Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and John 6:37

[brightfame52]

Again, if regeneration precedes faith, then faith isn't really needed because regeneration can happen apart from faith (which is abject heresy).

Again, coming to Christ denotes Spiritual life, and Spiritual Life denotes regeneration.

 

[TMSO]

Again, coming to Christ denotes Spiritual life, and Spiritual Life denotes regeneration.

An issue I have seen in the past is that some define regeneration as salvation, not as our dead spirit being brough to life. They see salvation and regeneration as the same exact thing, and inseperable. Until there is an understanding as to what Calvinists mean by regeneration, and they are willing to accept it as an acceptable definition of regeneration, the fact that the terminology does not match up is a stopping point. (I hit that stopping point, but the moment I came to understand/accept what regeneration actually is, it snapped into place.)

 

[brightfame52]

An issue I have seen in the past is that some define regeneration as salvation, not as our dead spirit being brough to life. They see salvation and regeneration as the same exact thing, and inseperable. Until there is an understanding as to what Calvinists mean by regeneration, and they are willing to accept it as an acceptable definition of regeneration, the fact that the terminology does not match up is a stopping point. (I hit that stopping point, but the moment I came to understand/accept what regeneration actually is, it snapped into place.)

Regeneration is an aspect of Salvation, its the impartation of Spiritual life, being saved from spiritual alienation and death in trespasses and sins

 

[TMSO]

Regeneration is an aspect of Salvation, its the impartation of Spiritual life, being saved from spiritual alienation and death in trespasses and sins

The people I have spoken to who have issues with regeneration, it is because they have defined regeneration to be the same as salvation. So, faith cannot come after salvation, but before, therefore faith cannot come after regeneration but before. It causes a dissonance in understanding a Calvinist who says that regeneration precedes faith.

 

[Arial]

I beg to differ.

Eph 5:14, Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Here, the dead is actually asleep; and is able to be wakened; and to be awakened is to rise from the dead.

Someone who is asleep is most certainly able to be wakened.

Does the sleeper in this passage wake himself or is there a he who commands him to wake? That is just to point out the fallacy of your argument. Next we will go on to the fact that you have supported and unsupportable doctrine by misusing an isolated text that is not even speaking of the order of salvation but rather is being used in the context of moral instruction for those who have already been raised to spiritual life by the finger of God.

In addition it is most likely according to historians and scholars a portion of a hymn that was sung and well known. If so it likely is related to Is 60 which begins, Arise, shine for you light has come,and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you. For behold,darkness shall cover the earth and thick darkness the peoples; but the Lord will arise upon you, and his glory will be seen upon you. And nations shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising,

 

[Arial]

Again, if regeneration precedes faith, then faith isn't really needed because regeneration can happen apart from faith (which is abject heresy).

Hey, why don't you do us all a favor and give an explicit definition of what you say regeneration is? At least that way we will know whether or not we are talking about the same thing.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hey, why don't you do us all a favor and give an explicit definition of what you say regeneration is? At least that way we will know whether or not we are talking about the same thing.

new life (being born again by and through faith).

 

[justbyfaith]

Does the sleeper in this passage wake himself or is there a he who commands him to wake? That is just to point out the fallacy of your argument. Next we will go on to the fact that you have supported and unsupportable doctrine by misusing an isolated text that is not even speaking of the order of salvation but rather is being used in the context of moral instruction for those who have already been raised to spiritual life by the finger of God.

In addition it is most likely according to historians and scholars a portion of a hymn that was sung and well known. If so it likely is related to Is 60 which begins, Arise, shine for you light has come,and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you. For behold,darkness shall cover the earth and thick darkness the peoples; but the Lord will arise upon you, and his glory will be seen upon you. And nations shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising,

When the Holy Spirit draws him, it is like an alarm clock going off and he has the option of either hitting the snooze button and going back into the sleep of spiritual death or else waking entirely up and going about his day.

