Adam's Sin Imputed To Mankind

[Arial]

There is only ONE God.
There is NONE like Him (not a sinless, or a holy, or a righteous Adam.) And if there is none like Him and He is the standard by which all things are judged, then everything - universe included - and everyone is fallen short at creation of His Glory.

Gen 2:26-27 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created an in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female He created them.

You must act like these verses don't exist and build your theology after removing them. Surely your thought processes are not so narrow as to not be able to discern the different uses of specific words. The Bible does not say that Adam was created like God, but in His likeness.

From the following list, which is the likeness of God? After you have made a choice, in what way is it more in the likeness of God than the others?

Tree
Fish
Cow
Man

 

[Arial]

But you said: "They didn't temp Him", so which is it???

He wasn't tempted by them in the sense that they did not appeal to His own desires. So you actually think that a temptation is always and only a temptation if we are tempted to do the thing but don't do it?

 

[jeremiah1five]

We can get into the discussion of the distinction between soul and spirit. However, for all practical purposes, when speaking of the human being, the terms spirit and soul can almost always be considered to be one and the same. They are very often used interchangeably.

I understand that.
But soul is soul and spirit is spirit.
And soul is immaterial as is spirit but there is distinction depending on the context.
Im hold to the trichotomy of created man. Man sinned, the human spirit died and man became a dichotomy and passed this condition down through the last man to be born when Christ returns.
When born again God creates a new human spirit in the person and man is restored to a three-fold image of God.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Gen 2:26-27 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created an in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female He created them.

You must act like these verses don't exist and build your theology after removing them. Surely your thought processes are not so narrow as to not be able to discern the different uses of specific words. The Bible does not say that Adam was created like God, but in His likeness.

From the following list, which is the likeness of God? After you have made a choice, in what way is it more in the likeness of God than the others?

Tree
Fish
Cow
Man

You think YOU have dominion over fish and birds?
Can you gather fish in a net the way Jesus did by commanding their obedience?
Or when you go outside can you call a bird to your finger?
That's NOT dominion.
ONLY CHRIST has dominion putting everyone to open shame and receiving from His Father power to resurrect the dead.
Can Adam do that?

 

[Arial]

You think YOU have dominion over fish and birds?
Can you gather fish in a net the way Jesus did by commanding their obedience?

Once again you are not taking the fall into consideration. (But then of course I guess you can't since you believe God created Adam as a sinner.) We lost that dominion. Even the wild beasts turned on us and we became the enemy of all of creation including all of God's other creatures. Most of them flee from us in terror. Jesus as incarnate had/has not lost it. He was not created at all but came from the Father as the Son. He was not born of Adam. He is not a creature as Adam was---a created being. It is what Jesus is getting back for us through our redemption, and will be realized when He returns.

ONLY CHRIST has dominion putting everyone to open shame and receiving from His Father power to resurrect the dead.
Can Adam do that?

See above. Adam wasn't God. Jesus is. If Adam had not sinned, there would be no dead to raise.

 

[3 Resurrections]

3 Res,

That description borders upon the essential teaching of Manichaeism. For what it is worth, Augustine of Hippo was a Christian converted from Manichaeism. Unfortunately, I think some he carried some of his Manichaeistic ideas into his Christian theology. It would seem that you, like so many others, have bitten into some of the heresy of Augustine.

I don't read Augustine. I read the scriptures. And the scriptures tell me that the spirits given to mankind come from God (Ecclesiastes 12:7). And God does not create evil spirits because there is no darkness in Him at all (1 John 1:5). Therefore, the corruption that passed on to of all the spirits of mankind is due to the choice that Adam made for evil (Romans 5:12).

God has allowed this for the purpose of showing humanity that no created being can ever be entrusted with the dangerous power of free-will choice. Inevitably, sooner or later, any created being who is given the option of choosing either good or evil will select an evil choice, thereby causing death and separation from its Creator. God Himself is the only one who can be trusted with this potent power of a free will choice to never choose that option to perform evil.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

He wasn't tempted by them in the sense that they did not appeal to His own desires. So you actually think that a temptation is always and only a temptation if we are tempted to do the thing but don't do it?

OF course!!! No other definition of "temptation" makes any sense. If it has no EFFECT on you, then there WAS NO TEMPTATION. Temptation BY DEFINITION starts with your OWN DESIRE.

