Idealist/Amillennialism

[TMSO]

Your notion of kingdom is the Jewish notion, a physical earthly kingdom, it is not the Kingdom Jesus offered.
Jesus refused the earthly kingdom which the Jews sought and offered him (Jn 6:15).

They sought to make Jesus king for a free lunch. They did not actually offer him any kingdom. That is not the same as when the disciples asked Jesus for signs of when He will be revealed as king and enter into His Kingdom. (The greek word coming in the disciples question, what are the signs of your coming, is a word used for a king's official visit.) They were asking when Jesus would be revealed to be the King, and in Acts 1 they asked Jesus if He would now restore the Kingdom to Israel. He didn't say no. He didn't say there would be no kingdom in Israel. He said it wasn't for them to know the times and epochs established by the Father. In other words, the kingdom being restored to Israel is one of those times/epochs established by the Father.

The temporal Messianic kingdom is not of this world (Jn 18:36), it is of the spiritual world (Mt 3:2), an invisible kingdom (Lk 17:20), within men (Lk 17:21), set up in their hearts and consciences (Ro 4:17).

The temporal Messianic kingdom will be part of this world, will end with the final defeat of Satan, after which the first Earth, and all the firsts will pass away, and there will be a new heavens, and a new Earth, and the eternal Kingdom comes to the New Heavens and New Earth. The eternal temple will come down, and God will dwell among all men, and all men will be His people. (Revelation 21.)

The whole world is not the Kingdom of God until the new heaven and new earth, the home of righteousness (2 Pe 3:13).
The kingdom of God is now (Mt 12:28, Lk 11:20), within the hearts where he reigns and rules.

You should consider Zechariah. There is a lot more to eschatology. Zechariah's name means "Yahweh Remembers". This is actually in line with what Zechariah is about in that God remembers His people, and has not forgotten them. His Fathere name Berechiah means "Yahweh Blesses", because there are blessings in Zechariah's prophecies for the future Israel. His grandfather's name Iddo means "In Its Time". It is going to come. I have started a study on Zechariah, and it is DEEP. To start, I'm using a word for word exegetical study from John MacArthur. It's a very long commentary for 14 chapters of Zechariah. Chapter 1 took 60 pages. I am learning why so many people say the Old Testament is dead, and the New Testament is all there is. It's because they don't like what the Old Testament has to say about Israel.

To give an example, one person said if I believe in the Old Testament, then I'm Jewish. This is after telling him exactly what I am. He said it doesn't matter, my beliefs make me Jewish. His hatred of the Jews/Israel was rather palpable. And I have had plenty of similar experiences besides that one.

 

[Josheb]

So His Kingdom does not include Earth? If it does, then Earth is a reflection of Him, being His Kingdom. Or, it isn't His Kingdom yet, and will be to come, with the reflection of the nature of His kingdom found in the Old Testament. Now that truly is a reflection of His nature. And, according to Acts, believers are His ambassadors. Sent to/are in, a foreign land/kingdom (Earth) acting as witnesses/ambassadors of Christ.

How can God be God but not King?

What makes you think His kingdom here on earth does not currently reflect Him?

So, by what you wrote above, the nature of His Kingdom now is that there are people who have no idea who He is.

So what?

That means a King, but no power.

Unless their ignorance is His will. If you've assumed His will necessarily dictates X, Y, or Z then the onus is on you to prove that, not us to prove the contrary. AND you must prove it in a manner that does not contradict God being God. By the very rationale posted in Post 60, your position would mean there are many places on earth where God is not God. Forget about his being king, a God who isn't always sovereign everywhere is not a God.

The Kingdom, as presented in the Old Testament...

No, what you mean to say is the Kingdom as presented in the Old Testament according to my eschatology and kingdom theology.... because you clearly read the OT differently than those who understand the axiomatic nature of God being God and read the New Testament according to that truth. Keep in mind the Jews got a lot wrong, including the kingdom. Emphasizing a Jewish view of the Old Testament Judaizes Christianity and that is to be avoided, not embraced. We're Christians, not Jews. We reject Jewish eschatology and replace with Christ's eschatology. That is what makes us Christians.

