Adam's Sin Imputed To Mankind

[Arial]

If you agree with the above without any equiovocations, then we are in agreement.
If you equivocations, then we are not in agreement.

Yes or no?

I am not going through it again.

Substance constitutes the thing, clarity simply explains it, and does not affect its substance.

Clarity of the substance is what I have been striving for but evidently I failed. Or it just met stubborn.

 

[Arial]

But there is a reason why Paul said sin is not imputed without the Law. Notice he didn't say it was imputed any way, from Adam. He switches to 'death reigned' and repeats that in v17. But he does call it imputation down in v19.

But it does not say Adam's sin is not imputed. He is simply saying that the Law is not the way in which death came to all men.

How about status instead of position? Or it could be 'legal position.'

That would work too. Maybe @Eleanor can understand it better in those terms.

 

[EarlyActs]

But it does not say Adam's sin is not imputed. He is simply saying that the Law is not the way in which death came to all men.

That would work too. Maybe @Eleanor can understand it better in those terms.

The later verses say that one man's sin was imputed. Just not at the beginning.

 

[Arial]

The NT does not present our imputation of his sin as[ in Adam, but as from Adam.

1 Cor 15:22 For as IN Adam all die, even so IN Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[Eleanor]

I believe I hear Eleanor saying that prior to the law being given we are guilty of Adams sin.
I also hear Arial saying the same thing.

Agreed.

BUT....

I believe I also hear Eleanor saying when the law came to be the guilt for Adams sin went away and we are now responsible for our own sin.

Not quite.

All mankind, since Adam to the end of time are guilty of Adam's sin imputed to us.
The law is then added to that guilt because of our inherited fallen nature.
Assuming my correction here for what I actually stated,

Agreed.

I believe I hear Arial saying that we are guilty of Adams sin even after the law was established and it continues until today. We are also responsible for our own sins.

Agreed.

Am I close?

If you are correct in regard to what Arial is saying, she and I are in complete agreement.

Thanks!
An arbitrator always helps.

 

[Eleanor]

But there is a reason why Paul said sin is not imputed without the Law.

He gave the reason. All death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23). It is the first step of is argument:
Sin is lawbreaking. No law means no sin to impute.

Notice he didn't say it was imputed any way, from Adam. He switches to 'death reigned' and repeats that in v17.

No, he states the next step of his argument.
There was no sin committed by mankind between Adam and Moses to impute to them because there was no law to break.

But he does call it imputation down in v19.

That is the conclusion of his argument.
Their death demonstrates that sin was imputed to them.

I think the point is that, to the chagrin of Judaizer friends and enemies, the Law did not improve things, made them worse!. That would be hard for them to take!

I don't think so, Paul is building his argument to his conclusion in the contrasting parallels of imputation of sin and imputation of righteousness in Ro 5:18-19.

Thanks, this is all really helpful to the cause of understanding.

How about status instead of position? Or it could be 'legal position.' This would match those hostage situations where 100 might be held, but all will suffer if just one makes a break. But if it is about debt anyway, then imputing is taking place.

 

[Eleanor]

Clarity of the substance is what I have been striving for but evidently I failed. Or it just met stubborn.

In yourself, or someone else, or both?

 

[Arial]

In yourself, or someone else, or both?

Look Eleanor I posted the thread because I thought it was interesting. Maybe you don't. Maybe you just want to come across as the only one who has everything right and other views must be stepped on.

But one thing you have not addressed is WHAT I SAID in comparing the imputation of Adam's sin to us and the imputation of our sins to Christ or the reverse comparison His righteousness imputed to us. It was all part and parcel of Him coming as a man, and being able to break our being in Adam a sinful creature. First Adam. Second Adam. In Adam. In Christ. And you never acknowledged whether or not you understand what federal head means. You just offered a "cute" remark. Like the one above.

 

[Eleanor]

Clarity of the substance is what I have been striving for but evidently I failed. Or it just met stubborn.

In yourself, or someone else, or both?

