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An Overview of the Tribulation.

Marilyn C

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Any comments?
 
Any comments?
I have an issue with the label on Revelation chapter 17 & 18 as being a judgment on the "World System". That is not the entire world being judged in Revelation 17 & 18. It was specifically Old Jerusalem the "harlot" being judged for her unfaithfulness and her persecution and killing of the saints and prophets throughout the generations. Jesus made that point when He mourned over Jerusalem, saying, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them which are sent unto thee..." (Matthew 23:37). Christ said that Jerusalem and that specific first-century generation living at that time would be held accountable for all the righteous blood of those slain on the earth ever since Abel.

And I presume the "1-4 World Federations" which you have linked with Revelation chapter 6 & 7 are an interpretation of the 4 colored horses? Please correct me if I am misunderstanding your connection.
 
I have an issue with the label on Revelation chapter 17 & 18 as being a judgment on the "World System". That is not the entire world being judged in Revelation 17 & 18. It was specifically Old Jerusalem the "harlot" being judged for her unfaithfulness and her persecution and killing of the saints and prophets throughout the generations. Jesus made that point when He mourned over Jerusalem, saying, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them which are sent unto thee..." (Matthew 23:37). Christ said that Jerusalem and that specific first-century generation living at that time would be held accountable for all the righteous blood of those slain on the earth ever since Abel.

Hi 3 R,

Thank you for your comments. I hear what you say concerning Old Jerusalem being judged for her unfaithfulness and killing saints and prophets, however, looking closely at Rev. 17 & 18 we see that it involves more than that.

`the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication. ` (Rev. 17: 2)

`For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.` (Rev. 18: 3)

`And in her was found the blood of the prophets and saints, and ALL who were slain on the earth.` (Rev. 18: 24)


None of those descriptions apply in full to Old (or new) Jerusalem.
 
And I presume the "1-4 World Federations" which you have linked with Revelation chapter 6 & 7 are an interpretation of the 4 colored horses? Please correct me if I am misunderstanding your connection.

Yes, you read that correctly. God the Father said He would bring the Lord`s enemies to His footstool, for judgment, (Ps. 110: 1 Ps. 2: 1 - 3).

Then in Zech. 6: 5 we read of the four great spirits that God sends out into all the world to bring judgment,

while the prophet Daniel was given a description of these 4 great kingdom/Federations that God will judge just before He sets up His millennial kingdom rule. (Dan. 7)
 
None of those descriptions apply in full to Old (or new) Jerusalem.
But Jesus said that this accusation of killing the saints and the prophets applied to Old Jerusalem when He was mourning over the city in Matthew 23:34-37. This very same accusation was made against the "great city" in Revelation 17:6 and & 18:24. Same accusation - same city.

The title of the "kings of the earth" in Revelation 17:2 which you listed above is a scriptural designation for the high priesthood role in Jerusalem. There are quite a few texts in scripture which refer to the high priests by that title. Those "kings of the earth" high priests in Israel (during the first century especially) had more or less prostituted themselves by pandering to the Roman government in order to gain financial favors from them and to preserve the status quo. "We have no king but Caesar" was a clear sign that their loyalty to Rome was uppermost in their minds, even if it meant putting their own Messiah to death.

Also, when John used the term "the earth" (tes ges) in Revelation, more often than not he was referring specifically to the land of Israel and not the globe at large. Luke 21:23 also spoke of there being "great distress in the land (tes ges) and wrath upon this people" - meaning those people of Israel living in Judea in that first-century generation.

Every one of those verses you listed above were speaking in judgment of Jerusalem and its corrupt first-century high priesthood in particular.
 
Yes, you read that correctly. God the Father said He would bring the Lord`s enemies to His footstool, for judgment, (Ps. 110: 1 Ps. 2: 1 - 3).

Then in Zech. 6: 5 we read of the four great spirits that God sends out into all the world to bring judgment,

while the prophet Daniel was given a description of these 4 great kingdom/Federations that God will judge just before He sets up His millennial kingdom rule. (Dan. 7)
Yes amen revelation 18:24 ties directly to Matthew 23:35
 
Yes amen revelation 18:24 ties directly to Matthew 23:35
`And in her was found the blood of the prophets and saints, and ALL who were slain on the earth.` (Rev. 18: 24)

`That on you (Israel) may come ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD shed on the earth...` (Matt. 23: 35)


Big difference there - Rev. all who were slain, while Matt. is all the righteous slain.
 
`And in her was found the blood of the prophets and saints, and ALL who were slain on the earth.` (Rev. 18: 24)

`That on you (Israel) may come ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD shed on the earth...` (Matt. 23: 35)


Big difference there - Rev. all who were slain, while Matt. is all the righteous slain.
So wouldn’t all the righteous killed be apart of all killed?

one covers the other
 
I see here we have one premill ( for the most part, ) all in the future after the church is gone; one Preterist ( historical view ); when the truth is found in the amill idealist teachings!
 
