An Overview of the Tribulation.

[CrowCross]

Yes, the world did see the effects of those 4 horsemen. John told the Philadelphian church believers that there was an hour of trial that was "about to come upon all the world" (Revelation 3:10).

And this world wide event was???????

Paul warned those on Mars Hill of the same thing, saying, "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent: Because he hath apppointed a day, in which he is about to judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men in that he hath raised him from the dead." (Acts 17:30-31).

Those in the 5th seal which was opened, pleading for vengeance for their shed blood, were the very same ones Jesus spoke about in the parable of the unjust judge in Luke 18:7-8. Jesus said there about His own elect that God would "avenge them speedily" at his coming, though He had been bearing long with them as they had been crying day and night for vengeance.

These under the altar pleading for vengeance in Revelation 6 were each given white robes (of resurrected righteousness) and told to wait for only a "little season" until their brethren which were "about to be killed" just as they had been would have also perished in like manner. This was the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints which were given white robes of resurrected righteousness in AD 33, and told to wait for a little season on the earth in those glorified bodies until the rest of their brethren in the first century had also died under persecution. Together, they would all meet the Lord in the air and be taken to heaven in AD 70.

Instead of you constantly trying to sneak out the back door.....why don't you show us how Rev was fulfilled.

 

[3 Resurrections]

And this world wide event was???????

Not a single event, but multiple events culminating in Christ's bodily return at Pentecost day in the year AD 70 to the Mount of Olives location, as prophesied by Zechariah 14:4-5.

Instead of you constantly trying to sneak out the back door.....why don't you show us how Rev was fulfilled.

Please realize that I intend to post on this topic as soon as I can possibly do so in conjunction with my workroom schedule. It has nothing to do with my "sneaking out the back door". I simply don't have hours of unlimited time to devote to this at one time. Designers expect custom products finished at a certain time, and I am obligated to meet their deadlines. I haven't quite reached retirement age yet.

 

[CrowCross]

Not a single event, but multiple events culminating in Christ's bodily return at Pentecost day in the year AD 70 to the Mount of Olives location, as prophesied by Zechariah 14:4-5.

When did this happen....4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south......answer....it didn't. It's still future.

Please realize that I intend to post on this topic as soon as I can possibly do so in conjunction with my workroom schedule. It has nothing to do with my "sneaking out the back door". I simply don't have hours of unlimited time to devote to this at one time. Designers expect custom products finished at a certain time, and I am obligated to meet their deadlines. I haven't quite reached retirement age yet.

 

[EarlyActs]

CrowCross shakes his head...you wanna believe Rev has already happened....have at it.

It is primarily pastoral for the worst moment in Israel's history. It is not primarily prediction, as you can see from doing an inventory, navigating literal reality (see the star question above), the fact that it starts over. I hope you know of IVP as a reliable Christian intelligent publisher. A recent coverage of the Rev from them is Barnet's BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE NT.

 

[EarlyActs]

EarlyActs:

In reference to your comments relative to Matthew 24:29, in Post #45, I understand that verse to be symbolical, as is usual in prophecy, rather than literal. After the destruction of Jerusalem, the causes began to work that led to the great apostasy of the redeemed community and produced the Dark Ages of said community.

The sun was the "son of righteousness" in that during the Dark Ages His light was darkened. The moon shines by reflected light of the sun and if the sun is darkened, so will be the moon. During that darkened period of the Middle Ages, the redeemed community gave forth little light.

The stars that fell represent great teachers of the Christian movement—apostles and evangelists. When the apostles were dethroned by the Romish apostasy, "the stars fell from heaven." Verses 30 and 31 seem to embrace the great reformation that occurred centuries later, including the one Luther initiated. Verse 34 says, "this generation will not pass until all these things take place." It is noted by some biblical scholars that "this generation" means the Jewish race instead of only those then living. The Greek word so rendered is employed in the sense of "race" in the Greek classics, such as Matthew 12:45 & Luke 16:8.​

The star-falling damaged the earth. Even on a symbolic level, I would not accept what you are saying.

Lk 23:38 limits the time range to that generation, by virtue of the biological age of an adult.

 

[EarlyActs]

The blood of the prophets was certainly also by Rome, the Barbarians, the RCC, Islam, etc etc.

I believe God says precisely what He means and does not leave it open to speculation or opinion.

And I think you miscalculated God`s judgments on the earth. Remember God upholds the earth, and He is not going to destroy it till just before the NHNE.

But the vision of the city in question is also the one 'where the Lord was crucified'...

Do a moving % based inventory of the population and material of earth through the Rev. When I got to the 10th judgement it was -275%. Kind of hard to destroy it again after -100%, right?

You have no basis for calling the Rev precise. None at all. For ex,. 144K Jewish believers is meant symbolically as both a lot and as completeness.

IVP is a very reputable publisher; please see their book Barnet's BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE NT, the ch. "Patmos." It is very thorough as to what is going on.

 

[EarlyActs]

And this world wide event was???????

