Adam's Sin Imputed To Mankind

[Eleanor]

Your "biblical demonstration" is non-responsive to the bible.

Assertion without Biblical demonstration.

Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

How, given what Paul says there, can you, claim that the trespass affected the whole of humanity universally, but the free gift affected only a few previously selected individuals? Paul says there that the free gift was much more efficacious that the trespass. You obviously reject that.

Does not address Biblical demonstration of post #51.

 

[CrowCross]

If we sin because we have a sin nature, then why did Adam, who you say didn't have a sin nature, sin?

There is a difference between having the ability to sin....and having a sin nature where you WILL sin.

 

[jeremiah1five]

What exactly is it that you think I am saying that makes you post this to me, as though I do not know what imputation is?

Arial: "And all men are condemned by Adam's sin as all meet death even before the Mosaic covenant Law was given."
---------------------
You say "we are sinners because we sin" but above you imply it was the act of sin by which we are sinners. You're saying two opposing positions.
That's why I ask.
The Doctrine of Imputation is not referring to "acts" of sin but the sin nature Adam and the woman were created with. They were created sinful, or as the word sin [harmatia] is defined, "missing the mark."
What is that "mark" they missed?
The glory of God.
There was nothing deific about them. They possessed no Deific Nature of God nor any Deific Attributes of God. This means they were created fall[en] short of the glory of God.
The word is "sin."

What the Doctrine of Imputation is as described in 2 Cr. 5:21 is a "nature swap" not an "act" swap.
Christ takes our sinful nature and we take His Righteous Nature.
If He was taking only our "acts" of sin then one of the things that happened to Him on the cross wouldn't have happened, and that is His separation from His Father and His cry "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me"?
God has been long-suffering with Israel's sin and disobedience for a long, long time - as well as the sin and disobedience of Gentile Christians.

Christ didn't die for our "acts" of sin, as a sinless man He was imputed our sin nature. That's what killed Him. "Acts" of sin wouldn't kill Him, but if He was to take our sin nature as a sinless man then that would definitely kill Him and cause a breach with His Father.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Neither.

We sin because we have a sin nature....a nature or propensity to sin which entered into Adams future progeny when Adam fell.

There you go, "we sin because we are sinners." Sin comes from within. It is possessive. We own it. It is our nature, a nature created sinful and fallen short of the glory of God.
There is only ONE God.
There is NONE like Him.
He gives His glory to NO ONE.
If all three above are true, and they are, then Adam and the woman were created sinful ["missing the mark"], fallen short of the glory of God.

If Adam didn't fall then mankind would not have a sin nature.
To answer your question "we sin because we are sinners."...is the best of the two answers. Do you know why?

Yes, I supplied my answer: God created us sinful, but you don't agree.
That's fine.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Nah! ! ! The physical body is unchanged by the spiritual death. The death of the physical body is an attribute of creation. All things physical are time limited by the design of creation. And the spirit is not produced by procreation; rather it is the creation of God for each individual.

Nonsense. The physical body was most definitely affected by losing close fellowship with God's life-sustaining presence, as pictured by the lost Tree of Life connection. Adam's physical body suffered the side effects of losing that fellowship. The possibility of the as-yet-sinless Adam dying by making a choice to sin turned into the inevitable result of his body dying because of his choice. "Dying, ye shall die" was the promised result of disobedience, which came true.

But I would agree with you that the spirit originates as a spotless creation coming from God, given to each individual at conception. Unfortunately, the instant that spirit becomes united with that fallen human descendent of Adam at conception, it becomes corrupted by association with it. This is what required the necessity of the virgin birth for Christ. Christ did not come as the seed of Adam, but uniquely as the Seed of the woman.

 

[CrowCross]

There you go, "we sin because we are sinners." Sin comes from within. It is possessive. We own it. It is our nature, a nature created sinful and fallen short of the glory of God.
There is only ONE God.
There is NONE like Him.
He gives His glory to NO ONE.
If all three above are true, and they are, then Adam and the woman were created sinful ["missing the mark"], fallen short of the glory of God.