Look Eleanor I posted the thread because I thought it was interesting. Maybe you don't. Maybe you just want to come across as the only one who has everything right and other views must be stepped on.

But one thing you have not addressed is WHAT I SAID in comparing the imputation of Adam's sin to us and the imputation of our sins to Christ

I stated that the NT does not present Christ's sin bearing (1 Pe 2:24) as "imputation," and I think we have no Biblical basis for stating such.

or the reverse comparison His righteousness imputed to us.

In the NT, the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us is not paralleled with imputation of our sin to Christ.
Rather, imputation of Christ's righteousness to us is paralleled with imputation of Adam's sin to us (Ro 5:18-19),
where Adam is stated as being the pattern of Christ in imputation to us (Ro 5:14).

It was all part and parcel of Him coming as a man, and being able to break our being in Adam a sinful creature.

He came to pay the ransom for the elect that they might be the righteousness of God in him.

First Adam. Second Adam.
In Adam. In Christ.

Imputation of our sin to Christ is not an "In Adam. In Christ." parallel of imputation of Adam's sin to us.
The NT does not allow for loose handling of these spiritual realities.

And you never acknowledged whether or not you understand what federal head means. You just offered a "cute" remark. Like the one above.

Where do I find it in Scripture that I may review it?

 

[Arial]

I stated that the NT does not present Christ's sin bearing (1 Pe 2:24) as "imputation," and I think we have no Biblical basis for stating such.

You stating that does not make it so though that may come as a surprise. If our sins were not imputed to Him then we are still in our sins.

In the NT, the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us is not paralleled with imputation of our sin to Christ.

In fact it is the very bedrock of salvation.

Rather, imputation of Christ's righteousness to us is paralleled with imputation of Adam's sin to us (Ro 5:18-19),

You actually said that right (but it is not a rather it is an also) but you have given no indication that you understand it correctly.

where Adam is stated as being the pattern of Christ in imputation to us (Ro 5:14).

He is the pattern of federal headship. He undoes what our first parent did for all who are His. What Adam did is established our legal standing before God. Guilty.

He came to pay the ransom for the elect that they might be the righteousness of God in him.

Certainly but that is more than just words. And my point had to do with Him being a man. There are many reason why He had to be one of us and one of those reasons is that Adam was a man, and Adam by virtue of his sin being imputed to us caused us all to be guilty before God.

Imputation of our sin to Christ is not an "In Adam. In Christ." parallel of imputation of Adam's sin to us.

We are born in Adam. As a result of his sin being imputed to us we are all sinners. The Bible itself refers to the believer as being in Christ and Paul says directly that because of His work the believer is no longe in Adam but in Christ. A new CREATION. Out legal standing before God is changed. Not guilty.

The NT does not allow for loose handling of these spiritual realities.

You are the authority on the matter then? Tighten the strings.

Where do I find it in Scripture that I may review it?

It is a very visible concept starting in Gen, illuminated in Christ, and much more than I care to get into at the moment. Do some research of it. As you are Calvinist check with some of their writings. Sproul etc. Even the old timers, probably Calvin himself, can throw some light on it. It is easy enough to google for sources.

 

[Arial]

Where do I find it in Scripture that I may review it?

Federal head.

Federal headship regarding Adam and Christ is expressed this way: In Adam. In Christ.
In Adam all fell. In Christ the many are reconciled.




Federal headship is a theological term used by some scholars to explain imputation—how Adam's sin impacted or infected the rest of the human race, and how Jesus' righteousness was made available to everyone who believes in the gospel. Federal headship is not clearly set out in the Bible, though the concept can be understood to be implied.

Federal headship says that Adam was the federal head, or representative, of humanity. Thus when he chose to sin, all of humanity would be considered guilty because he was our representative.(Romans 5:18–19).(Romans 4:15) From compellingtruth.org/federal head.

 

[Eleanor]

Federal head.

Federal headship regarding Adam and Christ is expressed this way: In Adam. In Christ.
In Adam all fell. In Christ the many are reconciled.

Thanks.