• How can God be God if He is not also King?
• Other than the existence of non-believers. what makes you think His kingdom does not currently reflect Him?
• How can you make the argument made in Post 60 and not compromise God's divine sovereignty and infinite might?

Post 60 is very seriously flawed.

 

[EarlyActs]

Stop looking at the world and pray for understanding of the scriptures. Jesus is ruling in heaven right now, not on earth. His inauguration was the ascension when he defeated sin and death for those he died for. Believers are his foot soldiers so to speak, spreading the gospel to all nations. In this way he is gathering his sheep into the fold. When the last one comes through the narrow gate then he will return and utterly remove evil from the planet, forever, restoring all things.

The NT does not draw the distinction between heaven and earth, even though it is there. The reign of Christ is imperative; it is what should be right now. This is quite clear from Acts 2-4.

That means 2 things: 1, that there is ongoing opposition and 2, that there is no doubt whatsoever who deserves honor and obedience.

It has nothing to do with being in one location, or not, now-- nor in the future.

 

[Arial]

So His Kingdom does not include Earth? If it does, then Earth is a reflection of Him, being His Kingdom. Or, it isn't His Kingdom yet, and will be to come, with the reflection of the nature of His kingdom found in the Old Testament.

Ever read the words of the psalmist "His glory is over all the earth."?

Ever read Is 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

And the announcement of this fulfillment. Luke 2:9-11 And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with great fear. And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for Behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior who is Christ the Lord."

Have you read Psalm 47:7-8 For God is the King of all the earth; sing to him a psalm of praise. God reigns over the nations: God is seated on his holy throne.

Or Mark 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

The tunnel vision view of a literal thousand year reign of Christ as King on earth and its tunnel vision focus on national/ geographic Israel is like wearing blinders. What it fails to see is what God is doing for the entire creation in redemption. It fails deeply in understanding both Father and Son. It loses the magnificent impact of Christ and his glory. I know you will say that is not true, but remember---we don't know what we don't know, so that would just be words without understanding.

 

[Arial]

And, according to Acts, believers are His ambassadors. Sent to/are in, a foreign land/kingdom (Earth) acting as witnesses/ambassadors of Christ. So, by what you wrote above, the nature of His Kingdom now is that there are people who have no idea who He is.

You presented a false equivalency that is based on your interpretations of biblical truths and are not actually found in the Bible. "Land/kingdom (Earth)".


In Gen 1-2 we find that the earth is not a foreign land at all but the very land God created for us to live in a care for. The condition it is in is a result of man's fall into sin and God subjecting it to futility. But good news, Is 11, Rev 21.

How are the redeemed, redeemed, (by regeneration of the Holy Spirit placing them in Christ) and how are they able to be witnesses, (by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit,) and who are they ambassadors of? (Jesus.) And who is it that ambassadors serve? (a King.) And this is another thing that tunnel vision misses: since Jesus was crucified and resurrected and ascended over 2000 years ago, think of the number of people who have come to Him by this work of the Holy Spirit? How many are being brought into him today, at this moment, in however many minutes, and days, and years until he returns? What the King is doing now is sending this voice of his ambassadors out to all the world to gather his sheep into his flock. When the last have been gathered on the earth, he will bring the dead int Christ out of their graves, and those who remain alive will be changed, and he will gather them to himself as he descends and bring them with him, his triumphal procession. Evil will be judged and destroyed and there will be a new heaven and a new earth. Made new. And he will dwell with them and they will be his people.

As to Jesus reigning as King on earth and your statement that that would mean that he reigns while there are people who have no idea who he is, if he is King now, and presenting that as an impossibility; that old literal thousand year reign in geographic Israel before all things are restored----well that has the same thing in a much worse way. At least in the typical Dispensational pre-trib view, if kept consistently scriptural, which it isn't, has the glorified and the unglorified living along side each other, and a whole war being waged against the King.

 

[Arial]

The Kingdom, as presented in the Old Testament, the millennial kingdom, everyone knows who Jesus is, and He has all the power.

