An Overview of the Tribulation.

[Marilyn C]

John's language is very specific. A prophecy which is "AT HAND" is already present in the days of those who first read that prophecy. God Himself gave a lengthy definition of this "AT HAND" term all the way back in Ezekiel 12:21-28. "At hand" prophecies are fulfilled in the days of the ones who first receive that prophecy. God said they are not "prolonged" into "times that are far off". God speaks the "at hand" prophecy", and then performs it in the days of those who are first given that prophecy.

I am obligated to go with God's own definitions, even though I may be thought a fool.

What is at hand is the first unveiling of Christ as He is known in the heavenly realms. And that is the first vision, Christ the Head of the Body in the midst of the candlesticks. The other unveilings follow on.

 

[CrowCross]

John's language is very specific. A prophecy which is "AT HAND" is already present in the days of those who first read that prophecy. God Himself gave a lengthy definition of this "AT HAND" term all the way back in Ezekiel 12:21-28. "At hand" prophecies are fulfilled in the days of the ones who first receive that prophecy. God said they are not "prolonged" into "times that are far off". God speaks the "at hand" prophecy", and then performs it in the days of those who are first given that prophecy.

I am obligated to go with God's own definitions, even though I may be thought a fool.

Apparently your take on "at hand" isn't quite like it is. As I have said before and have to repeat it to you yet again....there is many things in Rev that have not occured yet. Period.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Apparently your take on "at hand" isn't quite like it is. As I have said before and have to repeat it to you yet again....there is many things in Rev that have not occured yet. Period.

Our hermeneutics and interpretations should not be driven by our perceptions of whether we think something has been fulfilled or not. They should be based to begin with on audience relevance, context, the language itself, and scriptures compared with scriptures, and proceed from there to interpret a passage.

When you base your interpretations first of all on your own knowledge of history (which can be limited, flawed, or biased), that is letting the cart drive the horse.

What is at hand is the first unveiling of Christ as He is known in the heavenly realms. And that is the first vision, Christ the Head of the Body in the midst of the candlesticks. The other unveilings follow on.

John included ALL of the revealed visions of "the things that are about to be hereafter" within those "at hand" time-relevant parameters in his introduction and conclusion for Revelation. ALL of them. Only the "sealed up" visions of Revelation 10:4 were deliberately excluded by God from taking place in John's days. Those "sealed up" prophecies included the future for us as well.

 

[CrowCross]

Our hermeneutics and interpretations should not be driven by our perceptions of whether we think something has been fulfilled or not. They should be based to begin with on audience relevance, context, the language itself, and scriptures compared with scriptures, and proceed from there to interpret a passage.

When you base your interpretations first of all on your own knowledge of history (which can be limited, flawed, or biased), that is letting the cart drive the horse.


John included ALL of the revealed visions of "the things that are about to be hereafter" within those "at hand" time-relevant parameters in his introduction and conclusion for Revelation. ALL of them. Only the "sealed up" visions of Revelation 10:4 were deliberately excluded by God from taking place in John's days. Those "sealed up" prophecies included the future for us as well.

It appears your one and only interpretation of what "at hand" means is a bit skewed. YOU SHOULD REVIST IT....as what is spoken of in Rev hasn't happened yet. Do you understand that?

Now, if I'm wrong, then show me where I'm wrong by presenting historical evidence describing each event.

 

[Marilyn C]

John included ALL of the revealed visions of "the things that are about to be hereafter" within those "at hand" time-relevant parameters in his introduction and conclusion for Revelation. ALL of them. Only the "sealed up" visions of Revelation 10:4 were deliberately excluded by God from taking place in John's days. Those "sealed up" prophecies included the future for us as well.

I agree and was going to post more on that topic. So thank you for bringing it up. The 4 unveilings of the glorified Lord Jesus also includes what He is doing.

 

[3 Resurrections]

It appears your one and only interpretation of what "at hand" means is a bit skewed. YOU SHOULD REVIST IT....as what is spoken of in Rev hasn't happened yet. Do you understand that?