But the NT does not present all "falling" in Adam.
It presents all "dying" in Adam, which is the result of imputation of Adam's sin, not of their own "falling."

Federal headship is a theological term used by some scholars to explain imputation

What's wrong with the Biblical term "imputation" itself?

—how Adam's sin impacted or infected the rest of the human race,

Doesn't the NT's "sinful nature" cover that ground?

and how Jesus' righteousness was made available to everyone who believes in the gospel.

Actually, the righteousness that is imputed to us is forensic (justification/righteousness, Ro 3:22-23), due to Christ's righteousness which
removed our unrighteousness on the cross, whereby God declared us "not guilty," found us legally in right standing with his Court; i.e.,
time served (debt paid, sin removed), no debt owing.

Federal headship is not clearly set out in the Bible, though the concept can be understood to be implied.

Thanks, that helps.

Now let me say that I realize this is a reformed (covenant theology) site, and so I will respect that theology.
But I have to say that I don't see the need to improve on imputation, sinful nature (flesh, Gal 5:13, 16, 17, 19, 24), nor justification (forensic righteousness) with the introduction of federal headship.
Nevertheless, we are in complete agreement on the teaching of the NT, and that is what matters.

Federal headship says that Adam was the federal head, or representative, of humanity. Thus when he chose to sin, all of humanity would be considered guilty because he was our representative.(Romans 5:18–19).(Romans 4:15) From compellingtruth.org/federal head.

That simply being imputation of Adam's sin, which is paralleled with imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).

 

[Red Baker]

In the NT, the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us is not paralleled with imputation of our sin to Christ.
Rather, imputation of Christ's righteousness to us is paralleled with imputation of Adam's sin to us (Ro 5:18-19),
where Adam is stated as being the pattern of Christ in imputation to us (Ro 5:14).

Amen

Where do I find it in Scripture that I may review it?

Sister Eleanor, you just mentioned above in my quote of you.

Romans 5:14~"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

The resemblance, on account of which Adam is regarded as the type of Christ, consists in this, that Adam communicated to those whom he represented ( being their federal head ) what belonged to him, and that Christ also communicated to those whom He represents ( being the federal head of God's elect ) what belonged to Him. There is, however, a great dissimilarity between what the one and the other communicates By his disobedience Adam has communicated sin and death, and by His obedience Christ has communicated righteousness and life; and as Adam was the author of the natural life of his posterity, so Christ is the author of the spiritual life which His people now possess, and which they shall enjoy at their resurrection, so that, in accordance with these analogies, He is called the last Adam. If, then, the actual obedience of Christ is thus imputed to all those of whom He is the head, and is counted to them for their justification as their own obedience; in the same way, the actual sin of Adam, who is the type of Christ, is imputed to all those of whom he is the head, and is counted for their condemnation, as their own sin. In writing to those at Corinth, who were ‘sanctified in Christ Jesus,’ the Apostle says, ‘The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.’

 

[Eleanor]

Amen

Sister Eleanor, you just mentioned above in my quote of you.

Hi, Red,

I was referring to the nomenclature, "federal head," which I do not find in Scripture.
Personally, I prefer the Biblical "in Christ" and "in Adam" to man's notion of "federal head," which I do not see as an improvement thereon.

The resemblance, on account of which Adam is regarded as the type of Christ, consists in this, that Adam communicated to those whom he represented ( being their federal head ) what belonged to him,

Keeping in mind that Adam did not "communicate" his sin to us, God in his court imputed it to us, and God in his justice counts us guilty thereof.
Adam "communicated" his fallen nature to us by inheritance, but not his sin.
God imputed his sin to us as our legal standing before God, just as he imputes Christ's righteousness to us as our legal standing before God (Ro 5:18-19).

and that Christ also communicated to those whom He represents ( being the federal head of God's elect ) what belonged to Him. There is, however, a great dissimilarity between what the one and the other communicates By his disobedience Adam has communicated sin and death, and by His obedience Christ has communicated righteousness and life; and as Adam was the author of the natural life of his posterity, so Christ is the author of the spiritual life which His people now possess, and which they shall enjoy at their resurrection, so that, in accordance with these analogies, He is called the last Adam. If, then, the actual obedience of Christ is thus imputed to all those of whom He is the head, and is counted to them for their justification as their own obedience; in the same way, the actual sin of Adam, who is the type of Christ, is imputed to all those of whom he is the head, and is counted for their condemnation, as their own sin. In writing to those at Corinth, who were ‘sanctified in Christ Jesus,’ the Apostle says, ‘The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.’

