Adam's Sin Imputed To Mankind

[JIM]

I'm going to sit this out and go to another thread~I do not want Jim to think I'm gaining up on him.

I will say one word about this statement:

Jim we see God's justice more in his judgments against sinners, than we do in His attribute of graciousness ~ none of His attributes are made void, or, less glorious by any other.

Red, the view of Original Sin that God imputes the sin of Adam to all of Adam's descendants declares that God is unjust. The Calvinist view of Total Depravity takes that declaration of injustice one step further.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No, we are not sinners who sin. We are sinners because we sin.

That is the opposite of the way Christ described it in Matthew 12:33-37. "The tree is known by its fruit", He said. Bad fruit only shows that the original source (the tree) was bad already.

When our spiritual condition is changed by the Holy Spirit, then, and only then, can we produce good fruit which is pleasing to our Creator.

Adam's one act of disobedience changed forever the state of the "gene pool" in which all of his descendants would be conceived. A fallen Adam could only produce fallen children, made after His own likeness. It takes God stepping in to change that fallen status so that we can be made after His likeness.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Romans 5:12-14 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

This scripture is clearly saying that Adam's sin is imputed to us. And all men are condemned by Adam's sin as all meet death even before the Mosaic covenant Law was given.There has always been law by God's very character and we have always been lawbreakers. People were put to death for sin period, not just for breaking the covenant law.

Does that mean we are condemned for Adam's sin?

There are two things in play here. The imputed sin of Adam and original sin.

The imputed sin refers to our position before God through Adam as the federal head of mankind because of what he did, his sin. It is external.


Original sin refers to what Adam's sin, the first sin, caused. It is internal and becomes a part of who we are. Sinners.

Death reigned over all mankind through Adam----imputed sin---.
We all personally deserve God's wrath because of our own sins---original sin.

So we come to our sins imputed to Christ on the cross. 1 Peter 2:24 He HImself bore our sins in His body on the tree that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been healed.

As incarnate, in His flesh as one of us, He set us free from our imputed sin of Adam. Our external position before God.

As bearing our sins and taking their just punishment He paid the debt for our original sin---internal.

As a result His righteousness is imputed to us---external---positional. We are no longer positionally in Adam with God but reconciled to Him. This presents a right now/not yet situation in which we still sometimes sin while we live in this flesh, for our nature has not changed, only our position.

We are now set aside as holy to God, in a position where sin can no longer condemn us to death ...

Just to hopefully inspired thought, but although our sin has been atoned, we are still under the effect of sin which is death.
We still die as a result of sin.

and facing His wrath, (glory be to God), because of our position in Christ; we will arrive at our destination of glorification and actual sinlessness, when He returns. In the meantime, through the working of the Holy Spirit in us He sanctifies us more and more into the image of Christ, as we learn of Him through His word, and as we commune with Him in our prayers.

There are those that say 'we sin because we are sinners,'
or
'we are sinners because we sin.'

Only one of the two actually is supported the Doctrine of Imputation.
The other is a fraud.
Do you know which is true and the other false?

 

[jeremiah1five]

I don't disagree...I just don't understand it completely. That is what exactly happened to Adam when he fell. Or, what changed.

Would it help if I were to say "God created man (Adam) sinful?

Whatever it was I believe it can be likened to what happen to Eve and childbirth. Apparently prior to the fall Eve would have had children with little or no pain....after the fall God changed Eve physically....from what to what??? I don't know. Was it a change to the birth canal? Was it a change to Eve's hips? We don't know.

But, the bible tells us in Gen 3:16 there was some sort of change.
16 To the woman he said,
“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.

This change...genetic...would now be part of Eves female progeny.

Prior to the fall Adam had no sin nature, or in other words a proclivity to sin. What exactly changed in Adams make-up....I don't know.
Was it a DNA genetic change? Was it a spiritual change? Was it some form of cognitive change? Was it a change in instinct? Perhaps someone here can shed some light on the subject and provide us with an answer.

Whatever happened doesn't change the fact humans now have a sin nature and need Christ Jesus.

 

[CrowCross]

Would it help if I were to say "God created man (Adam) sinful?

No. As Adam wasn't created sinful. Adam was created very good.

Now, Adam had the ability to sin....but that doesn't make him sinful.

But, you said "man" above....which would be representative of Adam and Eves descendants...progeny...
Are we created sinful or are we created (born) with the fallen sin nature that Adam acquired when he fell?

 

[Arial]

Just to hopefully inspired thought, but although our sin has been atoned, we are still under the effect of sin which is death.
We still die as a result of sin.

Yes, but it cannot hold us.

There are those that say 'we sin because we are sinners,'
or
'we are sinners because we sin.'

Only one of the two actually is supported the Doctrine of Imputation.
The other is a fraud.
Do you know which is true and the other false?

We sin because we are sinners. In Adam, that is what we are. That is the imputation.

 

[JIM]

Adam's one act of disobedience changed forever the state of the "gene pool" in which all of his descendants would be conceived.