This is not my interpretation of what an "at hand" prophecy means. It is God's, as found in what He told Ezekiel to pass on. I already have revisited this language many, many times before. What you are doing is saying, "Well, I don't believe those things in Revelation have happened yet, so that means "at hand" doesn't mean what God said it did." This is letting your own impressions drive your hermeneutics instead of letting scripture's language speak for itself.

Now, if I'm wrong, then show me where I'm wrong by presenting historical evidence describing each event.

I certainly don't mind covering the historical evidence point by point, but since this involves so many subjects, I would suggest your picking just one or two to start with. Perhaps you could introduce this in a separate post, since @Marilyn C's post is more of a generalization of Revelation's visions concerning the tribulation.

 

[CrowCross]

This is not my interpretation of what an "at hand" prophecy means. It is God's, as found in what He told Ezekiel to pass on. I already have revisited this language many, many times before. What you are doing is saying, "Well, I don't believe those things in Revelation have happened yet, so that means "at hand" doesn't mean what God said it did." This is letting your own impressions drive your hermeneutics instead of letting scripture's language speak for itself.

No, no, noooooh.....The problem is not with what God said...but what you said God said it says.

I certainly don't mind covering the historical evidence point by point, but since this involves so many subjects, I would suggest your picking just one or two to start with. Perhaps you could introduce this in a separate post, since @Marilyn C's post is more of a generalization of Revelation's visions concerning the tribulation.

Let me remind you again....there are events mentioned in Revelation that have not happened yet. Perhaps you could cover the historical evidence point by point concerning this:

Revelation 6...start here.
The 4 horsemen have not arrived yet. Seal 1-4.

I would say that the foundation that will allow Rev 6:1-8 to happen is currently being established.

You need to show in history after Rev was written where and when the 4 horsemen arrived and did what the bible says they will do.

 

[EarlyActs]

No, no, noooooh.....The problem is not with what God said...but what you said God said it says.


Let me remind you again....there are events mentioned in Revelation that have not happened yet. Perhaps you could cover the historical evidence point by point concerning this:

Revelation 6...start here.
The 4 horsemen have not arrived yet. Seal 1-4.

I would say that the foundation that will allow Rev 6:1-8 to happen is currently being established.

You need to show in history after Rev was written where and when the 4 horsemen arrived and did what the bible says they will do.

The question that must be addressed is the truth of page 1. It says twice that these things were about to happen, and said in a way to comfort those readers then. I do not know why the reader would automatically fly out X000 years upon reading that. Plus we get 7 'waves' of material in chs 2-3 about actual western Asian churches and their situations. So by that time we have a pretty sense of what "you" means.

After that, a person would need to get as familiar as possible with what actually happened in the 1st century. Take for ex., major war. There was a massive buildup on the Euphrates that made Rome nervous. Of course, there was also the total burning of Israel and destruction of Jerusalem. See for ex., Barnett, BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE NT, IVP.

 

[EarlyActs]

Hi 3 R,

Thank you for your comments. I hear what you say concerning Old Jerusalem being judged for her unfaithfulness and killing saints and prophets, however, looking closely at Rev. 17 & 18 we see that it involves more than that.

`the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication. ` (Rev. 17: 2)

`For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.` (Rev. 18: 3)

`And in her was found the blood of the prophets and saints, and ALL who were slain on the earth.` (Rev. 18: 24)

None of those descriptions apply in full to Old (or new) Jerusalem.

By being in the center of the land connection between 3 continents, I can see why it would be described as such. Also the blood of the prophets is not found in other countries...

It is important not to be too brittle with the language. I did an 'inventory' once and by the time I got to the 10th judgement event (out of the 21), there was -275% of the earth left. You read that correctly. It's called "overkill," lol. This type of literature is dramatic for effect, not for "exact" prediction.

Find me a planet that can survive having a star come down on it and survive. I think the smallest known star is some 1000x the earth... It would be difficult.

