Adam's Sin Imputed To Mankind

[Eleanor]

You posted this back in August but today is the first time I am seeing it! I didn't mean to ignore it.

But we did all fall short of the glory of God, because of Adam. It is just a matter of phrasing.

Thanks.

"Falling in Adam" connotes to me that I actually did what Adam did and receive the consequences.

Imputation connotes to me that I did not do what Adam did, but I am accounted (imputed) guilty of it and receive the consequences.

Inheritance connotes to me that I did not do the deed, am not accounted guilty of the deed, but receive the consequences of the deed.

That is not what I mean by explain. Federal headship is the truth behind as Adam goes, so goes all of humanity, and to "all in Christ through faith." It is the core of both original sin and Christ's imputed righteousness. The thing that makes them do what they do for the human race.

All of the ground is covered in the NT. Federal headship, declared by God in both Adam and Christ, is how they contrast and affect all humanity in Adam's case, and all the redeemed in the case of Christ. It is just a good thing to know in case someone were to ask the question of how could one man affect everyone? Or in those arguments against original sin and utter depravity, or imputed righteousness.

Why not if it is the case and God's design? It is good knowledge to have. It is not improving on anything, nor is it meant to.

 

[Red Baker]

That is your own theological construct.

Jim, I did not write the scriptures, and actually no man did ( apart from them being moved by the Holy Ghost, speaking?writing as they were moved by Him ) ~ and if man had written them, they would have never come up with the doctrine clearly taught therein...the doctrine of imputation of Adam disobedience and Christ's righteousness, to each of their posterity. Now if you think that each did not have a separate posterity, that only Adam did and not Christ, then you are not being honest with the scriptures, or you are so biased against God's election of pure grace to one person and not to another, even if they are twins coming from the same womb. Consider:

Hebrews 2:13~"And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me."

Matthew 1:21~"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

Jim, Jesus Christ came into this world on a mission, from his Father, to save his people from their sins ~his people, being those given to him by God's election of free grace. John 17

That is not what the Bible says.

It is not what you believe, so you do not want to accept the truth that it is a doctrine originating from the heart of God Himself, for the natural man hates the truths that the wisdom of God has come up with a doctrine that he alone gets all the glory and reveals flesh and blood for what it is~weak, sinful, just the opposite of who God is in every deed/situation.

Jim, if one reject the doctrine of imputation of Adam's disobedience to all of his posterity, then it is impossible to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ, how his righteousness/faith/obedience is imputed to his members of his elect body, he being the head thereof......impossible.

In both cases, the effects are applied to one and the same group, namely the whole of humanity.

Not to the whole of humanity, but to each posterity, the elect just happens to be both of the same!

Ephesians 2: 2,3~"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Only by nature were the elect part of Adam's posterity, and thereby, we inhertied his sinful nature, yet, only by nature were we so, by while by nature children of wrath, we have never been so ( children of wrath ) as others because God Loved his elect with an everlasting love~ listen to more of what Paul said:

Ephesians 2:4,5~" But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved"

There has never been a time when God did not love his elect, never! This is not so with the reprobates, there has never been a time when he loved them, never!

There is no distinction made in that passage between those who are affected by Adam's disobedience and those who are affected by Jesus' obedience. All that federal head stuff is eisegeted into the text to agree with your own false thinking.

I'm coming back to address this statement, since I want to break your post down in shorter posts to make it more desirable reading and easier to retain.

If the federal headship is not acceptable and I see reasons why it should not be use as already addressed above ~ representative is clearly taught. Later....RB

 

[JIM]

Agreed, for we are guilty of both our own personally-committed trespasses as well as the trespass of Adam imputed to us (Ro 5:12-14), which imputation of Adam's sin is the pattern (Ro 5:14) of the imputation of Christ's righteousness to those of faith in Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

Let's first deal with Romans 5:12-14. "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. "

There is absolutely nothing in those verses that says or even suggests that the trespass of Adam is imputed to us -- NOTHING! We can get into an indepth discussion of that passage if you like, but again, there is nothing about imputing the sin of Adam to anyone. In short, given the discussion already presented by Paul concerning those who have not been given the law (of Moses), we know that sin existed with or without the law., i.e., "They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them" (Rom 2:15). And the just punishment for such sin is death (spiritual, not physical). Thus there is no need to interject any notion of imputation of Adam's sin to any who had not received the law of Moses.

Moving on to Romans 5:18, the text says, "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

First understand that that verse, as with that entire passage, is dealing only with the difference between the results of Adam's trespass to all men and the results of Jesus' righteousness to all men. It is NOT dealing the results of the trespasses and sins of all men; Paul deals with those sins immediately following, beginning with 5:20 and continuing on into chapter 6.