Yes, I supplied my answer: God created us sinful, but you don't agree.
That's fine.

If you want to say.....anything but God is sinful....therefor Adam and Eve were created sinful....go for it. Thing is, it's not really biblical.

Basically your saying if Adam didn't eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.....we would still need a savior. I'm not buying that.

 

[Arial]

Arial: "And all men are condemned by Adam's sin as all meet death even before the Mosaic covenant Law was given."
---------------------

I know that.

You say "we are sinners because we sin" but above you imply it was the act of sin by which we are sinners. You're saying two opposing positions

No I didn't. This is what I said:

We sin because we are sinners. In Adam, that is what we are. That is the imputation.

 

[Arial]

There was nothing deific about them. They possessed no Deific Nature of God nor any Deific Attributes of God. This means they were created fall[en] short of the glory of God.

Incredibly off the mark. We were created in the image and likeness of God. That simply means we are in some ways similar to Him---we are a rational being----but in no ways exactly like Him. As that image and likeness and crowned with glory, (Psalm 8:3-5) we were meant to reflect His glory, not be His glory. Sin made that impossible for us to do. That is where we fall short.

Christ takes our sinful nature and we take His Righteous Nature.

The imputation of our sins on Christ (not in Christ) did not give Him our sinful nature. He paid their penalty in our place, and by being put in Christ His righteousness is counted as our own, which means spiritually speaking we do not have that sin nature anymore that came from Adam. Taken out of Adam, reborn by God, in Christ. At the end of days we will also put on incorruptibility.

Christ didn't die for our "acts" of sin, as a sinless man He was imputed our sin nature. That's what killed Him. "Acts" of sin wouldn't kill Him, but if He was to take our sin nature as a sinless man then that would definitely kill Him and cause a breach with His Father.

What is the penalty for sin? Death. Jesus died because He was hung on a cross. It was our death that He took in our place, the one we deserved because of our sins. Even though we were born a sinful being by virtue of being in Adam, it is our sins that must also meet their just penalty. Christ took our penalty and carried our sins with Him into the jaws of death, and came out alive, and we with Him. He did not take on our sin nature or He would not have survived the fire.

 

[jeremiah1five]

If you want to say.....anything but God is sinful....therefor Adam and Eve were created sinful....go for it. Thing is, it's not really biblical.

Basically your saying if Adam didn't eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.....we would still need a savior. I'm not buying that.

I didn't say God was sinful. I said God created man (Adam) sinful.
There is ONLY ONE PERSON that can stand before a Holy God and that is a Holy Son.
Everything and everyone else fall short of His glory.
There is only ONE God.
There is NONE like Him.
He gives His glory to NO ONE.
Now, with these truths in front of you what is the 'make-up' of the first man?
Holy? God is Holy and He gives His glory to NO ONE.
Righteous? God is Righteous and He gives His glory to NO ONE.
Sinless? God is Sinless and He gives His glory to NO ONE.
Man is of the earth earthy.
In order for the first man to stand before a Holy God he would have to be God Himself but he's not. Thus, he is fallen short of God's glory.
AND if Adam and the woman didn't eat from the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil, they would have died eventually for they were not eternal. God is Eternal and this glory He gives to NO ONE. And if they were not eternal then they fall short of God's total glory.
The ONLY Person that can stand blameless before a Holy God is a Holy Son.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Jn. 8:43.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I know that.

No I didn't. This is what I said:

That is not the imputation.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Incredibly off the mark. We were created in the image and likeness of God. That simply means we are in some ways similar to Him---we are a rational being----but in no ways exactly like Him. As that image and likeness and crowned with glory, (Psalm 8:3-5) we were meant to reflect His glory, not be His glory. Sin made that impossible for us to do. That is where we fall short.

