straw men?

[Arial]

I would say it's God and God through people doing something first. And that which is done first is not regeneration.

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The Word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart"; that is, the Word of Faith which we proclaim;
Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference both of Jew and of Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call on Him.
Rom 10:13 For everyone, "whoever shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of good things!"
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
Rom 10:17 Then faith is of hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

First the Word of God has to be proclaimed, then believed and confessed, and then you are saved. Regeneration is not explicitly mentioned; it is implied when you are saved.

If regeneration is not explicitly mentioned, on what basis do you imply that it follows hearing, believing, and confessing?

 

[makesends]

I would say it's God and God through people doing something first. And that which is done first is not regeneration.

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The Word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart"; that is, the Word of Faith which we proclaim;
Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference both of Jew and of Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call on Him.
Rom 10:13 For everyone, "whoever shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of good things!"
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
Rom 10:17 Then faith is of hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

First the Word of God has to be proclaimed, then believed and confessed, and then you are saved. Regeneration is not explicitly mentioned; it is implied when you are saved.

You assume there that regeneration is a suddenly done thing.

God doesn't say one way or another about that, but, instead, that the sinful nature is incapable of submitting and of pleasing God, and that it is, rather, at enmity with God.

The transformation of regeneration is huge, being from death to life, and there is evidence that for some it is sudden, and for others a process, and for some a noticeable change, and for others a time comes where they simply come to realize that they do believe.

 

[Arial]

I don't see a reference to a heart being opened. I see someone intentionally believing the word with his heart.

Where does that leave regeneration? Looks like it occurs only after one intentionally believes.

Romans 10 does not say that anyone intentionally believed what they heard. How would one do that anyway? It says that no one can believe what they have not heard, and tells how it is heard. And it is describing how faith comes."Believing with the heart" simply means it is a change of heart from being opposed to God to loving God. It is a deep and solid conviction within the person that what he hears is the truth.

It says in verse 20 "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me." We must not pull verses away from their full context and then derive a doctrine from them that cannot be derived if they are placed within the context. In this case, that means all of the book of Romans for Paul is mourning over his Jewish brethren who were given the law, who had the full OT scriptures and should have understood that salvation is through faith and not works, should have recognized the Messiah when He came, but instead hung tightly to salvation by works, not faith. Romans is a tightly woven tapestry that looks back to and establishes the sinful condition of all men and its solution in Christ, relating it to the Law and Prophets and revealing salvation through the righteousness of Christ. It is intensely systematic and all the "buts" and "therfores" and rhetorical questions that connect it one chapter, one verse, with another, should always be considered before we jump to a doctrinal conclusion. There is a whole section immediately preceding chapter 10(chat 9) on God choosing who He will show mercy and who He will not, that also states it is not up to man but God. And that, my friend, undoes intentionally believing before God does a work in a person.

Where does that leave regeneration? Looks like it occurs only after one intentionally believes.

Looks like? Best to find out. Go to the scriptures that are addressing regeneration. John 3 would be a good start.

 

[Arial]

3) Titus 3:5 declares that you are saved at regeneration by the Holy Spirit. If so, then why are those regenerated believers still need to be saved according to Rom 10:9?

Where do you get the idea that Rom 10:9 indicates that Paul is writing that to regenerated believers who still need to be saved? Please explain that as it completely baffles me.

 

[Josheb]

It says in verse 20 "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me."

God is such a Bully . Why would anyone choose Him?

 

[Synergy]

Romans 10:9 does not say belief produces salvation. You just quoted the verse to prove it! Nowhere is the word "produced" existent in that verse. More importantly, and more specifically and explicitly stated in the larger passage is the fact that the "believe in your heart.... you will be saved" is not written about atheists. It is written first and foremost to those already saved and then secondarily, about those of Israel that are Israel by promise - and those people already believe in God! They are not atheists. They were people who already believed in God and already believed in a coming Messiah, and already believed in sin, and already believed in the need for sin's address. None of that applies to the atheist. The athiest does not believe God exists. The atheist does not believe in Jesus. The atheist does not believe sin exist, nor does s/he believe there is any need whatsoever for any kind of salvation from the non-existent sin.