You spoke of the pattern set by verse 14. If indeed you wish to stay with that, then the pattern set by the first phrase of verse 18 (and verse 19) is the condition of all men when they are born into this world. Staying with that pattern then the second phrase is the condition of all men when they are born into this world. The first phrase says Original Sin; the second phrase says Original Grace. It says that whatever you think the effect of Adam's sin was upon the whole of mankind, the effect of Jesus' righteousness upon the whole of mankind was to negate the effect of Adam's sin. It says that we come into this world with spirits formed in each of us (Zech 12:1; Eccl 12:7) by God that are alive and well. The spirit of each becomes dead in the trespasses and sins of each.

 

[JIM]

Imputation connotes to me that I did not do what Adam did, but I am accounted (imputed) guilty of it and receive the consequences.

Do you really want to accuse God of doing something so obviously and completely unjust? You would have to be the worst parent in the whole world to blame and punish one of your children for the mistake of another of your children. You wouldn't do that and neither would God.

 

[JIM]

Jim, I did not write the scriptures,

No, but you do interpret them. The problem is (almost) never what is written in the scriptures; it is always in the interpretation of the scriptures.

Only by nature were the elect part of Adam's posterity, and thereby, we inhertied his sinful nature, yet, only by nature were we so, by while by nature children of wrath, we have never been so ( children of wrath ) as others because God Loved his elect with an everlasting love~ listen to more of what Paul said:

Man is not condemned by his sinful nature. He is condemned by the sins he commits. The tendency to sin is not sin.

There has never been a time when God did not love his elect, never!

But of course, you know that I reject totally your interpretation of God's elect. Your interpretation of God's elect is another of those Calvinist constructs interjected into the scriptures to conform to your false soteriology.

 

[JIM]

Just to clarify. It is not a doctrine exclusive to Calvinist /Reformed, but is a doctrine of Christianity, period. What you present is a gross heresy of Christ's church, and one I have never come across before.

You have never come across the idea that God would not commit the gross injustice of condemning one for the sins of another? Interesting. Perhaps you could spend a couple of minutes with Ezekiel 18.

 

[Arial]

You have never come across the idea that God would not commit the gross injustice of condemning one for the sins of another? Interesting. Perhaps you could spend a couple of minutes with Ezekiel 18.

He isn't condemning anyone for the sins of another. The gross injustice and fallacy is saying I said that. People are condemned for their own sins. The reason they sin is because they are born in Adam---of the earth. First the earthly, then the spiritual. 1 Cor 15:42-49


42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”;[e] the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall[f] also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Everyone is still born in Adam. We are not born in Christ until we are reborn from above by the will of the Father---not our own will.

 

[JIM]

He isn't condemning anyone for the sins of another.

What do you think the doctrine of Original Sin is all about? That doctrine teaches that the sin of Adam has been imputed to the whole of humankind. Sin imputed and not forgiven must be punished with eternal condemnation.

Look at the title of this topic.

 

[Red Baker]

What that passage says is that the effect of Jesus' obedience is to override the effect of Adam's disobedience

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Romans-5-15/
Romans 5:15-18~"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Similarities between Adam and Jesus Christ have already been declared by figure (5:14). The strong similarities will be restated very clearly in the section’s conclusion (5:18-19). Condemnation by Adam and salvation by Christ are similar ~ by imputation or representation. The doctrine of imputation ~ legal accounting, counting, reckoning, or charging of Jesus Christ’s righteousness to the elect ~ is well illustrated by similar imputation of Adam’s sin to all men.

Jim, Jesus' obedience just did not just override the effect of Adam's sin~it super abounded it for those, and those only, whom he represented before the law of God. By Adam's offence, judgment came upon all of his posterity from conception on. By Jesus' righteousness, the free gift of righteousness is secured for all that the Father came to him from before the foundation of the world~ 2nd Timothy 1:9.....all men, is not all men without exception, but all men Jews and Gentiles who, were chosen member of his elect body, Christ being the head thereof.

Psalms 139: 14-16~"I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

David in the Spirit speaking of Christ and his chosen members.

What that passage says is that the effect of Jesus' obedience is to override the effect of Adam's disobedience for all of humanity.

Jim, are you saying that Christ's atoning work will not bear perfect results, since most of humanity has and will die lost? The scriptures said that not one of those given to him by his Father will perish, not one.