 

[CrowCross]

The question that must be addressed is the truth of page 1. It says twice that these things were about to happen, and said in a way to comfort those readers then. I do not know why the reader would automatically fly out X000 years upon reading that. Plus we get 7 'waves' of material in chs 2-3 about actual western Asian churches and their situations. So by that time we have a pretty sense of what "you" means.

After that, a person would need to get as familiar as possible with what actually happened in the 1st century. Take for ex., major war. There was a massive buildup on the Euphrates that made Rome nervous. Of course, there was also the total burning of Israel and destruction of Jerusalem. See for ex., Barnett, BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE NT, IVP.

I would imagine if what is recorded in the book of Revelation already happened....history would show how it did in a very easy fashion. Recorded history has failed to do so...and the reason why is because Revelation is future. Not to distant future.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You need to show in history after Rev was written where and when the 4 horsemen arrived and did what the bible says they will do.

Okay, the 4 horsemen it is then...the first 4 seals which were opened for fulfillment in that first century.

If I am reading @Marilyn C's original post correctly, the proposal is that these are "1-4 World Federations". I would disagree with that.

#1 - The First white horse with a crown given unto Him represents Jesus Christ - the same white horse rider which again appears in Revelation 19:11. The "crown given unto Him" is the crown of Jesus Christ's Great High Priesthood, given to Him by God at His resurrection-day ascension.

As this white horse rider, Christ, "went forth conquering and to conquer", this was the surge in evangelism throughout all the nations in those early church years. "We are more than conquerors through Him that loved us", Paul said in Romans 8:37. Christ had promised that the gospel would be preached throughout the entire known world, and then the end would come (Matthew 24:14). Paul announced that this had been accomplished by then in Colossians 2:6 & 23, written around AD 62. "...the truth of the gospel; which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit...". "...the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven: whereof I Paul am made a minister..."

# 2 - The Second red horse rider was authorized to "take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another". This was civil war conditions in the land of Israel. Christ had already said that "from henceforth" during His earthly ministry, this civil discord would arise and increase, even among families (Luke 12:51-53). This rising internal discord in the nation of Israel was due to the cause of the Zealot insurrectionists (such as Barabbas) who hated their Roman overlords and any Roman sympathizers in Judea who were willing to submit to them. The typical weapon which the Zealot sicarii carried was a "sicae" - a short curved sword easily concealed in their garments. This was the "great sword" which the red horse rider carried, and the Zealots were more than willing to wield this sword against their own countrymen who wanted to keep peace with Rome to preserve the status quo. The Zealots wanted to start a war with Rome, and they got it in AD 66.

#3 - The Third black horse rider with balances for weighing foodstuffs represents the shortage of basic wheat and barley supplies in Judea. We know that Agabus and other prophets in Acts 11:27-30 had predicted "great dearth" throughout all the world, which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar, for which the Antioch believers sent relief by Barnabas and Paul to the brethren in Judea. Famously, around AD 46-47, Queen Helene of Adiabene who had converted to Judaism also sent large amounts of grain and figs food relief from Egypt to Jerusalem. This was part of the fulfillment of Christ's prediction in Matthew 24:7 that there would be famines in different places in the time approaching the Great Tribulation years for Judea (from AD 66-70).

#4 - The Fourth pale horse rider is actually named as being "Death", with "Hell" (Hades - the grave) following with him. The means by which this rider killed the fourth part of those in the earth (tes ges - the land of Israel) was the sword, hunger, death, and "by the beasts of the earth" (which were the Judean Land Beast of Revelation 13, and the Judean Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17).

This is not the first time that "Death and Hell" (Hades - the grave) would descend upon Judea. Back in the time of the Babylonian invasion, God foretold the rulers of Jerusalem in Isaiah 28:14-19 that their covenant with Death and with Hell would not stand; that when both of these had passed through, they would be overcome by them. That was Jerusalem's first death under the Babylonians by 586 BC.