 

[Arial]

OF course!!! No other definition of "temptation" makes any sense. If it has no EFFECT on you, then there WAS NO TEMPTATION. Temptation BY DEFINITION starts with your OWN DESIRE.

You are wrong. It makes no sense to you. That is not the same thing as it makes no sense.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

You are wrong. It makes no sense to you. That is not the same thing as it makes no sense.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Arial]

do indeed trust the Bible. I do not trust your interpretation of the Bible

You do however trust your interpretation of the Bible, and this trust in yourself is not the way of wise living as Proverbs tells us. It stops the ears up from hearing any but is own presuppositions. Brings learning to a stand still.

You speak of the fall as if that was something imposed upon Adam that ended up affecting us all. That is simply not the case.

That is not how I speak of the fall at all. See above concerning the ears. Misstating what a person says and arguing from that premise is a straw man. It gets burned up in the fire.

Adam came into this world with a body and a spirit. His body was made of dust; his spirit was given to him by God. When he disobeyed God, he sinned and he died spiritually. In dyiing spiritually, he became separated from the source of spiritual life, namely, God Himself. It does not directly affect the physcial life of the person, even if there is an indirect effect due to the life that is being lived apart from God.

Adam did not come into this world. He was created, molded from the dust by God which God breathed life into. You go beyond the scriptures, and speculate, defining things that cannot actually be defined by the finite mind and arrive at anything close to what the reality probably is. God said if Adam ate of that certain tree he would die. And die he did and all of mankind after him. Why did all of mankind die after him? Because all of Adam's children were like their first father. Like begets like. A sinner begets a sinner. This like begetting like, be it one with breath or something without breath but still living, is a law of God given at creation. "After its own kind."

This thing you and others call spiritual death is accurate but that is not the entire story. It did affect the physical life of all people---they all die, and they all die of something. Vegetation dies, animals die, everything dies. What Adam did rocked all of creation. Christ came to redeem it through the redemption of the one who wrecked it---man. It is not an indirect effect. It is a direct effect. All of creation is groaning as it awaits our redemption. (Romans 8.)

Jesus came into this world as a human being similarly; that is He had a body "made of dust" produced through procreation. The difference between Jesus and us is that in Jesus' case, the egg of His mother Mary was fertilized by the Holy Spirit rather than a physical father like us. His Spirit was the pre-incarnate Spirit He was in Heaven with God before taking on His fleshly body of a human being. He didn't sin. He didn't die spiritually as we all have.

So as I said, Jesus was not born in Adam. Did not have the seed of Adam in Him, and in that way was not like Adam's children who are all born with the nature they got from their father---born a sinner.

 

[Arial]

@jeremiah1five

From the following list, which is the likeness of God? After you have made a choice, in what way is it more in the likeness of God than the others?

Tree
Fish
Cow
Man

 

[Arial]

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor. 2:14.

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Cor. 15:43–44.

Adam, in his natural state received not the things of the Spirit of God. Definitely not His image.
The image of God is Christ.
There is no better image of a Father than a Son. We are being conformed into the image of Christ, not Adam. And that is the order:

I have been telling you exactly what Paul is telling you in these scriptures. You don't hear Paul so you certainly won't hear me if I tell you again.
But I will say this: Paul is talking about our natural state, after the fall of Adam. Not Adam's before he fell. And his focus is on the resurrection and how if their is no resurrection of Christ, there will be no resurrection for anyone. Our bodies of flesh will be sown, (buried) a natural body, and it will be raised a spiritual body. Just as it was with Jesus.

We are not being conformed into the image of Adam after the fall. We are being conformed by the the image with which mankind---through Adam before the fall---in which God created him. This is being done in and through Christ and the believers union with Christ. Christ, as one of us, did indeed bear that image with which man was created. But He did it as one of us, suffered as one of us, died as one of us. The us who are in the fallen Adam.

Lets look at image as being a facsimile or reflection of. Which of the following is most closely like God in His created world?
Tree
Dog
Man

 

[Arial]

He sinned because he was created a sinner. He is not a sinner because he sinned. The Doctrine of Imputation declares a nature-swap, not an act-swap.
He takes our sin nature, and we take His Righteous nature.