A millennial Kingdom is not presented in the OT. Can you show me how and where it is without using the NT? I say without using the NT because it is the NT that interprets the OT, not the other way around. A literal millennium typically goes to OT passages and uses them to interpret the NT.

The Kingdom, as presented in the Old Testament, the millennial kingdom, everyone knows who Jesus is, and He has all the power.

Then who is it that goes to war against that kingdom?

Absentee King who no most do not know/respect, or present King who everyone knows and respects. With punishment meted out to any who fail to follow His commands. Rather specific punishment.

Jesus isn't absent. Can God be absent?

If all know who Jesus is and serve him as King, who are those who don't follow his commands? Or are you saying it becomes works righteousness during this imaginary thousand year reign after Jesus already suffered and died to establish righteousness by faith alone?

 

[Eleanor]

They sought to make Jesus king for a free lunch. They did not actually offer him any kingdom. That is not the same as when the disciples asked Jesus for signs of when He will be revealed as king and enter into His Kingdom. (The greek word coming in the disciples question, what are the signs of your coming, is a word used for a king's official visit.) They were asking when Jesus would be revealed to be the King, and in Acts 1 they asked Jesus if He would now restore the Kingdom to Israel. He didn't say no. He didn't say there would be no kingdom in Israel. He said it wasn't for them to know the times and epochs established by the Father. In other words, the kingdom being restored to Israel is one of those times/epochs established by the Father.

The temporal Messianic kingdom will be part of this world, will end with the final defeat of Satan, after which the first Earth, and all the firsts will pass away, and there will be a new heavens, and a new Earth, and the eternal Kingdom comes to the New Heavens and New Earth. The eternal temple will come down, and God will dwell among all men, and all men will be His people. (Revelation 21.)

You should consider Zechariah. There is a lot more to eschatology. Zechariah's name means "Yahweh Remembers". This is actually in line with what Zechariah is about in that God remembers His people, and has not forgotten them. His Fathere name Berechiah means "Yahweh Blesses", because there are blessings in Zechariah's prophecies for the future Israel. His grandfather's name Iddo means "In Its Time". It is going to come. I have started a study on Zechariah, and it is DEEP. To start, I'm using a word for word exegetical study from John MacArthur. It's a very long commentary for 14 chapters of Zechariah. Chapter 1 took 60 pages. I am learning why so many people say the Old Testament is dead, and the New Testament is all there is. It's because they don't like what the Old Testament has to say about Israel.

To give an example, one person said if I believe in the Old Testament, then I'm Jewish. This is after telling him exactly what I am. He said it doesn't matter, my beliefs make me Jewish. His hatred of the Jews/Israel was rather palpable. And I have had plenty of similar experiences besides that one.

You did not address the authoritative NT teaching presented.

 

[EarlyActs]

Th

The NT does not draw the distinction between heaven and earth, even though it is there. The reign of Christ is imperative; it is what should be right now. This is quite clear from Acts 2-4.

That means 2 things: 1, that there is ongoing opposition and 2, that there is no doubt whatsoever who deserves honor and obedience.

It has nothing to do with being in one location, or not, now-- nor in the future.

The Lord's prayer, after all, is imperative: that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Not either/or, present not future, etc.

 

[EarlyActs]

A millennial Kingdom is not presented in the OT. Can you show me how and where it is without using the NT? I say without using the NT because it is the NT that interprets the OT, not the other way around. A literal millennium typically goes to OT passages and uses them to interpret the NT.

Then who is it that goes to war against that kingdom?

Jesus isn't absent. Can God be absent?

If all know who Jesus is and serve him as King, who are those who don't follow his commands? Or are you saying it becomes works righteousness during this imaginary thousand year reign after Jesus already suffered and died to establish righteousness by faith alone?

Notice that in the kingdom described by the OT, "it's walls are salvation; and praise is its gate."

If we have things like that confused, then, like the rabbi in 1948 (approx) when the King David Hotel was bombed, we will go looking for a stone labeled 'cornerstone' for rebuilding a stone temple.

 

[TMSO]

Ever read the words of the psalmist "His glory is over all the earth."?