 

[TMSO]

When the Holy Spirit draws him, it is like an alarm clock going off and he has the option of either hitting the snooze button and going back into the sleep of spiritual death or else waking entirely up and going about his day.

You can't go back to spiritual death as though you can thwart God yourself. Consider Paul. Jesus came to him and jolted his dead spirit to life. The words Jesus had for Saul crushed and killed him. Only Paul survived. Try and say that Saul had a choice. Saul had no choice. There was no snooze button. When God dealt with Paul, it was NOW, and it was FINAL. When God comes for you, you will not escape.

 

[Arial]

When the Holy Spirit draws him, it is like an alarm clock going off and he has the option of either hitting the snooze button and going back into the sleep of spiritual death or else waking entirely up and going about his day.

Hmmmm. Nope. I couldn't even begin to consider that as truth without something from Scripture to demonstrate it.

 

[Arial]

new life (being born again by and through faith).

OK. That is not what I would call explicit. It doesn't really tell me anything. What is this faith in and how does one get it? Why would it be called regeneration? Where does it come from. How does one make it happen? Who/what causes it to happen?

 

[justbyfaith]

Hmmmm. Nope. I couldn't even begin to consider that as truth without something from Scripture to demonstrate it.

Ephesians 5:13.

 

[justbyfaith]

OK. That is not what I would call explicit. It doesn't really tell me anything. What is this faith in and how does one get it? Why would it be called regeneration? Where does it come from. How does one make it happen? Who/what causes it to happen?

The blood of Jesus is applied to our sins when we place our faith in Him and what He did for us on the Cross (Romans 5:9). This cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7). Jesus causes it to happen by the power of His blood.

To have the blood applied, one does not need to first be born again,

There is an open door in everyone's life; where Jesus can apply His blood and, in that, the person will be cleansed from all sin and the Holy Spirit can then come and dwell within him

 

[Arial]

The blood of Jesus is applied to our sins when we place our faith in Him and what He did for us on the Cross (Romans 5:9). This cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7). Jesus causes it to happen by the power of His blood.

That would be in direct contradiction to an earlier statement that we have to meet certain conditions first. But that aside, how are we to put faith in something or someone we are unable to even understand let alone believe, because they are spiritual and can only be spiritually understood? (1 Cor 2:14; John 3) And what did Jesus mean when He said in John 3 that a man cannot even see the kingdom of heaven unless he is first born again, let alone enter it?

There is an open door in everyone's life; where Jesus can apply His blood and, in that, the person will be cleansed from all sin and the Holy Spirit can then come and dwell within him

That is why I mentioned earlier a new occupation for you of writing children's books, rather than on Bible interpretation posts here. As I read that I can see clearly in my mind the illustrations in such a book that would go along with it. The only problem is, it is completely made up, not given any Scripture support that one could counter or even relate to. It took a presupposition and then snatches of word pictures from here and there in the scriptures, to build with. Invalid.

 

[Arial]

Ephesians 5:13.

Too be clear, I will re post your post it supposedly relates to.

When the Holy Spirit draws him, it is like an alarm clock going off and he has the option of either hitting the snooze button and going back into the sleep of spiritual death or else waking entirely up and going about his day.

Eph 5:13 But when anything is exposed to the light, it becomes visible,
As we can see, and as per usual as you proof text your way through the Bible, this verse ends with a comma, which means there is more to come. And as it begins with the word "but" it is directly related to what came before. I will post it so you don't have to look it up---but to summarize, Paul is talking to believers, not unbelievers, and his subject is how we are to walk before God, not kidding ourselves that anything is hidden from Him.






5 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

3 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not become partners with them; 8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 10 and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. 13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, 14 for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says,

“Awake, O sleeper,
and arise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”
15 Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the best use of the time, because the days are evil.

 

[justbyfaith]

That would be in direct contradiction to an earlier statement that we have to meet certain conditions first. But that aside, how are we to put faith in something or someone we are unable to even understand let alone believe, because they are spiritual and can only be spiritually understood? (1 Cor 2:14; John 3) And what did Jesus mean when He said in John 3 that a man cannot even see the kingdom of heaven unless he is first born again, let alone enter it?

