A proposition (Calvinistic or no?)

[atpollard]

The reality is that the propitiation is available to everyone; but not everyone avails themselves of the provision of the Cross.

In order for the propitiation to apply to you, you must receive Jesus as Lord and Saviour from sin.

But it is available to everyone.

You still have not addressed what the propitiation IS. I repeat: THE QUESTIONS ARE A SET! Jumping ahead is meaningless without first laying the foundation. [Are you saying that Jesus accomplished NOTHING? ... You did not address the propitiation, so we must GUESS what you think and meant.]

I am actually pointing out my original point that the verse is typically "weaponized" or "brushed aside" but never honestly discussed in detail.

 

[atpollard]

Why not just emphasize that if we come to Christ, we are of the elect; and leave it at that?

If we come to Christ because of US rather than because of God, then these:

• John 6:44 [NASB] "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
• Romans 9:15-16 [NASB] For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION." So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.
• Ephesians 2:1-10 [NASB] And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

... are all false.

• People CAN come to Him without the Father first drawing them.
• It DOES depend on the person who WANTS and RUNS rather than exclusively on God showing mercy.
• We were not DEAD, we were only SICK, since we staggered under our own power to the cross. God did not make us alive while we were dead, God merely healed us when we came to Him for healing. The faith that saved was most certainly NOT - "not of ourselves" - rather it WAS our faith that saved us and it was OUR WORK of coming to Christ that saved us ... giving those saved "something to boast about" [Romans 4:2].

That is why.

Soli Deo Gloria! ("All Glory to God Alone") is at stake.

 

[Arial]

Why not just emphasize that if we come to Christ, we are of the elect; and leave it at that?

Because "coming to Christ" needs to be defined. To the Calvinist that means believing in who He is and what He has done and is doing. The real Christ as presented in the scriptures.

What does "coming to Christ" mean to you?

 

[JIM]

If we come to Christ because of US rather than because of God, then these:

• John 6:44 [NASB] "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

Does that describe you? How? I am not questioning your standing before God. I am just interested in what that verse actually means to you personally. And maybe how you perceive that concerning others.

 

[makesends]

The Antichrist, according to scripture, will honour a "god of forces".

That is not my God.

My God, as being the Holy Ghost, is all about liberty / freedom (2 Corinthians 3:17).

How do any of you deal with that verse?

"17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."

And, "If the Son of Man shall make you free, you shall be free indeed."

What's the problem? How does that counter what @fastfredy0 said?

You make it sound like all freedom is one and the same thing: Self-determination, absolute spontaneity, and other words that are possible only for First Cause. There are no little first causes trotting about the planet.

 

[fastfredy0]

So, it can be said that God is the first cause and that they / their choices are the second cause.

If the First Cause is not successful, then by definition it is not a First Cause as it did not bring about an effect. *sigh*

You have people being the First Cause as you have people self-determining their salvation. This is not possible. You can will what your will desires. That is circular logic.

You are attempting to say that we are not saved by grace through faith when you identify faith as being a work; and that is not scriptural.

Faith is a work as John 6:29 points out. Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” ..... there it is... faith is a work and the work is done by God.

 

[fastfredy0]

@makesends , @Arial , @fastfredy0 , @atpollard and @God ... that's 5 against 1
*giggle*
Aside: I took a little liberty with the last one but what the heck

 

[makesends]

Why not just emphasize that if we come to Christ, we are of the elect; and leave it at that?

Main reason is that that isn't how Scripture presents election. The focus is the work of God —not what we do, but what HE does.

Is such a doctrine not more conducive to a person coming to Christ; rather than suggesting that the choice is entirely up to God and that therefore if I am not chosen by God I cannot come to Christ?

What we see as practical in attaining what we see as the goal, is a false method for drawing doctrine. Not only do we not know what will work best to achieve God's ends, but our silly minds don't even know God's ends.

Effectual drawing is not our concern; God does not consult us for advice there.

Because such a doctrine might lead someone to be fatalistic in their attitude towards receiving or rejecting Christ..."I'll just leave it up to God..." when all the time God is calling on them to make a decision to receive Christ!

You shouldn't worry —to use your use of practicality for a basis of doctrine, there's nobody effectually drawn who isn't effectually drawn. God will accomplish ALL he set out to do.

 

[makesends]

@makesends , @Arial , @fastfredy0 , @atpollard and @God ... that's 5 against 1
*giggle*
Aside: I took a little liberty with the last one but what the heck

You left out @Eleanor

 

[makesends]

If the First Cause is not successful, then by definition it is not a First Cause as it did not bring about an effect. *sigh*

You have people being the First Cause as you have people self-determining their salvation. This is not possible. You can will what your will desires. That is circular logic.


Faith is a work as John 6:29 points out. Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” ..... there it is... faith is a work and the work is done by God.

Amen! NOT by man! We believe as a result of God's work.

 

[fastfredy0]

You left out @Eleanor

My bad ... and WONDERFUL @Eleanor

 

[Arial]

My God, as being the Holy Ghost, is all about liberty / freedom (2 Corinthians 3:17).

How do any of you deal with that verse?

1 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

I determine what is meant by freedom in this passage by what precedes and follows it.

5-6 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit, For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. So Paul is talking about the law of the old covenant comparing it to the new covenant without law.

He continues to speak of the Mosaic covenant law, calling it a ministry of death, carved on stone---which itself was so glorious they could not even gaze at Moses' face, and he says this was being brought to an end. He compares that to the ministry of the Spirit which has even more glory, surpassing the glory that came with the Law. 11. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

12-13 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end.

In verses 14-15 Paul says their minds were hardened and even to this day when the old covenant is read, that same veil is remains because it can only be taken away through Christ.