You have nothing to support your claim that God created Adam a sinner. If he was created a sinner then he had no choice but to sin.If that were the case there would be no need for the enticements to sin be in the Garden. No need for him to receive a command and no way of redemption either. You are in effect saying God created a sinful creature and then sent His Son to die in order to make him not a sinful creature.

And to say that Jesus only died to take away our sin nature and not also our sins, is to deny that we are judged and condemned for our sins. That we ourselves have transgressed against God and our own sins also alienate us from God.

You say it not realizing you said it.
Sin comes from sinner = "sin comes from one capable of sinning."
Same thing.
Now you're getting it.

Oh don't kid yourself.

Adam was created with the ability to sin (capable of sinning) and with an equal ability to not sin. He would not have become a sinner unless/until he did sin. Which he did. That is when Adam became a sinner, and all his children with him. You say God created Adam as a sinner.

 

[EarlyActs]

Melville's BILLY BUDD frequently uses the term 'impute' the way people would understand in the 18th century. Very interesting to follow because the person involved has not actually 'sinned;' but the authority regards them that way. Elsewhere here I have listed samples from Shakespeare, Austen, and William Cody, all of which had a strong Biblical understanding of the term.

 

[Arial]

Christ either died for the acts of sin or for the sin nature. One supports the Doctrine of Imputation. The other does not

One does not cancel the other out. The first is "right now" the second is "not yet" and "right now". We still have that nature. In the future we will not have that nature, right now, it cannot condemn us anymore that our sins can.

That was after the Holy Spirit came.

The Holy Spirit has always been. And He has always been around and working in people.

Actually, WHEN the Holy Spirit came was the atonement applied to God's chosen people Israel.

"God's people" is not restricted to ethnic/geopolitical Israel. The Bible tells us then in the NT which interprets those prophecies in the OT. But it seems you are no more aware of or willing to accept that than the Pharisees when Jesus rebuked them for not understanding or believing the Law and the Prophets. (OT) But that conversation does not belong in this one and you have plenty of other threads that deal with it.

Psalm 8 says nothing about "all humanity."
But it does talk about Messiah.

Here is a bit of history and application on Psalm 8 from the notes in my study Bible. "The subject of this creation hymn is the majesty of God revealed in the created order and the majesty of humanity, God's supreme creation. The psalm is arranged concentrically; the majesty of God's name (verse 1a) heaven (1b-3) the central question( v.4)earth (5-8) and the majesty of God's name (v 9) The structure teaches the centrality of humanity and the ultimacy of deity. Verses 4-6 are applied to Jesus in Hebrews 2:6-8. He was perfect man as well as God. Jesus is the head of redeemed humanity and is restoring human dominion over creation. (Gen 1:28). See also 1 Cor 15:27 and Eph 1:22."

 

[Arial]

KJV: "Sown in corruption"
"Sown in dishonor."
"Sown in weakness."
This speaks of Adam's creation. "Sown" or "planted" in corruption." You read it in 1 Corinth 15, but you miss it.

No. It does not. Are corruption, dishonor, and weakness attributes of God by which He creates? Are they very good?

1 Cor 15:1-11 subtitled in ESV "The Resurrection of Christ." He begins by bringing forth the witnesses of Christ's resurrection.

1 Cor 15: 12-34 titled "The Resurrection of the Dead." It begins with the question "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" He calls those who would ask such a question foolish! and says "What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel---- " and he uses different types of grain as an example. He continues. "But God give it a body as He has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For ot all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is on one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable." and so on.

In verses 46-49 he says, "But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust. and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven."

The subject here is the resurrection and what kind of body we will have at the resurrection. Not Adam's condition when God created him, but what He created Adam from. He, and we, are of the earth. That is our natural state. In order for it to become a spiritual body that can inherit the kingdom it must die, be planted in the earth. The spiritual comes when we are raised with the spiritual body God gives us. That deals with those who die before Jesus returns. They will be resurrected just as Jesus was.

1 Cor 15:50-58 is titled "Mystery and Victory" and begins. "I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep. but we shall all be changed. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we all be changed. For this perishable, body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written" 'Death is swallowed up in victory." The first part of this deals with believers who are still alive when Christ returns.

Paul concludes all of this with the encouragement in verses 56-58 "Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain."

So, read and use this chapter according to its subject instead of using it to promote the blasphemy that God created Adam a sinner. He created Him corruptible meaning he could become corrupted, but He did not create him already corrupt. He created him mortal----subject to death if he became corrupted. Jesus is purchasing for us incorruptible (cannot be corrupted) and immortality (will not die.)