 

[Red Baker]

Hi, Red,

I was referring to the nomenclature, "federal head," which I do not find in Scripture.
Personally, I prefer the Biblical "in Christ" and "in Adam" to man's notion of "federal head," which I do not see as an improvement thereon.

Keeping in mind that Adam did not "communicate" his sin to us, God in his court imputed it to us, and God in his justice counts us guilty thereof.

Should have said God imputed not that Adam communicated his sins to us~my bad.

Adam "communicated" his fallen nature to us by inheritance, but not his sin.

Agreed~Genesis 5:3

 

[Red Baker]

Personally, I prefer the Biblical "in Christ" and "in Adam" to man's notion of "federal head," which I do not see as an improvement thereon.

After thinking about it, I see where it can be very misleading.

I have no problem allowing anyone to correct me to make me speak according to the oracles of God, only pride would refuse to be made more perfect in our thinking, teaching, understanding.

I have used the phrase Federal Headship since that's all I have ever considered for the past fifty years~but no more.

 

[JIM]

The resemblance, on account of which Adam is regarded as the type of Christ, consists in this, that Adam communicated to those whom he represented ( being their federal head ) what belonged to him, and that Christ also communicated to those whom He represents ( being the federal head of God's elect ) what belonged to Him. There is, however, a great dissimilarity between what the one and the other communicates By his disobedience Adam has communicated sin and death, and by His obedience Christ has communicated righteousness and life; and as Adam was the author of the natural life of his posterity, so Christ is the author of the spiritual life which His people now possess, and which they shall enjoy at their resurrection, so that, in accordance with these analogies, He is called the last Adam. If, then, the actual obedience of Christ is thus imputed to all those of whom He is the head, and is counted to them for their justification as their own obedience; in the same way, the actual sin of Adam, who is the type of Christ, is imputed to all those of whom he is the head, and is counted for their condemnation, as their own sin. In writing to those at Corinth, who were ‘sanctified in Christ Jesus,’ the Apostle says, ‘The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.’

That is your own theological construct. That is not what the Bible says. In both cases, the effects are applied to one and the same group, namely the whole of humanity. There is no distinction made in that passage between those who are affected by Adam's disobedience and those who are affected by Jesus' obedience. All that federal head stuff is eisegeted into the text to agree with your own false thinking.

What that passage says is that the effect of Jesus' obedience is to override the effect of Adam's disobedience for all of humanity. Since the effect of Adam's disobedience is credited at birth, so also the effect of Jesus' obedience is credited at birth. It is not Original Sin; rather, it is Original Grace.

Thus, when Paul speaks in Ephesians 2 about being dead in trespasses and sins, he is obviously not talking about Adam's trespasses and sins but rather the trespasses and sins of each individual. That should be perfectly clear because he designates such trespasses and sins as those " in which you once walked, following the course of this world" (v.2). He follows that up in verses 4-6 with "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, "

But of course, that does not match up with the Calvinist/Reformed doctrine and therefore the test must be doctored in such a way to bring it into compliance. Thus all the hulabaloo about federal heads and such.