• Paul is not writing to atheists.
• Paul is not writing about atheists.
• Romans 10:9 is not about atheists and should not be applied to atheists.
• Atheists are completely different than the saints and those of Israel that are Israel of promise.

Do not misapply the verse.

I did not say they believers and not saved. Properly read the verse should be understood to say those who believe..... will believe. The saints to whom Paul wrote already believed. The "you" in verse 9 is the saints. Paul is not writing to anyone other than the saints in Rome. Now you might ask, "But Josh, the saints in Rome were already saved. They did not need to be saved. They did not need to believe in order to be saved." And I will answer by saying salvation is not an instantaneous event. Conversion is instantaneous. Salvation is a lifelong process that is not completed until we are raised incorruptible and immortal. The New Testament speaks of salvation in past, present, and future tenses. The saints will be saved. The converted will be saved. Those who believe will be saved. More importantly, however, Romans 10:9 does not actually make a causal relationship. It does not state "belief causes salvation." It most definitely does not state "if the non-believer believes solely in his or her flesh then that fleshly belief will cause his salvation." Neither does it state, "if the non-believer believes solely in his or her flesh then that fleshly belief will cause God to save the non-believer turned believer in flesh alone."

None of those interpretations are supported by the passage's actual statements.

It isn't. First, the phrase "spiritually dead" is nowhere to be found in scripture. I never use it. I said the person was dead in sin. A person who is dead in sin is not saved. A person who is dead in Christ is saved. Those two people are two completely different types of people.

Read it again. Read it exactly as written because it does NOT state "saved at regeneration by the Holy Spirit."

I want you to take great care and great pain to read scripture exactly as written while we discuss this because every time I read the scriptures misrepresented I am going to note that, and you are going to get frustrated. Let's avoid that. What Titus 3:5 actually states is that the saints about whom Paul was writing, were saved

not by works
according to God's mercy
by the washing of regeneration (is there a difference between regeneration and its washing, or are the two identical? )
and renewing by the Spirit.

That is what the verse actually states That is all it states. The "us" and the "we" of that passage is those who already have Jesus as their Savior (as stipulated at the beginning of the epistle).

Because salvation is a process that is completed at resurrection. We are converted in an instant, saved in the end. There would be no sense in ever writing "will be saved," if salvation from sin was all done, all wholly completed at conversion. Simply put, the saved will be saved. All of the epistles were written to saved believers being saved who would be saved. Most of what is contained in all of the epistles was written about the saved believers being saved that would be saved. Very little of it is written about non-believers who would be saved and only a very small portion of any of that can and should be applied to the atheist who believes nothing soteriological.

If you're going to mix Romans 10:9 with Titus 3:5 then you first have to have the correct rendering of both verses, and I advise not removing either verse from their stated contexts.

Sorry that it took a while before I responded. We had a polar front come down to us here in the south that we had to contend with. Anyways, here are my replies to your comments above.

So it's clearer to me now that you do not believe that it's about unsaved people that Rom 10:8-17 is referring to. In light of that, here is my reply specifically about your comments about salvation tenses and about your declaration that "very little of it is written about non-believers who would be saved".

The Bible does in fact differentiate between past, present, and future savings. The past saving has to do with Christ's Atonement which is complete and can be viewed as a past and completed one time event because the Atonement is a past completed one time event. The Present saving is our Sanctification which is on-going. Our future saving is our Glorification.

Atonement phase examples:​

​

(2 Tim 1:9) who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the eternal times.​

(2 Tim 1:10) But it is now having been manifested by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has made death of no effect, bringing life and immortality to light through the gospel;​

​

(John 3:16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. ​

(John 3:17) For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.​

​

Sanctification phase example:​

​

(Act 2:46) And continuing with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they shared food with gladness and simplicity of heart, ​

(Act 2:47) praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. ​

​

Glorification phase example:​

​

(Phil 3:20-21) But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.​

So my question is: which salvific phase is Rom 10:8-17 talking about?

(Rom 10:9) Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Answer: It's clearly referring to the Atonement phase of our salvation. Therefore, it's about the unregenerate unsaved unbelievers that Rom 10:8-17 is talking about. It makes no sense for a regenerate saved believers to repeat that which is a one-time completed event that was already imputed to him once before.