 

[jeremiah1five]

Once again you are not taking the fall into consideration. (But then of course I guess you can't since you believe God created Adam as a sinner.)

God cannot reduplicate Himself. Whatever and whoever God creates with regard to a created being that being will not possess any Deific Attributes of God, theu, they will fall short of His Glory. Only God can stand blameless before God since He is the standard by which everything and everyone is judged.
Christ is Holy. Christ is sinless. The second Adam did not sin because of this.
However, a CREATED man would be 'less' than God and by virtue of its creation be created "missing the mark" of the Glory of God.
It's not hard to understand. You think Adam was on par with God and that he was holy or righteous. But he sinned. Where did it come from? Out of mid-air? No, he sinned because that's where sin comes from: sinners. It is true with Adam, and it is true with everyone else today.
There was nothing special about Adam. He was created the same way we are born. He didn't have a halo, he didn't glow, he was a natural, flesh man, or the earth earthy. It's not hard. Sin comes from sinner. Sin does not come from holy. The second Adam PROVED this. He was holy, He was Righteous, He was sinless, and by virtue of His being all that God is DID NOT sin.

We lost that dominion. Even the wild beasts turned on us and we became the enemy of all of creation including all of God's other creatures. Most of them flee from us in terror. Jesus as incarnate had/has not lost it. He was not created at all but came from the Father as the Son. He was not born of Adam. He is not a creature as Adam was---a created being. It is what Jesus is getting back for us through our redemption, and will be realized when He returns.

See above. Adam wasn't God. Jesus is. If Adam had not sinned, there would be no dead to raise.

You said it but don't understand it. Adam wasn't God. There is NO ONE HIGHER than God so the only course of understanding is that Adam was less, fallen short of God. Think it through. The word for this "missing the mark" of God's Glorious standard is "sin."

If Adam had not disobeyed, he would have eventually died.
God said, "In the day" thou eat of it thou shalt surely die.
Adam did not die soulfully for the soul is comprised of the mind/intellect, senses, emotions, conscience, and will. He didn't die "in the day" he ate of it physically, but he did die spiritually. His human spirit died. Since then, all humankind is born body and soul, no human spirit. It is when a person becomes born again that God creates a NEW human spirit and the person who was body and soul is restored to a trichotomy, or three-part being called the image of God who is three "part" being.
The image of the NEW man is Christ. He is the "express image of his person [the Father]" (Heb. 1:2.)
It says it right there. The image of God is NOT Adam, it is Christ. As Christians we are not being conformed to the image of Adam but of Christ.
It works better that way.

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Heb 1:2–3.

 

[jeremiah1five]

And yet, both Adam and Eve did stand before a Holy God. In fact God created them with His own hands, and breathed His very life into them.

They were able as sinners created sinful to stand before a Holy God because a "lamb was slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world" (Rev. 13:8 ), in the same way the high priest can stand before a Holy God AFTER making sacrifice and cleansing for his sins.
I am beginning to see you haven't given this any serious deep thought because I have.

So, tell me...before God created the heavens, earth, and man, a lamb was slain. WHY?
WHY did God see the need to slay a Lamb BEFORE He created anything?
[edited. ad hominem personal attack]
So, tell me: Why did God slay a lamb before creating anything?
Here's some Scriptures to help you stay biblical.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:7–8.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph. 1:4.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. Jn. 17:24.

49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; Lk. 11:49–50.

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Heb. 9:26.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Heb. 4:3.

Scripture reveals some serious things went on BEFORE God created heaven, earth, and man.
I know you've never thought on these things but now's your chance.
It's TIME to be edified and sharpened!
And jeremiah is going to lay the foundation [of the world] in front of you to think it through,
If you want to learn something instead of textbook answers.

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five

None.
The image of God is Christ.
There is no better image of God than a Son:

GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Heb 1:1–3.

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col. 1:13–15.

Go for it.

 

[JIM]

I don't read Augustine. I read the scriptures.

But clearly not very well.

Therefore, the corruption that passed on to of all the spirits of mankind is due to the choice that Adam made for evil (Romans 5:12).

Romans 5:12 doesn't say anything about Adam making a choice for evil. And it says the reason that men are punished for sin is because it is their own sin.