John 17:6-11~"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

You can limited these words to the apostles only, yet it is true of every single chosen sheep of God~they hear, they come, and Christ keep them and no man is able to pluck them from his hand, no man, no demons.

Since the effect of Adam's disobedience is credited at birth...

From before the foundation of the earth! God knew the end from the very beginning, or, before time even existed.

so also the effect of Jesus' obedience is credited at birth.

Provide scriptures Jim, do not give your personal opinion or your church's position. The reprobates were conceived in sin and there is where God left them since they sinned in Adam. Jesus' obedience never secured God's righteousness for them, never ~ or, lifted the condemnation they were born under through Adam's sin.

It is not Original Sin; rather, it is Original Grace.

Grace has never been shown toward the generation of the wicked, never~that is, the election of grace, to be more precise. Besides, it not call original grace, but truly demerited grace! It is not even unmerited, but we actually did everything to demerit God's grace, yet because of his abundant mercy he showed grace to us on the behalf of Jesus Christ.

Later RB

 

[Red Baker]

I'm missing a post I made before the one above. I posted one about 500 this morning.

Jim you should have two post from me today. I'll look and see if I can find it in my email.

 

[Eleanor]

Let's first deal with Romans 5:12-14. "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. "

There is absolutely nothing in those verses that says or even suggests that the trespass of Adam is imputed to us -- NOTHING!

Yes. . .and no.

Imputation of Adam's sin:
1) is according to not inheriting our ancestor's sin (Eze 18:20),
2) is the logical conclusion of the "contradictory" argument Paul has set up in Ro 5:12-14; i.e., between Adam and Moses "all sinned," and "no one sinned,"
3) is the meaning of the contrasting parallels of Ro 5:18-19 (which positions of first and second statements in the following contrasting parallels I have reversed for the sake of clarity):

so also. . .the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men,
Just as. . .the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men. (Ro 5:18)

How did Christ's righteousness bring life to us?. . .By imputation,(Ro 4:1-11, Ge 15:6)
just as Adam's trespass brought condemnation for all men (by imputation).

so also. . .through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous,
Just as. . .through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners. (Ro 5:19)

How did Christ's obedience make us righteous? By imputation (Ro 4:11, Ge 15:6),
just as Adam's disobedience made us sinners (by imputation).

AND which imputation of Adam's sin was the pattern for Christ's (Ro 5:14) righteousness imputed to us.

So. . .the many were made righteous by Christ's righteousness (Ro 4:1-11, Ge 15:6), which was also
the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the many being made sinners (Ro 5:12) by Adam's sin, and they were made both righteous and sinners by imputation.

We can get into an indepth discussion of that passage if you like, but again, there is nothing about imputing the sin of Adam to anyone. In short, given the discussion already presented by Paul concerning those who have not been given the law (of Moses), we know that sin existed with or without the law., i.e., "They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them" (Rom 2:15). And the just punishment for such sin is death (spiritual, not physical). Thus there is no need to interject any notion of imputation of Adam's sin to any who had not received the law of Moses.
Moving on to Romans 5:18, the text says, "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."
First understand that that verse, as with that entire passage, is dealing only with the difference between the results of Adam's trespass to all men and the results of Jesus' righteousness to all men. It is NOT dealing the results of the trespasses and sins of all men; Paul deals with those sins immediately following, beginning with 5:20 and continuing on into chapter 6.

You spoke of the pattern set by verse 14. If indeed you wish to stay with that, then the pattern set by the first phrase of verse 18 (and verse 19) is the condition of all men when they are born into this world. Staying with that pattern then the second phrase is the condition of all men when they are born into this world.

The issue of the condition of all men at birth is: condition by inheritance through birth, or condition by imputation from God at birth.

The first phrase says Original Sin; the second phrase says Original Grace. It says that whatever you think the effect of Adam's sin was upon the whole of mankind, the effect of Jesus' righteousness upon the whole of mankind was to negate the effect of Adam's sin. It says that we come into this world with spirits formed in each of us (Zech 12:1; Eccl 12:7) by God that are alive and well. The spirit of each becomes dead in the trespasses and sins of each.

They say neither, for neither "Original Sin" nor "Original Grace" is stated in Scripture.

Ro 5:12-14 demonstrates that even when mankind between Adam and Moses did not sin (Ro 5:14) because there was no command to transgress and to cause death (Ro 5:13, 4:15) as there was with Adam (Ge 2:17), all mankind died anyway, because of of the guilt of sin (Ro 5:12). What sin? No one sinned (Ro 5:14).
God imputed Adam's guilt to all those born of Adam, which was the pattern (Ro 5:14) of Christ's righteousness being imputed (Ro 4:1-11) to all those born of Christ (Ro 5:18-19), just as righteousness was imputed to Abraham (Ge 15:6).