As for your comment that "very little of it is written about non-believers who would be saved", I would respectfully ask why was Christ's very first Ministry (and countless other ones afterwards) a direct outreach to the Lost. See Mark 1:14-15 below.

(Mar 1:14) And after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom of God,
(Mar 1:15) and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God draws near. Repent, and believe the gospel.

 

[Synergy]

If regeneration is not explicitly mentioned, on what basis do you imply that it follows hearing, believing, and confessing?

Titus 3:5 has regeneration at "saved" which Rom 10:8-17 has after hearing, believing, and confessing.

 

[Synergy]

You assume there that regeneration is a suddenly done thing.

Bible verses please.

God doesn't say one way or another about that, but, instead, that the sinful nature is incapable of submitting and of pleasing God, and that it is, rather, at enmity with God.

God created human nature, right?
So the question for you is: Did God create a "sin nature"?
In other words, does sin/evil come from God?
Nature doesn't sin.
It's people who sin. And that can be verified with numerous verses.

The transformation of regeneration is huge, being from death to life, and there is evidence that for some it is sudden, and for others a process, and for some a noticeable change, and for others a time comes where they simply come to realize that they do believe.

Sounds like eastern enlightenment.

 

[Arial]

Titus 3:5 has regeneration at "saved" which Rom 10:8-17 has after hearing, believing, and confessing.

Romans 10:8-17 is not giving the chronological order of salvation. That is not even what it is discussing. It is a contrast between the righteousness that is based on the law, and the righteousness based on faith. Vers 8 is a quote from Deut 30:14 (11-14) Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?: Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" No, the word is very near you; it is in our mouth and in our heart so your may obey it.

Deut exhibits God's salvation as not achieved by strenuous efforts, but by grace bringing it near. Deut 30: 1-6 sets that in the context of returning from exile and Paul sees this as being fulfilled in Christ in the new covenant. Paul reverses the order of the verbs, indicating that heart-belief and mouth confession belong together for salvation. So it is not discussing regeneration or the order of salvation, but that the word of faith that is being proclaimed is the way of righteousness for those who believe.

Titus 3:5 Says we are saved us by the washing of regeneration---the renewal of the Holy Spirit. This is why when we hear, we believe, which is verified by John 3 which says without that we will not be able to see or enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Arial]

(Rom 10:9) Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Answer: It's clearly referring to the Atonement phase of our salvation. Therefore, it's about the unregenerate unsaved unbelievers that Rom 10:8-17 is talking about. It makes no sense for a regenerate saved believers to repeat that which is a one-time completed event that was already imputed to him once before.

Paul is writing to regenerate believers and he is teaching about various things in salvation, and doing so extensively. Just as when we go to church we are taught the word.

Neither Peter or Paul had ever visited the Roman church, though it had been founded for some time before the writing of this letter. This can be verified in Acts. It was likely founded by some who were present on the day of Pentecost and returned to Rome with the gospel. But it had never experienced apostolic ministry. That is why Paul was being so through in his letter.

 

[Synergy]

Romans 10:8-17 is not giving the chronological order of salvation.

Actually, there are numerous sequential events explicitly mentioned in Rom 10:8-17 that lead up to one being saved:

“If you confess…you shall be saved” (Rom 10:9). Action of “confess” precedes event of “saved”.​

​

“whoever shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved” (Rom 10:13). Action of “call” precedes event of “saved”.​

​

“Then faith is of hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.” (Rom 10:17). Hearing the Word of God precedes faith.​

​

Not to mention Rom 10:14-15 which describes 4 sequential events.​

In total, I count at least 7 sequences mentioned in Rom 10:8-17 that lead up to one being saved.

That is not even what it is discussing. It is a contrast between the righteousness that is based on the law, and the righteousness based on faith. Vers 8 is a quote from Deut 30:14 (11-14) Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?: Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" No, the word is very near you; it is in our mouth and in our heart so your may obey it.

Deut exhibits God's salvation as not achieved by strenuous efforts, but by grace bringing it near. Deut 30: 1-6 sets that in the context of returning from exile and Paul sees this as being fulfilled in Christ in the new covenant. Paul reverses the order of the verbs, indicating that heart-belief and mouth confession belong together for salvation. So it is not discussing regeneration or the order of salvation, but that the word of faith that is being proclaimed is the way of righteousness for those who believe.