That is why I mentioned earlier a new occupation for you of writing children's books, rather than on Bible interpretation posts here. As I read that I can see clearly in my mind the illustrations in such a book that would go along with it. The only problem is, it is completely made up, not given any Scripture support that one could counter or even relate to. It took a presupposition and then snatches of word pictures from here and there in the scriptures, to build with. Invalid.

I get my doctrine from reading my Bible on a regular basis.

 

[TMSO]

I get my doctrine from reading my Bible on a regular basis.

Do you think that Apollos in Acts might have said the same thing? Yet Aquilla and Priscilla took him aside and taught him "correctly". That is, while he had the gist, he didn't have everything correct. They corrected his understanding, and scripture says that he became mighty for God because of it. Consider what is being said. Understand that regeneration/born again in the Calvinist terminology is the natural man, who cannot understand the things of God, let alone the gospel, is made alive, and thus can understand the gospel of God, and be cut to the quick by it. This results in faith, belief, and ultimately salvation. Without this "regeneration" faith, let alone belief, is not possible. (True faith that leads to belief and salvation.) John 6. Groups came to Jesus for at least 3 reasons. The Jews, to make Jesus their king so they could get free meals. Others through word of mouth, or a desire to hear what Jesus had to say. These ultimately leave once their curiosity is satisfied, they get angry, or any other reason why they turn around a leave. They are unchanged. Then the disciples, drawn by the Father, taught by the Father, who stayed when everyone else left.

 

[Carbon]

Because in certain Calvinistic circles, it is contended that the following understanding does not accurately portray true Calvinism:

That I stand at a door, over which the inscription is written, "Whosoever will, let him come"...

And that when I enter in through that door, I will find a table and a place at it with my nametag; and that when I look back at the other side of the doors, I see the inscription written on the door, "Predestined from before the foundations of the world"

The contention being that in true Calvinism, the person who is first outside the door cannot enter in if his nametag is not inside the door.

To which I say, Can he not enter in, from the perspective of being outside the door?

Jesus said that any who will come to Him He will in no wise cast out (John 6:37).

Now, there is an answer even within Calvinism.

That the one whose nametag is not found inside the door would never be inclined to enter in.

But I want to deal with the misconception that may come up when a person is introduced to Calvinistic theology, that a person may be found unable to come to Christ over the fact that he is of the non-elect. (No one knows whether they are of the elect until they make a decision to come to Christ.)

The reality is that if anyone comes to Christ, it is the proof that he is of the elect!

Thus the decision to come to Christ may be looked back upon as a catalyst or reason why that person is found in the kingdom.

Question:
Did you notice that this is written to the church(s)? Why do you twist it to teach synergism, free will theology?

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

 

[Carbon]

Already you have strayed into 'strawman' territory. Every person has a choice, but until God regenerates them, they will not choose Christ. They may even think they have chosen Christ, and responded to the Altar Call, and 'yielded their life', and so on, but they have not actually done so, because they are dead and powerless. They will always choose contrary to God, with whom they remain at enmity. Eph 2, Rom 8

You exhibit here the tendency of self-determinists, who interpret what is sure to happen as "no choice". We always choose what will happen.

Amen.

I think mature Christians know that if Jesus were to knock on a dead sinner's heart for access, he would be denied.

Man becomes a God seeker only after he is regenerated.

 

[Carbon]

So, someone who chooses to come to Christ,

No one chooes to come to Christ. Assuming you mean the ones who are lost sinners.

his choice is invalid; and God's choice to condemn him will prevail over his decision to receive Christ.

Again, the lost sinner will not accept Christ.

Thus, Jesus casts out some of those who come to Him;

Nope. Those who come to a jesus their minds have created can't accept or cast them out because he is imaginary.

which is contrary to scripture (John 6:37).

Those are your (unbiblical) beliefs, not scripture.