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A proposition (Calvinistic or no?)

So, there was never a time when the elect was not of the elect?
God "decided", (to put it in human terminology), who to create "before", (again to use human terminology), creating time. To put it another way, for humans' temporal thinking, "God planned creation before creating." The elect were part of that plan. He did not make his choice subsequent to creation.
So, I take it that your answer is that you believe that there was never a time when the elect was not of the elect.

But I would urge you to consider Romans 9:25-26.

Here, there is a people who were not His people, who are now His people.

What? They were not predestined from before the foundations of the world (for they were not His people);?

They were not always His people?

It just goes to show that there was a moment in time wherein they crossed over from death unto life.

While those with a Calvinistic bias would reject the plain interpretation, I would say that Romans 10:9-13 tells us plainly that there are two or three things that we must do in order to procure salvation.

As soon as we do these things, we can know most assuredly that we are of the elect.

Acts 2:38-29 also sets forth a conditional promise; that if you fulfill the condition, you will receive the promise.

The promise: remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The condition: repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins.

Simple.

An absolute promise that you can bank on.
 
I would mention, also, that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world according to 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 4:10, and 2 Corinthians 5:14-15.

Those who have a Calvinistic bias would attempt to say that "all" in these verses means "all" (without distinction), rather than "all" (without exception).

I would say to this that the clearest meaning for the word "all" is that it means "all" (without exception).

Now, I know that you can find passages where "all" means "all" without distinction (not without exception); however this only strengthens my case; as in the passages that I bring forth to you, it cannot be proven that "all" is not without exception.

Clearly, if we take these scriptures at face value, they speak of Jesus dying for everyone (without exception).

Therefore, the only reason why a person might not be saved is if they chose against Christ.

The Calvinistic view allows for this. In Calvinism, it is said that those who are of the non-elect are condemned, not because God didn't choose them; but because of their own sin.

This would indicate that the non-elect are such because they never repented of their sins; and that those who are of the elect are of the elect because they did.

Otherwise the non-elect are cast into the lake of fire because of an arbitrary decision on God's part. The decision God makes is entirely up to His will and whim...and has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of response to the gospel message on the part of the sinner.

Nevertheless, we have established that those who receive, believe in, and follow Christ, are of the elect; while those who do not are of the non-elect.

In their zeal to defend some idea of the sovereignty of the Lord, some Calvinists teach that God is the first cause in all of this; and yet the same Calvinists cannot answer the indictment on God that this theology brings up.

If God is the first cause of everything, then He is responsible, also, for such things as murder and rape and incest.

Thus, in defending His sovereignty and power, certain Calvinists compromise the truth of God's holiness and righteousness.

Fact is, God gave Adam and Eve a choice in the garden.

Since the Cross (John 12:32) every person has also been given an ample choice to either receive or reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour from sin.

If someone wants to keep their sin, God does not force them to give it up.

He draws them to Himself by His Spirit (John 6:44).

And where His Spirit is, there is freedom (2 Corinthians 3:17);

And therefore in being drawn, force is not enacted to bring that person kicking and screaming to Christ. God will not force them to receive Him as Lord.

But for those who are in the kingdom, He is in fact their Lord.

I contend that they must be willing subjects.

Psa 110:3, Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
 
OT: You would agree, I think, that to God there is no paradox, as he doesn't assess substance to human concepts and words the way we do. I think the answer (or at least, AN answer) to this can be found in the two philosophical attributes, "Transcendence" and "Immanence". but I guess that's a paradox to us there, too, and though I try to explain it to myself even, I can't describe it. I only have a feel for it, of sorts. It makes sense to me.

He is that much above us that his plan is above ("swallows up") the whole envelope of time. And he is also so totally, intimately, involved in every detail, that our notions of cause don't approach fact. See? I told you I can't describe it!

But the self-determinists insist on lowering him to our economy of being, to the rules of creation —not of Creator. Their math of their equations does not comprehend infinity.
That gives me comfort ... an OMNI-Creator that I could fully comprehend would likely be a human construct. I can't even understand how LIGHT can be a Particle and a Wave ... so how can I expect to fully understand EVERYTHING about the Mind that created LIGHT?
 
I would mention, also, that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world according to 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 4:10, and 2 Corinthians 5:14-15.