Thanks for the Deut 30 information. That adds to the context of verse 8 that mentions the word of God. What needs to be noticed is that further on (in verses Rom 10:9-10, 13), you have phrases like “shall be saved”, “unto salvation”, and “will be saved” being mentioned which is above and beyond the information given in Deut 30. That needs to be also taken into consideration.

Titus 3:5 Says we are saved us by the washing of regeneration---the renewal of the Holy Spirit. This is why when we hear, we believe, which is verified by John 3 which says without that we will not be able to see or enter the kingdom of heaven.

For sure no one can see the kingdom of God before regeneration which Titus 3:5 claims that it happens at “saved”. That does not detract anything at all from my statement that “Titus 3:5 has regeneration at "saved" which Rom 10:8-17 has after hearing, believing, and confessing”.

 

[Synergy]

Paul is writing to regenerate believers and he is teaching about various things in salvation, and doing so extensively. Just as when we go to church we are taught the word.

Paul is writing to regenerate believers about those who have not had Christ's Atonement imputed to them. Read Rom 10:9 very carefully. If you claim that verse is targeted for believers then you're verifying multiple imputations per believer. That's not Biblical because Christ died once for all time.

(Rom 10:9) Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Neither Peter or Paul had ever visited the Roman church, though it had been founded for some time before the writing of this letter. This can be verified in Acts. It was likely founded by some who were present on the day of Pentecost and returned to Rome with the gospel. But it had never experienced apostolic ministry. That is why Paul was being so through in his letter.

Thank you for your opinion on Rome's Apostolic claim. I'm not Catholic so there's nothing for me to defend there. I'm just a Biblical Synergist as my title conveys.

 

[Arial]

Paul is writing to regenerate believers about those who have not had Christ's Atonement imputed to them. Read Rom 10:9 very carefully. If you claim that verse is targeted for believers then you're verifying multiple imputations per believer. That's not Biblical because Christ died once for all time.

(Rom 10:9) Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

How can you possibly make such a claim? It makes no sense whatsoever. Paul is making a statement about how salvation is obtained and why those outside the church, specifically his fellow Jews who were unbelieving Jews as he once was, had not obtained salvation. Because they were counting on their position of those who were given the law and oracles and prophets ---works instead of faith---for salvation, and rejected their promised Messiah who brought salvation through faith. Among other things he was teaching. Put the whole epistle---which is a LETTER---together instead of trying to ascertain what is being said according to what you believe already, and that by taking sentences completely out of their context. Paul is grounding those believers in Rome in what they may have not been taught, and answering questions, actual or potential.

Thank you for your opinion on Rome's Apostolic claim. I'm not Catholic so there's nothing for me to defend there. I'm just a Biblical Synergist as my title conveys.

I am flabbergasted!! Why do you think that book is called Romans? Because it is a letter written to the Christian church in Rome! There was no RCC at the time and I made absolutely no reference to the RCC. So with that in mind, I suggest you reread my post and then respond to it with something that has meat on its bones.

Ephesians is a letter written to the churches is Ephesus. 1 and 2 Corinthians letters written to the church in Corinth etc. I suggest if you do not have a study Bible you get one and read the book prefaces on the date and occasion of the writing. It will help clear up a lot of things for you---or at least it should.

 

[Arial]

Actually, there are numerous sequential events explicitly mentioned in Rom 10:8-17 that lead up to one being saved:

“If you confess…you shall be saved” (Rom 10:9). Action of “confess” precedes event of “saved”.“whoever shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved” (Rom 10:13). Action of “call” precedes event of “saved”.“Then faith is of hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.” (Rom 10:17). Hearing the Word of God precedes faith.Not to mention Rom 10:14-15 which describes 4 sequential events.
In total, I count at least 7 sequences mentioned in Rom 10:8-17 that lead up to one being saved.