I see here we have one premill ( for the most part, ) all in the future after the church is gone; one Preterist ( historical view ); when the truth is found in the amill idealist teachings!
I’m a partial preterist who is also amil
 
And I'm a Preterist posting here (but not from the Historicist position).
 
I have an issue with the label on Revelation chapter 17 & 18 as being a judgment on the "World System". That is not the entire world being judged in Revelation 17 & 18. It was specifically Old Jerusalem the "harlot" being judged for her unfaithfulness and her persecution and killing of the saints and prophets throughout the generations. Jesus made that point when He mourned over Jerusalem, saying, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them which are sent unto thee..." (Matthew 23:37). Christ said that Jerusalem and that specific first-century generation living at that time would be held accountable for all the righteous blood of those slain on the earth ever since Abel.

And I presume the "1-4 World Federations" which you have linked with Revelation chapter 6 & 7 are an interpretation of the 4 colored horses? Please correct me if I am misunderstanding your connection.
I see the tribulation as being chiefly for the Jews....but it will affect the world...as the world comes against the Jews.
 
I see the tribulation as being chiefly for the Jews....but it will affect the world...as the world comes against the Jews.
I, too, see the tribulation as being chiefly for the Jews - but only for the first-century generation. The "days of vengeance" came in judgment for the curse which the Jewish leaders had called down on their own heads and that of their children. "His blood be on us and on our children", was their oath. God heard and fulfilled His judgment for that oath - but for that generation only. His "vengeance" for the betrayal and murder of His Son was finished by the close of the AD 70 events.

But I also agree that tribulation was to affect the rest of the world also, to a lesser degree (of that first-century generation). That is why John warned the Philadelphian church that the hour of testing was "about to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10). Because the Jews were widely scattered in various locations throughout the Roman empire, a judgment of vengeance for that blood oath on them and their children would, of necessity, also have to extend into those far-flung locations as well.

In addition, the guilt for putting Christ to death lay partly on the Roman governance who authorized it. Christ told Pilate, "he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin". That meant Rome in the person of Pilate the Roman governor shared some of the sin for Christ's death, as well as the Jews who had wickedly conspired to bring this about. So, punishment for that lesser sin committed by Roman authority also fell on that first-century generation of the Roman empire.

Josephus is one who recorded some of the tumults, wars, and natural disasters in the Roman empire during those closing years of AD 66-70. "Terrible even in peace", was the way Josephus described that period of time.
 
The problem I have with the Preterist is that much of what has been prophesied in Rev. hasn't happened yet.
John told us how to interpret his visions in his introduction as well as in his conclusion. Everything prophetic of future things "about to be hereafter" (Rev. 1:19) between Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:10 John said were "at hand", or present for that time when John was writing those visions.

The only exceptions are the prophecies which the 7 thunders uttered in Revelation 10:4, which John was forbidden to write down, and which were "sealed up" for times in the far future to John's immediate situation.

You either believe John's own stated time limitations for his visions, or you don't.
 
I, too, see the tribulation as being chiefly for the Jews - but only for the first-century generation.
I disagree. As I have stated previously what Revelation describes hasn't happened yet.

I would say what happened in 70 Ad was a type of pre-fulfillment....but not the main event.
 
John told us how to interpret his visions in his introduction as well as in his conclusion. Everything prophetic of future things "about to be hereafter" (Rev. 1:19) between Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:10 John said were "at hand", or present for that time when John was writing those visions.

The only exceptions are the prophecies which the 7 thunders uttered in Revelation 10:4, which John was forbidden to write down, and which were "sealed up" for times in the far future to John's immediate situation.

You either believe John's own stated time limitations for his visions, or you don't.
No, that's YOUR interpretation. As I have said...what is mentioned in Rev is still future. We have not seen the destruction of 1/3 of the plants, seas etc...We have not seen the mark of the beast....we have not seen the two witnesses...and many other things described in Revelations.
 
No, that's YOUR interpretation. As I have said...what is mentioned in Rev is still future. We have not seen the destruction of 1/3 of the plants, seas etc...We have not seen the mark of the beast....we have not seen the two witnesses...and many other things described in Revelations.
It's not my interpretation. It's John's. Those things you listed have all been historically fulfilled in real time with dates included. Subjects for a different post, of course.
 
It's not my interpretation. It's John's.
It's your interpretation about what you think John is saying.
Those things you listed have all been historically fulfilled in real time with dates included. Subjects for a different post, of course.
in the "overview of the tribulation"....historical events past present and future events as they relate to the Book of Revelation are on topic.

As I have said the events mentioned in Revelation haven't happened yet....especially in the first century.
 
It's your interpretation about what you think John is saying.
John's language is very specific. A prophecy which is "AT HAND" is already present in the days of those who first read that prophecy. God Himself gave a lengthy definition of this "AT HAND" term all the way back in Ezekiel 12:21-28. "At hand" prophecies are fulfilled in the days of the ones who first receive that prophecy. God said they are not "prolonged" into "times that are far off". God speaks the "at hand" prophecy", and then performs it in the days of those who are first given that prophecy.

I am obligated to go with God's own definitions, even though I may be thought a fool.
 
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