16-18 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is remove. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Paul's conclusion to all this is found in chapter 4, which was not a chapter break when the letter was written.

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunnion or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. (Which goes back to his opening remarks of chapter 3 where he was defending his apostleship.) And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the mage of God.

So what is this freedom? With unveiled face beholding the glory of God in Christ and being transformed into His image by God Himself. Out from under the Law. Christ alone.


What do you say that freedom is?

 

[Arial]

Here, there is a people who were not His people, who are now His people.

That simply means in the context that they were not of Israel the nation and in that covenant.

 

[atpollard]

John 6:44 [NASB] "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

Does that describe you? How? I am not questioning your standing before God. I am just interested in what that verse actually means to you personally. And maybe how you perceive that concerning others.

I was making plans to set enemies on fire and die when God claimed me as His property [literally]. As a criminal, raised atheist and morally embracing Nihilism [there is no such thing as good or evil, only subjective individual morality], I was most certainly NOT looking for God ... I was just planning how to take as many enemies as possible with me.

I consider that irrefutable proof that the Father DREW me to the Son.
I make no judgement concerning others [I am unqualified to do so.]

I stand with the preponderance of scripture that God is God and "salvation" is of the LORD. In my opinion, THIS is the money verse:

• "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION." So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. - Romans 9:15-16 [NASB]

 

[Arial]

By denying Irresistible Grace as a doctrine that is unsound.

What if the doctrine contained in irresistible grace, which was stated as such to create the acronym were stated in a way that is consistent with the doctrine and less vulnerable to misconceptions? What if the doctrine actually teaches effectual grace? Grace that does what God sends grace to do.

 

[atpollard]

@makesends , @Arial , @fastfredy0 , @atpollard and @God ... that's 5 against 1
*giggle*
Aside: I took a little liberty with the last one but what the heck

To be fair, he would be in the majority on almost any OTHER Board.

[Truth is not by majority vote].

 

[Arial]

I also acknowledge that "man chooses God" advocates have some valid points ... for example 1 John 2:2 is a verse that needs to be HONESTLY discussed but is often glassed over with a quick and dirty mediocre response, or falls victim to "scripture pong" [a popular sport for both sides of the debate] or is eisegeted with a response that is, frankly, just BAD.

I do not know how honest you would consider this, but I will do my best.
1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

First of all it does not say He is the propitiation for all people in the world, but for the whole world. The "us" in the verse is qualified by "my little children", those John is writing to---believers. He definitely made propitiation for the believer.

So what is propitiation?

Easton's Bible Dictionary - Propitiation​

Propitiation [N] https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/propitiation.html
that by which God is rendered propitious, i.e., by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it consistent for him to exercise his love towards sinners.

King James Dictionary - Propitiation​

Propitiation

Covering; atoning sacrifice.

2. Theological Implication:

The basal idea in Hebrew terms is that of covering what is offensive, so restoring friendship, or causing to be kindly disposed


2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós ("propitiation"). (Strong's)

So propitiation would be something actually accomplished on the cross. If it were for every person in the world, all people in the world would be reconciled to God, and either all would believe, or no faith was necessary.

We know that isn't true from all of scripture and empirical evidence. So "the whole world" must mean something other than every person in the world. It can mean either all nations and people with no ethnic or national boundaries, or boundaries according to classes of people or social or political standing. Which I say it does mean. It could also, and in addition, mean the whole world and all who are in it at the consummation---the fulness of our redemption, as we see that given as a promise in the scriptures and shown in Revelation.

1 John 2:2 is not a valid counter to the doctrine of election and predestination. When it is used as such, it is a complete misinterpretation of not only that scripture, but many, many others. All of them stemming from a false premise that our salvation depends on our choice independently of a new birth by God Himself, and reading into the scriptures from confirmation bias of the false premise, what is not there.

 

[atpollard]

I do not know how honest you would consider this, but I will do my best.

Very well done. You addressed the hard parts without blinking.

One must acknowledge that the SIMPLEST reading of the phrase "and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world" really is "and for all men without exception". The obvious flaw with this "simplest reading" is that it ignores context (which has nothing to do with sotieriology), it leads to the obvious "logical conclusion" of UNIVERSALISM (which is contra-Biblical), and it stands in direct contradiction to other verses of scripture (resulting in a "scripture pong" contradiction). Occam's razor suggests that the "simplest" solution cannot be correct in this case ... greater complexity is "necessary".

World = "All men without distinction" is a common conclusion, and the one that you reached. It is supported by the END RESULTS as seen in Revelation 5:9-10 (And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation. You have made them into a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth.").

World = "creation" is another explanation that I have heard put forward, which has support in verses like Romans 8:19-22 (For the eagerly awaiting creation waits for the revealing of the sons and daughters of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.)

I have also heard that it does mean "all men without exception", however, not in the efficacy of the propitiation, but in two different metrics:

• sufficiency: the atonement was ample to cover all men without exception (if that had been His plan)
• exclusivity: there is no OTHER atonement available by which sin may be covered.

So, 1 John 2:2 is, in my opinion, a verse worthy of discussion.
Thank you, @Arial , for discussing it.

 

[Arial]

I have also heard that it does mean "all men without exception", however, not in the efficacy of the propitiation, but in two different metrics:

• sufficiency: the atonement was ample to cover all men without exception (if that had been His plan)
• exclusivity: there is no OTHER atonement available by which sin may be covered.

Yes I did leave that out. And it is important. And I fully see it that way.

 

[justbyfaith]

Technically, in the analogy, we were the hammer and GOD was the hand that controlled the hammer ... God can drive a nail without a hammer: God could just SPEAK and the nail would drive itself. I suspect that Christ's glorified hand could drive a nail if God needed to drive a nail with his hand.

So, God doesn't even need us...no need for us to evangelize since God does it all...