You are reading it as a sequence, but it is not a sequence. One cannot confess something, and one cannot believe something unless they do believe it, and then and only then can they confess it. So the action does not precede the believing and confessing. Confessing is not what saves us, it is a result of being saved. Only those who are regenerated will call on the name of the Lord (John 6). And one cannot believe something they have not heard, so hearing is necessary to believing. A bit of logic is necessary.

So with that in mind, could you address what I actually wrote?

Thanks for the Deut 30 information. That adds to the context of verse 8 that mentions the word of God. What needs to be noticed is that further on (in verses Rom 10:9-10, 13), you have phrases like “shall be saved”, “unto salvation”, and “will be saved” being mentioned which is above and beyond the information given in Deut 30. That needs to be also taken into consideration.

I actually did take it into consideration when I said Paul is declaring salvation through faith to be a fulfillment of the Deut verses. The NT interprets the OT. What Paul is discussing here is salvation through faith in the person and work of Christ, as opposed to works of the law. He is not laying out a chronological order of salvation, but what is in this faith that saves.

For sure no one can see the kingdom of God before regeneration which Titus 3:5 claims that it happens at “saved”. That does not detract anything at all from my statement that “Titus 3:5 has regeneration at "saved" which Rom 10:8-17 has after hearing, believing, and confessing

Is the crux of your argument that faith comes before regeneration? It is at times, very difficult to tell. Regeneration is the thing that must happen before anyone will believe what they hear concerning the gospel. The timeline between regeneration and hearing is in God's hidden will (meaning He does not tell us and He does things as He pleases, and always perfectly, and it may or may not be done in the same way or on the same timeline for all people He redeems).

 

[Synergy]

How can you possibly make such a claim? It makes no sense whatsoever. Paul is making a statement about how salvation is obtained and why those outside the church, specifically his fellow Jews who were unbelieving Jews as he once was, had not obtained salvation. Because they were counting on their position of those who were given the law and oracles and prophets ---works instead of faith---for salvation, and rejected their promised Messiah who brought salvation through faith. Among other things he was teaching. Put the whole epistle---which is a LETTER---together instead of trying to ascertain what is being said according to what you believe already, and that by taking sentences completely out of their context. Paul is grounding those believers in Rome in what they may have not been taught, and answering questions, actual or potential.

If you don't know already, read up on what "imputes"/"imputed" means and how it explains how Christ's righteousness effects our salvation. Paul uses that term at least 7 times in Romans. It's a foundational pillar of the Reformation.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also says of the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness without works,
Rom 4:8 blessed is the man to whom the Lord will in no way impute sin."
Rom 4:11 And he received a sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith while still uncircumcised; so that he might be the father of all those believing through uncircumcision, for righteousness to be imputed to them also;
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for him alone that it was imputed to him,
Rom 4:24 but for us also to whom it is to be imputed, to the ones believing on Him who has raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

I am flabbergasted!! Why do you think that book is called Romans? Because it is a letter written to the Christian church in Rome! There was no RCC at the time and I made absolutely no reference to the RCC. So with that in mind, I suggest you reread my post and then respond to it with something that has meat on its bones.

Ephesians is a letter written to the churches is Ephesus. 1 and 2 Corinthians letters written to the church in Corinth etc. I suggest if you do not have a study Bible you get one and read the book prefaces on the date and occasion of the writing. It will help clear up a lot of things for you---or at least it should.

I took your "it had never experienced apostolic ministry" swipe as a hit against the RC Church's Apostolic claim. It's hilarious how you went into a ecstatic frenzy thinking you were teaching me what the names of Epistles signify. Even a 5 year old child can understand that and you have certainly shown that your knowledge reaches at least that level. Well done!

 

[Synergy]

You are reading it as a sequence, but it is not a sequence. One cannot confess something, and one cannot believe something unless they do believe it, and then and only then can they confess it. So the action does not precede the believing and confessing. Confessing is not what saves us, it is a result of being saved. Only those who are regenerated will call on the name of the Lord (John 6). And one cannot believe something they have not heard, so hearing is necessary to believing. A bit of logic is necessary.

The only reason I can read Rom 10:8-17 in sequences is because it is written in sequences.
The action of “confess” precedes event of “saved”. “If you confess…you shall be saved” (Rom 10:9). You are directly opposing Rom 10:9.
Your statement of "one cannot believe something unless they do believe it" is circular.