Those who have a Calvinistic bias would attempt to say that "all" in these verses means "all" (without distinction), rather than "all" (without exception).

I would say to this that the clearest meaning for the word "all" is that it means "all" (without exception).

Now, I know that you can find passages where "all" means "all" without distinction (not without exception); however this only strengthens my case; as in the passages that I bring forth to you, it cannot be proven that "all" is not without exception.

Clearly, if we take these scriptures at face value, they speak of Jesus dying for everyone (without exception).

Therefore, the only reason why a person might not be saved is if they chose against Christ.

The Calvinistic view allows for this. In Calvinism, it is said that those who are of the non-elect are condemned, not because God didn't choose them; but because of their own sin.

This would indicate that the non-elect are such because they never repented of their sins; and that those who are of the elect are of the elect because they did.

Otherwise the non-elect are cast into the lake of fire because of an arbitrary decision on God's part. The decision God makes is entirely up to His will and whim...and has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of response to the gospel message on the part of the sinner.

Nevertheless, we have established that those who receive, believe in, and follow Christ, are of the elect; while those who do not are of the non-elect.

In their zeal to defend some idea of the sovereignty of the Lord, some Calvinists teach that God is the first cause in all of this; and yet the same Calvinists cannot answer the indictment on God that this theology brings up.

If God is the first cause of everything, then He is responsible, also, for such things as murder and rape and incest.

Thus, in defending His sovereignty and power, certain Calvinists compromise the truth of God's holiness and righteousness.

Fact is, God gave Adam and Eve a choice in the garden.

Since the Cross (John 12:32) every person has also been given an ample choice to either receive or reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour from sin.

If someone wants to keep their sin, God does not force them to give it up.

He draws them to Himself by His Spirit (John 6:44).

And where His Spirit is, there is freedom (2 Corinthians 3:17);

And therefore in being drawn, force is not enacted to bring that person kicking and screaming to Christ. God will not force them to receive Him as Lord.

But for those who are in the kingdom, He is in fact their Lord.

I contend that they must be willing subjects.

Psa 110:3, Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Your reasoning is still running backwards. Coincidence is not causation. God comes first. Only God can do new.
 
There is the concept when considering Calvinism that, "I may not be one of the elect; and therefore, if I am not, choosing Christ will not avail for me."
That's not the Calvinist's Syllogism...

P1 - I may not be Elect...
Conclusion - If I'm not Elect, Choosing Christ will not avail me...

This is the Syllogism of the Anti Calvinist and the Hyper Calvinist...


Choosing Christ as your LORD and Savior will avail All who call on the Name of the Lord...
 
I would mention, also, that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world according to 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 4:10, and 2 Corinthians 5:14-15.

Those who have a Calvinistic bias would attempt to say that "all" in these verses means "all" (without distinction), rather than "all" (without exception).

I would say to this that the clearest meaning for the word "all" is that it means "all" (without exception).
1 John 2:1-2 [NASB]
"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world."

  • How will we properly exegete this passage:
  • What does it mean that Jesus is the "propitiation"? What [EXACTLY] did that propitiation accomplish?
  • What does that [His propitiation] mean for "My little children"?
  • What does that [His propitiation] mean for "the whole world"?
  • How will you avoid "Universalism"? [which scripture clearly denies]
  • Why is the OVERALL SUBJECT "Saints that sin having an advocate" rather than "soteriology"?
Do we have the tail wagging the dog by making the clause at the end the driving subject of the paragraph?
 
Let's establish here what is believed by Calvinists.

What does every Calvinist here have to say of the following proposition?

There is the concept when considering Calvinism that, "I may not be one of the elect; and therefore, if I am not, choosing Christ will not avail for me."

Pastor Chuck Smith put it this way: "If you choose Christ, you will find that you are of the elect."

An analogy has been given,

"Everyone at some point stands outside a door and written on the top is "whosoever will, let him come".

Those who enter in by that door will find a heavenly table with a place set specifically for them with a nametag with their name written on it at their place at the table. They look back at the door and it says, "Predestined from before the foundations of the world."

Accurate or inaccurate to Calvinistic teaching?

I would like to get a bunch of responses from different Calvinists on this one.
This is what's happening; you're setting the table...

You are setting your table in your OP with the Premise that Election is Salvation; I, a Calvinist, don't want to sit at your table and eat what you are dishing out. Jesus taught that if the Trodden Soil/Hard heart would believe the Gospel, he would have to Save them...