Ever read Is 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

And the announcement of this fulfillment. Luke 2:9-11 And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with great fear. And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for Behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior who is Christ the Lord."

Have you read Psalm 47:7-8 For God is the King of all the earth; sing to him a psalm of praise. God reigns over the nations: God is seated on his holy throne.

Or Mark 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

The tunnel vision view of a literal thousand year reign of Christ as King on earth and its tunnel vision focus on national/ geographic Israel is like wearing blinders. What it fails to see is what God is doing for the entire creation in redemption. It fails deeply in understanding both Father and Son. It loses the magnificent impact of Christ and his glory. I know you will say that is not true, but remember---we don't know what we don't know, so that would just be words without understanding.

And what does Psalms have to say about Mark 16:19?

 

[TMSO]

You presented a false equivalency that is based on your interpretations of biblical truths and are not actually found in the Bible. "Land/kingdom (Earth)".

And you have presented, with idealistic amillennialism, that the Bible has to conform to your belief.

In Gen 1-2 we find that the earth is not a foreign land at all but the very land God created for us to live in a care for. The condition it is in is a result of man's fall into sin and God subjecting it to futility. But good news, Is 11, Rev 21.

Yes, Revelation 21, which presents explicitly the fact that that Earth was destroyed (passed away). Why? Corruption of sin will not be a notable part of God's eternal kingdom. In fact, it won't even be present.

How are the redeemed, redeemed, (by regeneration of the Holy Spirit placing them in Christ) and how are they able to be witnesses, (by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit,) and who are they ambassadors of? (Jesus.) And who is it that ambassadors serve? (a King.)

Yes, ambassadors serve a King in a foreign land. Hence, ambassadors. You won't find ambassadors of the king serving the king in his palace, but in other places.

And this is another thing that tunnel vision misses: since Jesus was crucified and resurrected and ascended over 2000 years ago, think of the number of people who have come to Him by this work of the Holy Spirit? How many are being brought into him today, at this moment, in however many minutes, and days, and years until he returns? What the King is doing now is sending this voice of his ambassadors out to all the world to gather his sheep into his flock. When the last have been gathered on the earth, he will bring the dead int Christ out of their graves, and those who remain alive will be changed, and he will gather them to himself as he descends and bring them with him, his triumphal procession. Evil will be judged and destroyed and there will be a new heaven and a new earth. Made new. And he will dwell with them and they will be his people.

But...but... that isn't at all what Revelation says. However, you have already determined by your belief how you will interpret it. I take Revelation 19-20 as written. And then I see that it is in line with passages in Zechariah, so I add those. And then I see that those are in line with passages from Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, Psalms, etc. and add them. It is the testimony of all scripture.

As to Jesus reigning as King on earth and your statement that that would mean that he reigns while there are people who have no idea who he is, if he is King now, and presenting that as an impossibility; that old literal thousand year reign in geographic Israel before all things are restored----well that has the same thing in a much worse way. At least in the typical Dispensational pre-trib view, if kept consistently scriptural, which it isn't, has the glorified and the unglorified living along side each other, and a whole war being waged against the King.

At least in your strawman dispensational pre-trib view... You do know that all who side with the beast are destroyed at Christ's return right? Who remains? Those who did not side with the beast. Those who did not worship the beast and his image, and take his mark. Believers in Christ who came to know Him during the tribulation, and survived until the end. Not to mention the remnant of Israel that is redeemed at the end through regeneration, the recognition of Christ, and faith. There is no difference in HOW people are saved, what is different is WHEN. You made a good argument for that, in that people are always being saved. The remnant of Israel has a date on God's calendar. That is the point of the whole book of Zechariah. The name of the grandfather "in its time".

 

[TMSO]

You did not address the authoritative NT teaching presented.

Shall we address your logical fallcy, or truth. Or, are you saying that God contradicted Himself?

 

[Arial]

And what does Psalms have to say about Mark 16:19?

Shouldn't you be asking what does Mark 16:19 have to say about Psalms? And which Psalm are you speaking of?

 

[Mr GLee]

Notice that in the kingdom described by the OT, "it's walls are salvation; and praise is its gate."

