and literal fire destroyed the "weak and beggarly elements" of the OC worship system by the close of AD 70.

The remaining three horsemen of Revelation 6 were describing the means by which Christ brought this judgment about.

"Both purposes were fulfilled in that first-century generation."....Nope.

Never has the world seen the effects of the 4 horseman.

Those in the fifth seal would not have said....."
“How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”....if Jesus did that with the first 4 horses as you claim above.

 

[CrowCross]

They were directing John to "Come and see" - not Christ.

The "come" was directed at the horsemen.

In chapter 19 11-16 John presents a picture of what the "coming" of Jesus will actually look like.....it is not like Chapter 6. Why? The rider of the chapter 6 white horse is not Jesus.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Never has the world seen the effects of the 4 horseman.

Those in the fifth seal would not have said....."
“How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”....if Jesus did that with the first 4 horses as you claim above.

Yes, the world did see the effects of those 4 horsemen. John told the Philadelphian church believers that there was an hour of trial that was "about to come upon all the world" (Revelation 3:10).

Paul warned those on Mars Hill of the same thing, saying, "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent: Because he hath apppointed a day, in which he is about to judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men in that he hath raised him from the dead." (Acts 17:30-31).

Those in the 5th seal which was opened, pleading for vengeance for their shed blood, were the very same ones Jesus spoke about in the parable of the unjust judge in Luke 18:7-8. Jesus said there about His own elect that God would "avenge them speedily" at his coming, though He had been bearing long with them as they had been crying day and night for vengeance.

These under the altar pleading for vengeance in Revelation 6 were each given white robes (of resurrected righteousness) and told to wait for only a "little season" until their brethren which were "about to be killed" just as they had been would have also perished in like manner. This was the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints which were given white robes of resurrected righteousness in AD 33, and told to wait for a little season on the earth in those glorified bodies until the rest of their brethren in the first century had also died under persecution. Together, they would all meet the Lord in the air and be taken to heaven in AD 70.