 

[Eleanor]

Do you really want to accuse God of doing something so obviously and completely unjust?

Do you really want to deny God imputing Christ's righteousness to me (Ro 4:1-11), which is also contrary to justice in light of my sin?

You would have to be the worst parent in the whole world to blame and punish one of your children for the mistake of another of your children. You wouldn't do that and neither would God.

You would have to be the most merciful person in the world to freely forgive your children with no consequences for their egregious defiance of your goverance.

 

[Red Baker]

I'm missing a post I made before the one above. I posted one about 500 this morning.

Jim you should have two post from me today. I'll look and see if I can find it in my email.

It's post 42 above

 

[Arial]

What do you think the doctrine of Original Sin is all about? That doctrine teaches that the sin of Adam has been imputed to the whole of humankind. Sin imputed and not forgiven must be punished with eternal condemnation.

Look at the title of this topic.

I know that is what the doctrine of original sin is. Where did I say otherwise that you would ask me that question? What is it you do not understand about this? Original sin is the result of the first sin. Adam committed the first sin of mankind. We are born in Adam and as a result we are sinners who sin.

People are condemned for their own sins. The reason they sin is because they are born in Adam---of the earth. First the earthly, then the spiritual.

Is the reason you interpret Jesus as having put to death original sin for all mankind, and now we are no longer in Adam. your way of getting around the doctrine of total depravity. Is that the reason you look at it that way?

Here are the scriptures again that show that, and that we are still born in Adam which you did not bother to address

42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”;[e] the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall[f] also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Everyone is still born in Adam. We are not born in Christ until we are reborn from above by the will of the Father---not our own will.

 

[JIM]

Do you really want to deny God imputing Christ's righteousness to me (Ro 4:1-11), which is also contrary to justice in light of my sin?

Imputing the sin of one to another is called injustice. Forgiving the sin of one who loves and is faithful is called grace. God is not unjust. God is gracious.

 

[Eleanor]

Imputing the sin of one to another is called injustice. Forgiving the sin of one who loves and is faithful is called grace.

And both are not merited.

You complain about one but not the other.
You are not consistent.

 

[JIM]

I know that is what the doctrine of original sin is. Where did I say otherwise that you would ask me that question? What is it you do not understand about this? Original sin is the result of the first sin. Adam committed the first sin of mankind. We are born in Adam and as a result we are sinners who sin.

No, we are not sinners who sin. We are sinners because we sin.

Is the reason you interpret Jesus as having put to death original sin for all mankind, and now we are no longer in Adam. your way of getting around the doctrine of total depravity. Is that the reason you look at it that way?

Total Depravity is a heresy a step beyond the heresy of Original Sin.

Here are the scriptures again that show that, and that we are still born in Adam which you did not bother to address.

In Adam is simply a statement that we are physically human and possess all the attributes of the physically human, including the tendency to sin. None of that is sin. Our spiritual being is not of Adam but of God.

 

[JIM]

And both are not merited.

You complain about one but not the other.
You are not consistent.

Oh good grief Eleanor. It has nothing to do with my complaining about anything. It is about who God is. God is just but God is gracious. That is the story of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

 

[JIM]

Ro 5:12-14 demonstrates that even when mankind between Adam and Moses did not sin (Ro 5:14)

You misread. It doesn't say mankind did not sin. Just the opposite; it said they sinned, just not in the same exact way as Adam.

because there was no command to transgress and to cause death (Ro 5:13, 4:15) as there was with Adam (Ge 2:17), all mankind died anyway, because of of the guilt of sin (Ro 5:12). What sin? No one sinned (Ro 5:14).

Again, you misread Paul has already declared that there was law universally even if the law of Moses had not yet been given (Rom 2:12-15), Thus whether the law was written on thier hearts or written on stone and parchment, there is law and there is sin.

If you would like to pursue the part of Romans 5:13, we can do that.

God imputed Adam's guilt to all those born of Adam,

No, God did not impute Adam's guilt to anyone else (Ezek 18).

 

[Red Baker]

I'm going to sit this out and go to another thread~I do not want Jim to think I'm gaining up on him.

I will say one word about this statement:

God is just but God is gracious.

Jim we see God's justice more in his judgments against sinners, than we do in His attribute of graciousness ~ none of His attributes are made void, or, less glorious by any other.

Romans 11:22~"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God."