If we have things like that confused, then, like the rabbi in 1948 (approx) when the King David Hotel was bombed, we will go looking for a stone labeled 'cornerstone' for rebuilding a stone temple.

I would offer.

The two high walls separated the all Jewish men's only club "no girls allowed" . No Jewish woman and the other high wall no gentile men or women . They were not allowed to participate in the abomination of desolation (Kings in Israel) .The pagan foundation "out of sight out of mind" fools .No faith needed. The just look and beleive foundation of fools

The gospel explosion's Gentle relatives and family members could come as one Christian bride. First century reformation a time like never before or ever again .A great joy to all the nations of the world. A great tribulation to the Jew that was trusting his own dying flesh could profit for something?? Jesus said his dying flesh it profits for nada, zip, nothing.

The first century reformation had come the shadows of the ceremonial laws became sight .One new ceremonial (Glory Covering) law 1 Corinthian 11.

The word of God is compete with a warning not to add or subtract .

The end of using a outward historical Jew according to the dying flesh to represent a inward Jew born of the Spirit of Christ.

No prophecy ahead that has not occurred .Again sealed with 7 seal until the end of time

Romans 2:28-29King James Version28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Satan the identity thief (I will be like God) Legion makings a inward Jew and outward Jew one in the same . Taking away the unseen spiritual understanding called (the work of faith). In the end of the matter revealing they have no undestanding of faith as it is written (sola scriptura)

Remember Satan the father of lies the king of lying sign to wonder, wonder wonder or marvel after as if true prophecy (sola scriptura)

The same kind those who demanded a sign before they would exercise faith. . tempted the Son of man Jesus as if a circus seal . Perform some magic do a trick then when we see we it with our own et yes will believe for 1/2 a second.

The law. . John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

The witness to the breaking of it John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Kings in Israel the abomination of desolation

The first century reformation did come 2000 years ago ,.Jesus in Mathew 23 declaring it is desolate not will be.. . .when a few more bricks fall

.A portion remains as a idol image, wailing wall.

Temples built with stone and humans hand as the will of dying mankind, never had his approval .Believer have always been the temple not made with Human hands . . .the living one

No signs were given to wonder after . Jesus said it natural unconverted mankind that looks to wonder after a sign before they believe. Just as if true prohecy.

 

[TMSO]

Shouldn't you be asking what does Mark 16:19 have to say about Psalms? And which Psalm are you speaking of?

I am just pointing out a problem, which is that you are not considering the context of the whole scripture, just an isolated verse.

Psalm 110: "
The Lord says to my Lord:
“Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
2 The Lord will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”
3 Your people [a]will volunteer freely in the day of Your [b]power;
In [c]holy array, from the womb of the dawn,
[d]Your youth are to You as the dew."

Mark 16:19
"19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God."

And no, I should be asking what does Psalm 110 say about Mark 16:19. It gives meaning to Jesus sitting down at the right hand of God after ascending. The Father is the King, and Jesus is sitting at His right hand until the Father makes His(Jesus) enemies a footstool for His(Jesus) feet. And speaking to the future "The Lord will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion..."

Where else do we read about the Father and the Son and the Kingdom in the New Testament? I Corinthians 15.
"20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [h]Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all."

Note that the handing of the kingdom over to the God and Father is after His coming, which hasn't happened yet. Does this not speak to a temporal kingdom?

Also, then comes the end, an event. It is at that time He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father. However, the last enemy is not defeated until the end of Revelation 20.

"13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if [k]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

 

[Arial]

And you have presented, with idealistic amillennialism, that the Bible has to conform to your belief.

Have I? Or have I simply presented that view, giving you the opportunity to do something besides say it is wrong or accuse me of things I have not done?

Yes, Revelation 21, which presents explicitly the fact that that Earth was destroyed (passed away). Why? Corruption of sin will not be a notable part of God's eternal kingdom. In fact, it won't even be present.

The earth was made new. It was cleansed and all evil was destroyed. It does not change the fact that earth is not a foreign land---it is our home.