So with that in mind, could you address what I actually wrote?

I did. You wrote, "Romans 10:8-17 is not giving the chronological order of salvation" and I wrote that Rom 10:8-17 is written in sequences. You even made mention of some of those sequences in your previous paragraph.

I actually did take it into consideration when I said Paul is declaring salvation through faith to be a fulfillment of the Deut verses. The NT interprets the OT. What Paul is discussing here is salvation through faith in the person and work of Christ, as opposed to works of the law. He is not laying out a chronological order of salvation, but what is in this faith that saves.

So that takes us back to my question: why do already-saved people need to be saved again?

Is the crux of your argument that faith comes before regeneration? It is at times, very difficult to tell. Regeneration is the thing that must happen before anyone will believe what they hear concerning the gospel. The timeline between regeneration and hearing is in God's hidden will (meaning He does not tell us and He does things as He pleases, and always perfectly, and it may or may not be done in the same way or on the same timeline for all people He redeems).

Titus 3:5 does tell us. Titus 3:5 has regeneration at "saved" which Rom 10:8-17 has after hearing, believing, and confessing. There's nothing hidden about Titus 3:5 nor about Rom 10:8-17. It's there in black and white. Now if you don't want to acknowledge those verses and call it "God's hidden will" well that's another story altogether.

 

[Arial]

The only reason I can read Rom 10:8-17 in sequences is because it is written in sequences.
The action of “confess” precedes event of “saved”. “If you confess…you shall be saved” (Rom 10:9). You are directly opposing Rom 10:9.
Your statement of "one cannot believe something unless they do believe it" is circular.

Whatever Synergy. You keep repeating yourself. There is an expression, "Live and learn," but one has to be willing first.

I did. You wrote, "Romans 10:8-17 is not giving the chronological order of salvation" and I wrote that Rom 10:8-17 is written in sequences. You even made mention of some of those sequences in your previous paragraph.

You are reading it as a sequence, but it is not a sequence. One cannot confess something, and one cannot believe something unless they do believe it, and then and only then can they confess it. So the action does not precede the believing and confessing. Confessing is not what saves us, it is a result of being saved. Only those who are regenerated will call on the name of the Lord (John 6). And one cannot believe something they have not heard, so hearing is necessary to believing. A bit of logic is necessary.

So that takes us back to my question: why do already-saved people need to be saved again?

Already save people need to know what is being taught and why it is being taught and how it relates to other things and circumstances and people. It is called learning. He isn't calling them to salvation and that misconception you have and will not let go of, is why you cannot comprehend anything that is said to you about it. His recipients are already saved. He is writing to a church. He is teaching, not what they are to do in order to be saved, for they have already don it, but explaining it in contrast to unbelieving Jews. Faith as opposed to works is the subject. He is teaching!! If you consider the entire letter and how it covers the great scope of the road to salvation from all people being guilty of transgression against God through the Sinai covenant with Israel, to the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ, you would be able to see that. In short he is preaching who Christ is, why He came. what He did, and what that does, clear through to the future promise for the believer in the fullness of our salvation. Are you never taught any of that by a pastor in church on Sunday morning? Do you ever think that he is saying already saved people need to be saved again? So why do you lay such a ludicrous accusation on Paul? The reason is that you have decided that Rom 10:9 is giving a chronological order of salvation when it is not. I won't say it again.

Titus 3:5 does tell us. Titus 3:5 has regeneration at "saved" which Rom 10:8-17 has after hearing, believing, and confessing. There's nothing hidden about Titus 3:5 nor about Rom 10:8-17. It's there in black and white. Now if you don't want to acknowledge those verses and call it "God's hidden will" well that's another story altogether.

Again you are conflating two passages that are dealing with two different things and for different reasons and superimposing you misconception of Romans 10:8-17 as giving a chronological order of salvation onto Titus 3:5. What does John 3 say about regeneration? It is John 3 in the exchange with Nicodemus that throws light on Titus 3:5, not Romans 10:8-17.

Your premise for your argument is wrong.

 

[Josheb]

So it's clearer to me now that you do not believe that it's about unsaved people that Rom 10:8-17 is referring to.