Instead of you constantly trying to sneak out the back door.....why don't you show us how Rev was fulfilled.

Remember that until 70's dust had settled, they had every reason to believe that the total end of this world was near. A few places alert us to a delay--not of Israel's destruction but of the whole world. Even the Rev is written this way.

 

[Marilyn C]

But the vision of the city in question is also the one 'where the Lord was crucified'...

Do a moving % based inventory of the population and material of earth through the Rev. When I got to the 10th judgement it was -275%. Kind of hard to destroy it again after -100%, right?

You have no basis for calling the Rev precise. None at all. For ex,. 144K Jewish believers is meant symbolically as both a lot and as completeness.

IVP is a very reputable publisher; please see their book Barnet's BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE NT, the ch. "Patmos." It is very thorough as to what is going on.

To understand what you say we would need detail of your findings.

144,000 Jewish priests -

`And you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.` (Ex. 19: 6)

`144,000 of all the tribes of Israel were sealed.` (Rev. 7: 4)

`144,000.......These were redeemed from among men, being the first-fruits to God and the Lamb.` (Rev. 14: 1 - 5)

`Then he measured its wall 144 cubits,...` (Rev. 21: 17)


Walls are for protection and here they represent Christ`s government ruling in the city - the 144,000 priests with the 12 kings.

 

[Mr GLee]

To understand what you say we would need detail of your findings.

144,000 Jewish priests -

`And you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.` (Ex. 19: 6)

`144,000 of all the tribes of Israel were sealed.` (Rev. 7: 4)

`144,000.......These were redeemed from among men, being the first-fruits to God and the Lamb.` (Rev. 14: 1 - 5)

`Then he measured its wall 144 cubits,...` (Rev. 21: 17)


Walls are for protection and here they represent Christ`s government ruling in the city - the 144,000 priests with the 12 kings.

Walls are represented by 12 a metaphor that speaks of the whole .12 apostles a remnant set aside to be used in Revelation 21 to represent all of the new testament believers . While gates represent the old testament saint. together as one bride make up the 144,000 the golden measure called hidden manna in Revelation 2:17. Not the literal measure of mankind. a number no man can count.

God does not number his people. He warns
of those of literal number . He desires we walk by the golden faith the eternal things not seen. many time the Jew put there hope in numbers .

They would go out when not called and when called they refused to move God revealed to them he did not chose them because of thier number but he had mercy mixed with grace them. One empowered by eternal God could put to flight ten thousand thousands

Deuteronomy 7:7-9 King James Version The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; . . . (forever)

The chaste virgin bride, the church.

God uses Paul as surrogate mother holding out the gospel in a hope God would apply his power to Tomothy .It became truth .

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women;( other gods) for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, (mankind) being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.












.

 

[EarlyActs]

To understand what you say we would need detail of your findings.

144,000 Jewish priests -

`And you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.` (Ex. 19: 6)

`144,000 of all the tribes of Israel were sealed.` (Rev. 7: 4)

`144,000.......These were redeemed from among men, being the first-fruits to God and the Lamb.` (Rev. 14: 1 - 5)

`Then he measured its wall 144 cubits,...` (Rev. 21: 17)


Walls are for protection and here they represent Christ`s government ruling in the city - the 144,000 priests with the 12 kings.

But I'm asking you to do one. You don't want my conclusions. I want your process or method. If you say that there are currently 100% population and 100% of an earth as of today, and then you start your scenario of Rev, what happens to the %s (notice how many halfs, thirds, wholes there are through the book).

The kingdom of priests and holy nation is about the believers already, I Peter 2. In Acts 1, when Jesus told people not to figure out the time of the kingdom of Israel, he next said that you will be clothed with priestly robes (research the verb) and you will have kingdom authority (what you are saying about the enthronement).

Please reconcile how "all" Israel gets saved but only 144K get saved.

Do you actually think people are going to live in a cube so big it is almost 1/3 of the volume of earth? Sounds like a futurist trap, really!

 

[Marilyn C]

But I'm asking you to do one. You don't want my conclusions. I want your process or method. If you say that there are currently 100% population and 100% of an earth as of today, and then you start your scenario of Rev, what happens to the %s (notice how many halfs, thirds, wholes there are through the book).

The kingdom of priests and holy nation is about the believers already, I Peter 2. In Acts 1, when Jesus told people not to figure out the time of the kingdom of Israel, he next said that you will be clothed with priestly robes (research the verb) and you will have kingdom authority (what you are saying about the enthronement).

Please reconcile how "all" Israel gets saved but only 144K get saved.

Do you actually think people are going to live in a cube so big it is almost 1/3 of the volume of earth? Sounds like a futurist trap, really!

OK. It will take a few days as I`m visiting a friend.

I believe the NJ description is symbolic.

 

[CrowCross]

Do you actually think people are going to live in a cube so big it is almost 1/3 of the volume of earth? Sounds like a futurist trap, really!

That big??? Care to share how you arrived at that?