The imputation of our sins on Christ (not in Christ) did not give Him our sinful nature. He paid their penalty in our place, and by being put in Christ His righteousness is counted as our own, which means spiritually speaking we do not have that sin nature anymore that came from Adam. Taken out of Adam, reborn by God, in Christ. At the end of days we will also put on incorruptibility.

What is the penalty for sin? Death. Jesus died because He was hung on a cross. It was our death that He took in our place, the one we deserved because of our sins. Even though we were born a sinful being by virtue of being in Adam, it is our sins that must also meet their just penalty. Christ took our penalty and carried our sins with Him into the jaws of death, and came out alive, and we with Him. He did not take on our sin nature or He would not have survived the fire.

Then I see you do not understand the Doctrine of Imputation.

Here it is one more time:

21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin;
that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Cor. 5:21.

For He made Him SIN for us

That we might be MADE the righteousness of God.

This is the Doctrine of Imputation. It's a nature-swap.
Christ takes our sin nature, and we take His righteous nature.

Christ did not die for our "acts" of sin.
He died for our human nature that was created fallen short of the glory of God because that's the only way man can be created. God did not reduplicate any aspect of His glory in man.
And the image of God is not Adam. The image of God is Christ.
And there is no better image of a Father than a Son.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Prior to the fall Adam had no sin nature, or in other words a proclivity to sin.

And yet, when "Temptation" happened, according to the rules in James 1:14,15, Eve, and then Adam "without the benefit of a "Sin nature" fell in exactly the same fashion WE ALL DO. Eve, and Adam were "Drawn away by their OWN LUST (Gen 3:6) and "enticed" (Gen 3:1-5).

What exactly changed in Adams make-up....I don't know.

I do - NOTHING CHANGED IN ADAM'S HUMAN NATURE. What happened otherwise was that Eve, and then Adam DIED SPIRITUALLY (which happens when we SIN) and they became LOST HUMANS, just like WE ALL DO.

Whatever happened doesn't change the fact humans now have a sin nature and need Christ Jesus.

Humans DON"T HAVE a "Sin nature". We have a HUMAN NATURE just like Adam, and Jesus. And we're ALL subject to "temptation". Jesus was unique, because when HE was Tempted in every respect AS WE ARE (Heb 4:15) Jesus never allowed HIS LUST (Strong personal desire) to "CONCEIVE" and result in sinful actions. WE, on the other hand, resist temptation sometimes, and sometimes (maybe more often) we don't and fall into SIN.

"Sin Nature" is nothing more than a "Theological theory". We INHERITED NOTHING from Adam, other than our humanity, and aren't "Born with an already existent Burden of Sin" like some heretics want us to believe. We're completely capable of providing OUR OWN SIN as soon as we figure out how to do it. People only die (Spiritually) FOR THEIR OWN SIN, not that of their ancestors (deut 24:16) Humans WERE NEVER CURSED after Adam's SIN. ONLY the Serpent was, and the EARTH was.

Adam gave over his DOMINION (Gen 1:26) over the creation to satan, who STILL HAS IT (Prince of the power of the air).

 

[CrowCross]

I didn't say God was sinful. I said God created man (Adam) sinful.

And in saying that you are in error.

 

[JIM]

There is a difference between having the ability to sin....and having a sin nature where you WILL sin.

Nothing like blaming Adam for your own sinning. It never says in the Bible that anyone WILL sin. It does say that everyone does sin, i.e., that everyone that can sin does sin. Sin is a choice.

 

[JIM]

Nonsense. The physical body was most definitely affected by losing close fellowship with God's life-sustaining presence, as pictured by the lost Tree of Life connection. Adam's physical body suffered the side effects of losing that fellowship. The possibility of the as-yet-sinless Adam dying by making a choice to sin turned into the inevitable result of his body dying because of his choice. "Dying, ye shall die" was the promised result of disobedience, which came true.