Personally, I think that is a really silly statement. But assuming it to be true, just who do you think established that functional change in God's creation?

 

[CrowCross]

Personally, I think that is a really silly statement. But assuming it to be true, just who do you think established that functional change in God's creation?

I'm don't think that 3R meant a DNA change...but used "gene pool" to indicate progeny or descendants.

 

[JIM]

I'm don't think that 3R meant a DNA change...but used "gene pool" to indicate progeny or descendants.

If not a DNA change, then what got changed?

 

[3 Resurrections]

If not a DNA change, then what got changed?

Spiritual death took place, as predicted and promised by God in the day that they ate of the forbidden fruit. A condition of spiritual death corrupts anything in association with it, namely the physical body in which it resides, which consequently dies also physically as a result of separation from its life-giving Source.

 

[jeremiah1five]

No. As Adam wasn't created sinful. Adam was created very good.

And what is your understanding of the word "good"?

Now, Adam had the ability to sin....but that doesn't make him sinful.

This was written around 1000 BC.
How 'ancient' do you think the writer goes back?
The Garden by word of mouth?

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam 24:13.

It's another was of saying, "sin comes from sinner."

But, you said "man" above....which would be representative of Adam and Eves descendants...progeny...
Are we created sinful or are we created (born) with the fallen sin nature that Adam acquired when he fell?

Only Adam and the woman were created. Everyone else from them is born.

But as I submitted to the author of this post:

One is true, the other is false:

"sin comes from sinner"

or

"we sin because we are sinners."

Only one of the two is supported by the Doctrine of Imputation.

Do you know which?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Yes, but it cannot hold us.

We sin because we are sinners. In Adam, that is what we are. That is the imputation.

Great. I see the same Jesus. We sin because we are sinners.
Do you understand the Doctrine of Imputation?

It's described right here:

21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor. 5:21.

The words in brackets "to be" are in italics in the KJV meaning they were added to the text for syntax purposes.

Read it without those words. It plays out the same in the Greek.

 

[CrowCross]

If not a DNA change, then what got changed?

There are several views on this topic so to be dogmatic about your favorite isn't the wisest move.

Many think the sin nature is imputed to people.....at conception? During the pregnancy? At birth? Doesn't really matter as we have a sin nature.
Our sin nature is imputed in a way in which imputation is how are sins are given to Christ and His righteousness given through imputation to us when we believe.

Could it be genetic? Could be. I would say prior to the fall if Eve had children the delivery would have been painless or very little pain...but the genetics were changed which produced a physical change to the women's body which now causes pain in childbirth.
Is it the same for the sin nature....that is Adams sin caused a genetic change to us that resulted in a sin nature? Personally I'm going with imputation.

 

[CrowCross]

Only one of the two is supported by the Doctrine of Imputation.

Do you know which?

Neither.

We sin because we have a sin nature....a nature or propensity to sin which entered into Adams future progeny when Adam fell.

If Adam didn't fall then mankind would not have a sin nature.

To answer your question "we sin because we are sinners."...is the best of the two answers. Do you know why?

 

[Arial]

Great. I see the same Jesus. We sin because we are sinners.
Do you understand the Doctrine of Imputation?

It's described right here:

21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor. 5:21.

The words in brackets "to be" are in italics in the KJV meaning they were added to the text for syntax purposes.

Read it without those words. It plays out the same in the Greek.

What exactly is it that you think I am saying that makes you post this to me, as though I do not know what imputation is?

 

[Eleanor]

You misread. It doesn't say mankind did not sin. Just the opposite; it said they sinned, just not in the same exact way as Adam.

Non-responsive to my Biblical demonstration.

 

[Eleanor]

Oh good grief Eleanor. It has nothing to do with my complaining about anything. It is about who God is. God is just but God is gracious. That is the story of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

Non-responsive to to my Biblical demonstration of post #51.

 

[JIM]

Spiritual death took place, as predicted and promised by God in the day that they ate of the forbidden fruit. A condition of spiritual death corrupts anything in association with it, namely the physical body in which it resides, which consequently dies also physically as a result of separation from its life-giving Source.

Nah! ! ! The physical body is unchanged by the spiritual death. The death of the physical body is an attribute of creation. All things physical are time limited by the design of creation. And the spirit is not produced by procreation; rather it is the creation of God for each individual.

 

[JIM]

Neither.

We sin because we have a sin nature....a nature or propensity to sin which entered into Adams future progeny when Adam fell.

If Adam didn't fall then mankind would not have a sin nature.

To answer your question "we sin because we are sinners."...is the best of the two answers. Do you know why?

If we sin because we have a sin nature, then why did Adam, who you say didn't have a sin nature, sin?

 

[JIM]

Non-responsive to my Biblical demonstration.

Non-responsive to to my Biblical demonstration of post #51.

Your "biblical demonstration" is non-responsive to the bible.

Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

How, given what Paul says there, can you, claim that the trespass affected the whole of humanity universally, but the free gift affected only a few previously selected individuals? Paul says there that the free gift was much more efficacious that the trespass. You obviously reject that.