The Holy Spirit set us a table, called the Bible. I sit at the Lord’s table. He said whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be Saved; are you sitting at this table with me? If so, every Calvinist in the world is sitting with us. But your OP has set a kid's table, where you want us to sit at and be served by you a spoon full of "If I'm not Elect, Choosing Christ will not avail me ". You can't feed us this. On Christ's table, there is a spoon full of "If the Seed were not carried away, they would turn and I will have to heal them "...

In my years on Forums, I know this won't matter to you. You will insist we sit at the table you set for us in your OP, and eat a helping of your "Choosing Christ will not avail me". Of course Choosing Christ will avail anyone! Calvinists are Sola Fidests. Get us to defending "Faith Alone ", and you'll see it. But you set a table in such a way that the uninformed are susceptible to you...

Let's see if you'll sit at the Lord’s table with us for a minute. All who call on the name of the Lord shall be Saved; right?
 
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Let's see if you'll sit at the Lord’s table with us for a minute. All who call on the name of the Lord shall be Saved; right?
Right.

Joel 2:28-32 [NKJV]
28 "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. 29 And also on [My] menservants and on [My] maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. 30 "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. 32 And it shall come to pass [That] whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.

Acts 2:14-21 [NKJV]
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 "For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is [only] the third hour of the day. 16 "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. 21 And it shall come to pass [That] whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'

[I like whole paragraphs.] :cool:
That's US ... we have His Spirit poured out on us. It "came to pass" that God did it, just as He said He would.
 
But if God is the first cause of everything, is He not also responsible for such things as murder and rape and incest?
This is true for Adam, right?

It's Federal Headship, Adam is our Federal Head, not God. In saying what you just said, you show us all that you have no reason to reject the Doctrine of Original Sin. But if you reject Original Sin, why insist God is Culpable as our Head; but Adam isn't? It would be Special Pleading to accept guilt for one but no the other, right?
 
Right.

Joel 2:28-32 [NKJV]
28 "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. 29 And also on [My] menservants and on [My] maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. 30 "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. 32 And it shall come to pass [That] whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.

Acts 2:14-21 [NKJV]
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 "For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is [only] the third hour of the day. 16 "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. 21 And it shall come to pass [That] whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'

[I like whole paragraphs.] :cool:
That's US ... we have His Spirit poured out on us. It "came to pass" that God did it, just as He said He would.
I used the 'Setting the Table ' Analogy on him, to show him he's 'Leading the Witness'. Another Analogy is 'Painting the Picture ' for us. He will want us to only focus on his point...

But we All sit at the Lord’s Table...

He wouldn't be allowed to lead the witness in a Court of Law. If the Lurkers know this, it will help. Lurkers, Calvinists believe Whosoever calls on the Name of the Lord shall be Saved...
 
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I used the 'Setting the Table ' Analogy on him, to show him he's 'Leading the Witness'. Another Analogy is 'Painting the Picture ' for us. He will want us to only focus on his point...

But we All sit at the Lord’s Table...
I agree.

I also acknowledge that "man chooses God" advocates have some valid points ... for example 1 John 2:2 is a verse that needs to be HONESTLY discussed but is often glassed over with a quick and dirty mediocre response, or falls victim to "scripture pong" [a popular sport for both sides of the debate] or is eisegeted with a response that is, frankly, just BAD.

It is not that it CANNOT be addressed, it is more that it is seldom HONESTLY discussed. For that reason, we need "them" to keep throwing it in our face so we at least remember that it exists. ;) [Then we can quote John 6:44 and return to Romans 9 and Ephesians 2.] :ROFLMAO:
 
While those with a Calvinistic bias would reject the plain interpretation, I would say that Romans 10:9-13 tells us plainly that there are two or three things that we must do in order to procure salvation.

As soon as we do these things, we can know most assuredly that we are of the elect.

Acts 2:38-29 also sets forth a conditional promise; that if you fulfill the condition, you will receive the promise.

The promise: remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The condition: repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins.