Yes, ambassadors serve a King in a foreign land. Hence, ambassadors. You won't find ambassadors of the king serving the king in his palace, but in other places.

Are you aware of the right now/not yet tension of redemption?

But...but... that isn't at all what Revelation says. However, you have already determined by your belief how you will interpret it. I take Revelation 19-20 as written. And then I see that it is in line with passages in Zechariah, so I add those. And then I see that those are in line with passages from Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, Psalms, etc. and add them. It is the testimony of all scripture.

I didn't say that is what Revelation said. This is what I said:

How are the redeemed, redeemed, (by regeneration of the Holy Spirit placing them in Christ) and how are they able to be witnesses, (by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit,) and who are they ambassadors of? (Jesus.) And who is it that ambassadors serve? (a King.) And this is another thing that tunnel vision misses: since Jesus was crucified and resurrected and ascended over 2000 years ago, think of the number of people who have come to Him by this work of the Holy Spirit? How many are being brought into him today, at this moment, in however many minutes, and days, and years until he returns? What the King is doing now is sending this voice of his ambassadors out to all the world to gather his sheep into his flock. When the last have been gathered on the earth, he will bring the dead int Christ out of their graves, and those who remain alive will be changed, and he will gather them to himself as he descends and bring them with him, his triumphal procession. Evil will be judged and destroyed and there will be a new heaven and a new earth. Made new. And he will dwell with them and they will be his people.

Now, address that instead of rabbit trailing and red herrings. The Bible does say everything I posted there. You are using OT passages to interpret NT passages. Use the NT to interpret the NT since it is interpreting the mysteries and things hidden for the time in the OT. When Rev says they (the resurrected dead in Christ and changed ones who remain alive at his coming we see in other NT passages) will be caught up to meet him in the air, and they will be with him forever; does it say they will continue up and he will continue down?

At least in your strawman dispensational pre-trib view..

Why is it a straw man? I clearly stated it as a typical Dispensational pre-trib view. And it is. That does not mean that all Dispensational pre-trib interpreters all believe exactly the same thing.

Those who did not worship the beast and his image, and take his mark. Believers in Christ who came to know Him during the tribulation, and survived until the end.

Give your definition of the tribulation and support it from NT scriptures outside of Revelation. My understanding of it---I will say again---is that it is this age. The NT Scriptures most notablly Jesus and Paul, does not speak of three ages, but two. This age and the age to come. It never speaks of another age of a thousand year duration and then the end. Never. This is an age of tribulation. Look around. Read the Book of Martyrs. Take a look at history beginning even in the first century within the NT. Look at the signs Jesus gave in Matt 24 and then says that is not the end but the beginning of birth pains.

Not to mention the remnant of Israel that is redeemed at the end through regeneration, the recognition of Christ, and faith.

Why do you say they have to become a sovereign nation again first? With Jesus returned as their King.

There is no difference in HOW people are saved, what is different is WHEN. You made a good argument for that, in that people are always being saved.

Well, there is a difference if geographic Israel and ethnic Jews have to endure the fire of seven years of the wrath of God poured out repeatedly, while all the rest of his people are caught up out of it. And then face the most horrific war of all as all those unregenerate people that surround them come against their King.

The remnant of Israel has a date on God's calendar.

So does the remnant of Gentiles. The question is, does each group have a different date? Or are God's people, God's people, no matter where they were born or lived, or who their ancestors were?

That is the point of the whole book of Zechariah.

Is it?

 

[Josheb]

And what does Psalms have to say about Mark 16:19?

That is backwards. It's supposed to be "What does Mark 16 say about the psalms?" We are Christians, not Jews. We are Christians discussing Christian eschatology, not Jews discussing Jewish eschatology or Christians Judaizing Christian eschatology.

The New Testament defines the Old, not the other way around.

 

[Arial]

I am just pointing out a problem, which is that you are not considering the context of the whole scripture, just an isolated verse.

If that is what you are doing, then say that is what you are doing. What you asked was what does Psalms say about Mark? And I pointed out, succinctly by asked that rather you should be asking "what does Mark say about Psalms? You did not even identify which psalm.