The "second death" (aka, the Lake of Fire) for Jerusalem occurred when Death and Hell (Hades - the grave) had again come to destroy the city and its inhabitants down to its foundations. The besieged city of Jerusalem's inhabitants died in record numbers under the most horrific conditions of extreme famine, plagued by their own Zealot countrymen who preyed upon their own fellow-citizens with the sword. Pestilence was rife in the city with the mounds of unburied dead accumulating or being thrown over the wall into the Hinnom Valley.

The Judean Land Beast and the Judean Scarlet Beast were both thrown alive into the city of Jerusalem together at the beginning of the war in AD 66, in competition with each other. The Land Beast represented the moderate cause of Judea's religious leadership who had been appointed by Roman authority. The Judean Scarlet Beast was headed up by the Zealot leaders who hated those who had collaborated with Rome. They "hated the whore" that Jerusalem had become in association with Roman authority, and fought against her - burning her with fire, making her desolate and naked, and eating her flesh - even before Rome as the Sea Beast arrived in the spring of AD 70 to finish them off.

There are no less than three Beasts in Revelation - not just two. The Sea Beast with its then-current phase of Roman leadership, the two-horned Land Beast of Judea's religious leadership, and the final Judean Scarlet Beast of an independent kingdom of Israel, re-established briefly once more under the Zealot's rebellion in AD 66. None of these three Beasts exist anymore.

 

[EarlyActs]

I would imagine if what is recorded in the book of Revelation already happened....history would show how it did in a very easy fashion. Recorded history has failed to do so...and the reason why is because Revelation is future. Not to distant future.

Most of it is there in the 1st cent. But we must also realize that material like the Rev was called 'apocalyptic' and was often dramatic for the sake of effect. Numbers were chosen because Judaic connection, for ex., the 144K. I referred to one major event--a military buildup on the Euphrates as one example. There are many things that can refer to those times.

 

[Mr GLee]

What is at hand is the first unveiling of Christ as He is known in the heavenly realms. And that is the first vision, Christ the Head of the Body in the midst of the candlesticks. The other unveilings follow on.

View attachment 602

Prophecy at hand the living abiding word

I would think seeing God finished all the work in 6 days and rested on the 7th . It would seem to give understanding calling it at hand seasons .

The word he speaks are not time sensitive . Like the living word in 2 Timothy 2:15 a loving comandmen study to show ourselves approved writen beforehand.

Luke 1:20And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

He controls the seasons of our lives

Daily bread the 24 hour season

 

[CrowCross]

#1 - The First white horse with a crown given unto Him represents Jesus Christ -

I can stop you right there.....that horse represents the anti-christ.

# 2 - The Second red horse rider was authorized to "take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another". This was civil war conditions in the land of Israel.

Civil war in New Jersey size Israel didn't take peace from the earth

I'd go on...but I'm not going to waste my time with your cut and paste answers.

 

[CrowCross]

Most of it is there in the 1st cent. But we must also realize that material like the Rev was called 'apocalyptic' and was often dramatic for the sake of effect. Numbers were chosen because Judaic connection, for ex., the 144K. I referred to one major event--a military buildup on the Euphrates as one example. There are many things that can refer to those times.

When did this happen?

12And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I can stop you right there.....that horse represents the anti-christ.

The Antichrist was never to be given a crown as the white horse rider Christ was when He was made High Priest in heaven. The Antichrist was only to "exalt himself" with his own self-importance (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

Civil war in New Jersey size Israel didn't take peace from the earth

John's term for "the earth" is "tes ges" - not "oikoumene" or "kosmos", which have a global connotation to them. "Tes ges" refers most often to "the land", which meant the promised land of Israel to an Israelite.

I'd go on...but I'm not going to waste my time with your cut and paste answers.

I'm afraid I have never "cut and pasted" a single thing in my time on my desk-top computer or cell phone. I'm pretty computer illiterate, unlike my children and grandchildren.

 

[Mr GLee]

I can stop you right there.....that horse represents the anti-christ.

White represents purity the righteousness of Christ Christ . It;s what the saints are clothed in.