 

[Mr GLee]

But I'm asking you to do one. You don't want my conclusions. I want your process or method. If you say that there are currently 100% population and 100% of an earth as of today, and then you start your scenario of Rev, what happens to the %s (notice how many halfs, thirds, wholes there are through the book).

The kingdom of priests and holy nation is about the believers already, I Peter 2. In Acts 1, when Jesus told people not to figure out the time of the kingdom of Israel, he next said that you will be clothed with priestly robes (research the verb) and you will have kingdom authority (what you are saying about the enthronement).

Please reconcile how "all" Israel gets saved but only 144K get saved.

Do you actually think people are going to live in a cube so big it is almost 1/3 of the volume of earth? Sounds like a futurist trap, really!

All israel are not born again Christians the new name God promised to re name his bride which he did in Acts

Christian a more befitting name to name the bride of all nations .Literally meaning residents of the city of Christ prepared for his wife the church called Zion in isaiah

isaiah 62:1-5 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's (earthly) sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom (Christ) rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

God rejoice over thee = Over thee Timothy the chaste virgin bride the church. God rejoicing over his bride the church

 

[EarlyActs]

That big??? Care to share how you arrived at that?

1400 miles cubed...

 

[CrowCross]

1400 miles cubed...

From what I read the earth is...1.08 trillion cubic kilometers of rock and metal.

If I got my conversion and decimals right that's like 6.710809e+11 cubic miles.

The city would only go approx. 1/2 way across America.

 

[EarlyActs]

From what I read the earth is...1.08 trillion cubic kilometers of rock and metal.

If I got my conversion and decimals right that's like 6.710809e+11 cubic miles.

The city would only go approx. 1/2 way across America.

Try to remember you're reading a caricature type of Jewish literature, not a 2020 physics book. Crass literalism is not the way to go.

Try this ex.:
19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.[c]

Do you see the problem? The language is vivid and striking but it can't happen. There is no literal press. No grapes. Jerusalem is on top of sloped terrain. So what is the point of all this? The effect or the literalism?

In ch 21: the Lamb and God are the temple and the light of the city. We have to adjust our thinking for things like this. It's the NHNE anyway,so no words can really capture its infinities.

 

[Mr GLee]

Try to remember you're reading a caricature type of Jewish literature, not a 2020 physics book. Crass literalism is not the way to go.

Try this ex.:
19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.[c]

Do you see the problem? The language is vivid and striking but it can't happen. There is no literal press. No grapes. Jerusalem is on top of sloped terrain. So what is the point of all this? The effect or the literalism?

In ch 21: the Lamb and God are the temple and the light of the city. We have to adjust our thinking for things like this. It's the NHNE anyway,so no words can really capture its infinities.

Exactly (no limbo in between) either a parable is in view or we simply literalize

In order to rightly divide or interpret the parables .the 20/20 prescription a very valuable tool using the temporal things seen (The historically true) must be mixed with the unseen eternal things of God .( right the prescription on your heart don't leave earth without it)

2 Corinthian 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

No mixing no gospel rest.

Hebrews 4King James Versio Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

 

[CrowCross]

Try to remember you're reading a caricature type of Jewish literature, not a 2020 physics book. Crass literalism is not the way to go.

Try this ex.:
19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.[c]

Do you see the problem? The language is vivid and striking but it can't happen. There is no literal press. No grapes. Jerusalem is on top of sloped terrain. So what is the point of all this? The effect or the literalism?

In ch 21: the Lamb and God are the temple and the light of the city. We have to adjust our thinking for things like this. It's the NHNE anyway,so no words can really capture its infinities.

Whether this is a caricature type of Jewish literature or more literal....NOTHING has ever happened in history that has come close to this depiction.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Whether this is a caricature type of Jewish literature or more literal....NOTHING has ever happened in history that has come close to this depiction.

Sure it did. Josephus described this flow of blood from the slain in Jerusalem being able to actually extinguish some of the fires burning in the city. That's a lot of bloodshed. The 1600 stadia to which this bloodshed would extend describes the terrain of Vespasian's bloody path of conquest after landing at Ptolemais, traveling with Titus to Galilee and through Idumea and Samaria, as he headed towards the final target of Jerusalem. It was a sort of "scorched earth" battle campaign, in order to drive all the refugees from the conquered cities towards Jerusalem, where the final Roman siege of the city under Titus would bring victory over Judea's rebellion.

 

[CrowCross]

Sure it did. Josephus described this flow of blood from the slain in Jerusalem being able to actually extinguish some of the fires burning in the city. That's a lot of bloodshed. The 1600 stadia to which this bloodshed would extend describes the terrain of Vespasian's bloody path of conquest after landing at Ptolemais, traveling with Titus to Galilee and through Idumea and Samaria, as he headed towards the final target of Jerusalem. It was a sort of "scorched earth" battle campaign, in order to drive all the refugees from the conquered cities towards Jerusalem, where the final Roman siege of the city under Titus would bring victory over Judea's rebellion.

Battle of Armageddon is being described.