But I would agree with you that the spirit originates as a spotless creation coming from God, given to each individual at conception. Unfortunately, the instant that spirit becomes united with that fallen human descendent of Adam at conception, it becomes corrupted by association with it. This is what required the necessity of the virgin birth for Christ. Christ did not come as the seed of Adam, but uniquely as the Seed of the woman.

Sorry 3 Res, but that is pure nonsense. One doesn't become a sinner because of the spirit becoming corrupted by the association with the body. One becomes a sinner when he commits a sin and because he commits a sin.

Yes, Christ came as the seed of Mary, who was the seed of Adam. That is the physical connection, derived through the God created process of procreation. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the spiritual connection which was simply and only God.

And by the way, the only necessity of the virgin birth for Christ was so that He was literally the begotten son of God. It had nothing do with the false concept of original sin being passed down through the procreation process.

 

[Arial]

Christ did not die for our "acts" of sin.
He died for our human nature that was created fallen short of the glory of God because that's the only way man can be created. God did not reduplicate any aspect of His glory in man.
And the image of God is not Adam. The image of God is Christ.
And there is no better image of a Father than a Son.

If Christ actually took on Adams' nature as a sinner, He would have become a sinner.. Adam was not created as a sinner, he became one. We are born with that nature and do sin. Jesus dealt with both things for the believer, those God would give Him, but He did not become that in order to do it. As the only perfectly righteous man He was able to substitute Himself to take the punishment for sin and die as though He were a sinner, meeting God's justice against our sins. If Jesus actually took on our nature as a sinner, who then paid for His nature as a sinner?

You neither understand imputation or what it means in Psalm 8 that man was crowned with glory at creation, or what it means to be created in His image and likeness. Gen clearly tells us God created man (Adam) in His image and likeness.

To be crowned with His glory, and to be made in His image and likeness, does not mean that any deity is duplicated in us any more than "His glory is over all the earth" or "His glory is seen in His creation: means that any deity is transferred to or found in any created thing. It means His glory is seen in His creation.

 

[Arial]

In order for the first man to stand before a Holy God he would have to be God Himself but he's not. Thus, he is fallen short of God's glory.
AND if Adam and the woman didn't eat from the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil, they would have died eventually for they were not eternal. God is Eternal and this glory He gives to NO ONE. And if they were not eternal then they fall short of God's total glory.
The ONLY Person that can stand blameless before a Holy God is a Holy Son.

You are making a liar out of God and His word. You also give a scenario of salvation that either makes the believer become divine, or still leaves us unable to stand before God.

 

[CrowCross]

Nothing like blaming Adam for your own sinning. It never says in the Bible that anyone WILL sin. It does say that everyone does sin, i.e., that everyone that can sin does sin. Sin is a choice.

Of course sin is a choice...a choice that everyman makes as it is our fallen nature...as all me fall short. All men are all ready condemned until they are born again.

 

[CrowCross]

And by the way, the only necessity of the virgin birth for Christ was so that He was literally the begotten son of God. It had nothing do with the false concept of original sin being passed down through the procreation process

Jesus had no sin nature as He was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
Adam had no sin until the fall as he was made by God.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Sorry 3 Res, but that is pure nonsense. One doesn't become a sinner because of the spirit becoming corrupted by the association with the body. One becomes a sinner when he commits a sin and because he commits a sin.

I don't mean to split hairs on this, but perhaps I need to clarify what is underlined in your statement above. That's not exactly the sense of what I wrote. The original gift of a sinless spirit given by God at the conception of each individual becomes corrupted the moment it unites and becomes identified with the fallen human elements that are "in Adam" as one of his descendants. It's the principle of representation at work, as others have mentioned above.

The reason why the power of the Holy Spirit could come upon the virgin Mary and not result in Jesus inheriting a corrupted nature is because Jesus was not the seed of Adam as His representative. He was identified as the "Seed of the woman" instead, which was not connected to a fallen, representative human father.