That aside, how in the world would you know what I am considering? Space and consideration limit us from exegeting the entire Bible.

Psalm 110: "
The Lord says to my Lord:
“Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
2 The Lord will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”
3 Your people [a]will volunteer freely in the day of Your [b]power;
In [c]holy array, from the womb of the dawn,
[d]Your youth are to You as the dew."

Mark 16:19
"19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God."

And no, I should be asking what does Psalm 110 say about Mark 16:19. It gives meaning to Jesus sitting down at the right hand of God after ascending.

Which came first? Psalm 110 or Mark 16:19? So not Psalm 110 is not showing light to Mark 16:19. Mark 16:19 is shedding light on what the psalmist saw and heard. It tells us that what David saw was fulfilled in Christ's ascension and that Jesus is that Lord who will have all his enemies under his feet. That he is ruling in the midst of his enemies now. His people are coming to him in faith now.

The Father is the King, and Jesus is sitting at His right hand until the Father makes His(Jesus) enemies a footstool for His(Jesus) feet. And speaking to the future "The Lord will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion..."

Which is to say God is the King---and Jesus is God don't you agree? And it was future when David wrote. Do you really think that Jesus is sitting down in a chair beside the throne doing nothing at the moment and since his ascension? That he is powerless? That he has not already conquered by his death and resurrection? His earthly work of purchasing redemption is finished. That is what it means by he sat down at the right hand of God. The judgement and utter destruction of the devil, death and Hades, is not yet. Because it isn't time.

Where else do we read about the Father and the Son and the Kingdom in the New Testament? I Corinthians 15.
"20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [h]Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all."

Note that the handing of the kingdom over to the God and Father is after His coming, which hasn't happened yet. Does this not speak to a temporal kingdom?

He hands over the kingdom to God who is the Father (not in addition to) means the full work of the covenant of redemption is complete. Jesus was sent to accomplish this, and he both did and will.

No, it does not speak of a temporal kingdom. It does not and it cannot. Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God wold come, he answered them, "Te kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!" or 'There!' for Behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you. (Luke 17:20-21)

Also, then comes the end, an event. It is at that time He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father. However, the last enemy is not defeated until the end of Revelation 20.

"13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if [k]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

And?

 

[Eleanor]

Shall we address your logical fallcy, or truth. Or, are you saying that God contradicted Himself?

Non-responsive. . .

 

[EarlyActs]

If that is what you are doing, then say that is what you are doing. What you asked was what does Psalms say about Mark? And I pointed out, succinctly by asked that rather you should be asking "what does Mark say about Psalms? You did not even identify which psalm.

That aside, how in the world would you know what I am considering? Space and consideration limit us from exegeting the entire Bible.

Which came first? Psalm 110 or Mark 16:19? So not Psalm 110 is not showing light to Mark 16:19. Mark 16:19 is shedding light on what the psalmist saw and heard. It tells us that what David saw was fulfilled in Christ's ascension and that Jesus is that Lord who will have all his enemies under his feet. That he is ruling in the midst of his enemies now. His people are coming to him in faith now.

Which is to say God is the King---and Jesus is God don't you agree? And it was future when David wrote. Do you really think that Jesus is sitting down in a chair beside the throne doing nothing at the moment and since his ascension? That he is powerless? That he has not already conquered by his death and resurrection? His earthly work of purchasing redemption is finished. That is what it means by he sat down at the right hand of God. The judgement and utter destruction of the devil, death and Hades, is not yet. Because it isn't time.

He hands over the kingdom to God who is the Father (not in addition to) means the full work of the covenant of redemption is complete. Jesus was sent to accomplish this, and he both did and will.

No, it does not speak of a temporal kingdom. It does not and it cannot. Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God wold come, he answered them, "Te kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!" or 'There!' for Behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you. (Luke 17:20-21)

And?

The Luke 17 especially shows us not to look for it in any familiar way; it is simply imperative. That means it is what is supposed to be. Categories of now, later, on earth, in heaven, Jew, Gentile, really don't help or answer this. Look at Acts 2--4 closer and you will see its presence and the resistance of evil to it.

And have a happy Christmas!