 

[Eleanor]

The resemblance, on account of which Adam is regarded as the type of Christ, consists in this, that Adam communicated to those whom he represented ( being their federal head ) what belonged to him, and that Christ also communicated to those whom He represents ( being the federal head of God's elect ) what belonged to Him. There is, however, a great dissimilarity between what the one and the other communicates By his disobedience Adam has communicated sin and death, and by His obedience Christ has communicated righteousness and life; and as Adam was the author of the natural life of his posterity, so Christ is the author of the spiritual life which His people now possess, and which they shall enjoy at their resurrection, so that, in accordance with these analogies, He is called the last Adam. If then

the actual obedience of Christ is thus imputed to all those of whom He is the head, and is counted to them for their justification as their own obedience; in the same way, the actual sin of Adam, who is the type of Christ, is imputed to all those of whom he is the head, and is counted for their condemnation, as their own sin. In writing to those at Corinth, who were ‘sanctified in Christ Jesus,’ the Apostle says, ‘The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.’

That is your own theological construct. That is not what the Bible says. In both cases, the effects are applied to one and the same group, namely the whole of humanity. There is no distinction

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

Your statement is your own theological construct, in the light of apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) in the rest of the NT, and in which light all Scripture is to be understood.
For in the rest of the NT those who are justified and made righteous by Christ's righteousness are only those who believe in and
trust on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin and reconcilation to God. . .and that is not all mankind.

made in that passage between those who are affected by Adam's disobedience and those who are affected by Jesus' obedience. All that federal head stuff is eisegeted into the text to agree with your own false thinking.

What that passage says is that the effect of Jesus' obedience is to override the effect of Adam's disobedience for all of humanity. Since the effect of Adam's disobedience is credited at birth, so also the effect of Jesus' obedience is credited at birth. It is not Original Sin; rather, it is Original Grace.

An even more egregious personal theological construct, in the light of all NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16).

Thus, when Paul speaks in Ephesians 2 about being dead in trespasses and sins, he is obviously not talking about Adam's trespasses and sins but rather the trespasses and sins of each individual.

Agreed, for we are guilty of both our own personally-committed trespasses as well as the trespass of Adam imputed to us (Ro 5:12-14), which imputation of Adam's sin is the pattern (Ro 5:14) of the imputation of Christ's righteousness to those of faith in Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

That should be perfectly clear because he designates such trespasses and sins as those " in which you once walked, following the course of this world" (v.2). He follows that up in verses 4-6 with "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, "

The "us" being the Ephesian believers whom Paul was addressing.

But of course, that does not match up with the Calvinist/Reformed doctrine and therefore the text must be doctored in such a way to bring it into compliance. Thus all the hulabaloo about federal heads and such.

The pot is calling the kettle black again.

 

[Arial]

But of course, that does not match up with the Calvinist/Reformed doctrine and therefore the test must be doctored in such a way to bring it into compliance. Thus all the hulabaloo about federal heads and such.

Just to clarify. It is not a doctrine exclusive to Calvinist /Reformed, but is a doctrine of Christianity, period. What you present is a gross heresy of Christ's church, and one I have never come across before.

 

[Arial]

But the NT does not present all "falling" in Adam.
It presents all "dying" in Adam, which is the result of imputation of Adam's sin, not of their own "falling."

You posted this back in August but today is the first time I am seeing it! I didn't mean to ignore it.

But we did all fall short of the glory of God, because of Adam. It is just a matter of phrasing.

What's wrong with the Biblical term "imputation" itself?

That is not what I mean by explain. Federal headship is the truth behind as Adam goes, so goes all of humanity, and to "all in Christ through faith." It is the core of both original sin and Christ's imputed righteousness. The thing that makes them do what they do for the human race.

Doesn't the NT's "sinful nature" cover that ground?

All of the ground is covered in the NT. Federal headship, declared by God in both Adam and Christ, is how they contrast and affect all humanity in Adam's case, and all the redeemed in the case of Christ. It is just a good thing to know in case someone were to ask the question of how could one man affect everyone? Or in those arguments against original sin and utter depravity, or imputed righteousness.

But I have to say that I don't see the need to improve on imputation, sinful nature (flesh, Gal 5:13, 16, 17, 19, 24), nor justification (forensic righteousness) with the introduction of federal headship.

Why not if it is the case and God's design? It is good knowledge to have. It is not improving on anything, nor is it meant to.