Sorta. I was gonna say, "God, at least you have correctly understood me," but that's not quite true. Let me clarify. Romans 10 was not written about unsaved people, but what can apply to yet-to-be-saved Jews or Israel cannot be applied to atheists. The unsaved of Israel are not atheists. They believe in God. Atheists do not believe any god exists. Romans 10 is a not about atheists. You've made it applicable to atheists and done so without justification.

In light of that, here is my reply specifically about your comments about salvation tenses and about your declaration that "very little of it is written about non-believers who would be saved".

The Bible does in fact differentiate between past, present, and future savings.

Right there you failed.

We are not taking about "the Bible." We are talking about the Romans 10 text, not the rest of the Bible. We are talking about one specific verse that you believe makes the passage applicable to the unsaved AND you do so despite all the markers (the audience affiliations) in the passage explicitly and specifically being about people who either believe in gods or God, or people who are saved in Christ (and necessarily believe in the one God, the Father who sent His Son).


So the entirety of Post #56 was a waste of your time and effort. The points made were dodged. You said you were going to reply specifically about my comments about salvation tenses" but completely ignored the Romans 10 text. I could have said A LOTmore about the tenses were I to survey the entire Bible but the text in question is the Romans 10 text you specified.

So my question is: which salvific phase is Rom 10:8-17 talking about?

(Rom 10:9) Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Answer: It's clearly referring to the Atonement phase of our salvation.

No, it is not. This is another assumption on your part.


You said you were going to specifically "reply specifically about your comments about salvation tenses and about your declaration that "very little of it is written about non-believers who would be saved" and that did not happen. Try it again.

Start with something basic: which specific verse is explicitly stated to be to and about the atheist?

 

[Arial]

If you don't know already, read up on what "imputes"/"imputed" means and how it explains how Christ's righteousness effects our salvation. Paul uses that term at least 7 times in Romans. It's a foundational pillar of the Reformation.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also says of the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness without works,
Rom 4:8 blessed is the man to whom the Lord will in no way impute sin."
Rom 4:11 And he received a sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith while still uncircumcised; so that he might be the father of all those believing through uncircumcision, for righteousness to be imputed to them also;
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for him alone that it was imputed to him,
Rom 4:24 but for us also to whom it is to be imputed, to the ones believing on Him who has raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

You completely changed the subject to imputed when the discussion was Rom 10:9.

I took your "it had never experienced apostolic ministry" swipe as a hit against the RC Church's Apostolic claim. It's hilarious how you went into a ecstatic frenzy thinking you were teaching me what the names of Epistles signify. Even a 5 year old child can understand that and you have certainly shown that your knowledge reaches at least that level. Well done!

Cut out the personal insults or suffer the consequences. I will give a bit of lee way this once because I suspect you were embarrassed by the gaff.

Why would you think my saying the church in Rome had never experienced personal apostolic ministry as a hit against the RCC's apostolic claim? And then say that I was supporting that claim whereas here you say it was a swipe at it. I will show you what is meant by apostolic ministry in scripture. The apostles i.e., the disciples minus Judas, his replacement, and Paul were given a commission by Jesus to take the gospel to all nations. They were called to lay the foundation of His church, with Him as the chief cornerstone. That foundation is nothing less than the teachings, or doctrines, of His church. And that is what we have in the NT epistles. This is what the apostles were doing---and they planted churches, others came in and watered, and God caused the growth. So a great majority of these churches during their lifetime were either planted by them or visited by them to keep an eye on what was being taught, answer questions, clear up disputes, encourage etc. The church in Rome had not been planted by one of the apostles and it had not been personally visited by an apostle. So "it had not experienced apostolic ministry" means just that.

 

[Josheb]

The only reason I.....

Sorta. I.........

You......

If I may.....

We've all gotten off-topic. The op is a personal protest defending the practice of straw men by denying they are ever committed. Is there anyone here who thinks @justbyfaith doesn't argue straw men? If not, then help him out because he doesn't see it. Perhaps if the Cals and the Arms collaborate to speak with one voice on the matter, he'll make some changes.

Then we can all go back to the first time @Synergy tried to argue for a volitionalist reading of Romans 10 (because this thread is not the first time that's been attempted).