 

[Mr GLee]

I would offer sorry for length .The 666 that I keep on the back burner is not image one can view with there eyes or touch with hand.

No sign was given to the evil generation that seek to marvel after sign before they will trust God . We have the perfect book of prophecy .Yet many are waiting for signs before they can move on.

666 is not a literal number. We can know that because it is the number (not numbers of man )a beast of the field. Mankind created on the 6th day . . . not 666 men or the weight of gold or a sign that would cause a siege from worldly goods . Satan is already the god of this world in that way .

The god of this world began in the garden look at lust after by beauty why believe a God not seen? Surly you will not die .

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

The famine or siege will be for hearing the gospel.. . Not the things of this world as if the kingdom did come by observing the temporal corrupted.

Proverbs informs us to buy the truth of God and with it get his understanding

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

666 represent man. Hand . . .as will, forehead . . . thoughts or memory

One thing I have been looking at is the word "mark" and how it is used. It is not the same word as "sign";

Satan the father of lying “signs” that cause men to wonder (not believe) or to marvel rather than believe prophecy . no new is needed.

Satan would have mankind believe it is all one in the same a mark or sign they have different uses and are not used together..... Like for instance no “mark of the sign” that one marvels or seeks after.

Jesus spoke to Nicodemus one that did seek after a sign before he would trust in a unseen God. Jesus informed him to not wonder or marvel but rather believe the words of prophecy (sola scriptura)

We walk or hear God's understanding by faith the unseen eternal things of God, Prophecy, not signs.

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Studying the word “mark” beginning in Revelation below. Notice the father of lies causes the mark of someone, The mark it has something to do with mankind deceived by the father of lies

Mark = boundry. . border. . limit

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark ( not image) in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Genesis 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

It would seem John was given the understanding and not left wondering "when were why how ?" . Like most doctrines they are found in Genesis it include the mark. Again the bible defines the word mark and the word image = artificial representation that looks like a person or thing.

Job 7:20 I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?

Job 10:14 If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity.

Galatians 6 :17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks (not a tattoos) of the Lord Jesus.

Again not magic markers or hidden electronic chips as images.

The foundation of the matter. . . God sends his apostle Abel as a prophet. Satan the father of lies a murder from that very beginning.

Cain saw no value in the gospel. . the unseen eternal things of God he sold his firstborn birthright to silence the gospel . Esau used in the same way sold his birthrate for a cup of hairy goat soup also seeing no value in walking by faith after the unseen things of God .

Cain seduced by the father of lies buried Abel under. . the Pagan tradition . .fools no God in their hearts. . Out of sight (keep the God of the bible) out of mind.

Notice the work load was increased “tillest the ground”, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength. Not being yoked with Christ like Abel the work was too much and he tried to bargain for death (, My punishment is greater than I can bear.) if they find me a dead man walking they will kill me.

Then comes the true mark of the beast not an idol image what the eyes see .God declares Cain a lifer with no early parole. . Suffer the pangs of hell not yoked with Christ till his last breath.

The mark of his word is clearly what he says comes to pass . . . . . let there be and it was God good.

Genisis 4: 7_14 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Buy the truth get His understanding. Do not sell it as an image rather than a mark.

 

[CrowCross]

The Antichrist was never to be given a crown as the white horse rider Christ was when He was made High Priest in heaven. The Antichrist was only to "exalt himself" with his own self-importance (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

John's term for "the earth" is "tes ges" - not "oikoumene" or "kosmos", which have a global connotation to them. "Tes ges" refers most often to "the land", which meant the promised land of Israel to an Israelite.

I'm afraid I have never "cut and pasted" a single thing in my time on my desk-top computer or cell phone. I'm pretty computer illiterate, unlike my children and grandchildren.

The first of the 4 horsemen is not Christ Jesus.

In all of history, especially after Rev was written there is no one who fulfilled that position as of yet.

 

[CrowCross]

White represents purity the righteousness of Christ Christ . It;s what the saints are clothed in.

And satan appears as an angel of light. What's your point?