Simple.
Non-calvinists always dwell on the EFFECTS of salvation and don't determine the CAUSE.
I'm a hammer and I see myself banging nails and affixing a board being a wall and assume the cause of myself because I am a dumb hammer I don't notice a hand and arm that was directed me to bang the nails and affix the board to the wall. I therefore assume I am the CAUSE.
You do the same thing as the hammer .... you repent and believe Jesus died for you and assume you are the CAUSE. You don't understand there is a force CAUSING you to repent and believe. Study verses that address the CAUSE of your salvation and stop assuming that the EFFECTS of salvation are self-determined.
Verses like:
John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

Job 35:7-8 says God is not influenced by us so everything we do must be an EFFECT and never a CAUSE of God doing "X" or "Y"; saving us or not saving us.

Your WILL is not self-determined... that is circular logic ... you can't will what you desire... your desires come from an external source and therefore it is impossible to self-determine.

etc. etc. etc.
 
Non-calvinists always dwell on the EFFECTS of salvation and don't determine the CAUSE.
I'm a hammer and I see myself banging nails and affixing a board being a wall and assume the cause of myself because I am a dumb hammer I don't notice a hand and arm that was directed me to bang the nails and affix the board to the wall. I therefore assume I am the CAUSE.
You do the same thing as the hammer .... you repent and believe Jesus died for you and assume you are the CAUSE. You don't understand there is a force CAUSING you to repent and believe. Study verses that address the CAUSE of your salvation and stop assuming that the EFFECTS of salvation are self-determined.
Verses like:
John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

Job 35:7-8 says God is not influenced by us so everything we do must be an EFFECT and never a CAUSE of God doing "X" or "Y"; saving us or not saving us.

Your WILL is not self-determined... that is circular logic ... you can't will what you desire... your desires come from an external source and therefore it is impossible to self-determine.

etc. etc. etc.
THIS really is Freddy's area of expertise. (I know, I have argued Secondary causes with him in private and been "hammered" by his "First Cause arguments.) [He was correct and I just like puns.] :D
 
THIS really is Freddy's area of expertise. (I know, I have argued Secondary causes with him in private and been "hammered" by his "First Cause arguments.) [He was correct and I just like puns.]
I learn a lot more from you than vise versa. Plus we agreed alot which is pleasant. :cool:

I like what @makesends says too .... except when he explains the details of God's incomprehensibility. *giggle*
 
Those who have a Calvinistic bias would attempt to say that "all" in these verses means "all" (without distinction), rather than "all" (without exception).

I would say to this that the clearest meaning for the word "all" is that it means "all" (without exception).

Now, I know that you can find passages where "all" means "all" without distinction (not without exception); however this only strengthens my case; as in the passages that I bring forth to you, it cannot be proven that "all" is not without exception.
Good explanation of the word "ALL" from Reformed point of view with one slight change needed. We don't claim we know whether or not the word ALL in many verses means "without exception" or "without distinction" if we look at its use in a particular verse. Rather, we state that one should go to other verses for clarity with the understanding that God doesn't contradict Himself ... one can also use logic or empirical evidence as proof.
 
Let's establish here what is believed by Calvinists.

What does every Calvinist here have to say of the following proposition?

There is the concept when considering Calvinism that, "I may not be one of the elect; and therefore, if I am not, choosing Christ will not avail for me."

Pastor Chuck Smith put it this way: "If you choose Christ, you will find that you are of the elect."

An analogy has been given,

"Everyone at some point stands outside a door and written on the top is "whosoever will, let him come".

Those who enter in by that door will find a heavenly table with a place set specifically for them with a nametag with their name written on it at their place at the table. They look back at the door and it says, "Predestined from before the foundations of the world."

Accurate or inaccurate to Calvinistic teaching?

I would like to get a bunch of responses from different Calvinists on this one.
If you believe in the person and work of Jesus alone to save you from your sins you are of the elect.
 
This is what's happening; you're setting the table...

You are setting your table in your OP with the Premise that Election is Salvation; I, a Calvinist, don't want to sit at your table and eat what you are dishing out. Jesus taught that if the Trodden Soil/Hard heart would believe the Gospel, he would have to Save them...

The Holy Spirit set us a table, called the Bible. I sit at the Lord’s table. He said whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be Saved; are you sitting at this table with me? If so, every Calvinist in the world is sitting with us. But your OP has set a kid's table, where you want us to sit at and be served by you a spoon full of "If I'm not Elect, Choosing Christ will not avail me ". You can't feed us this. On Christ's table, there is a spoon full of "If the Seed were not carried away, they would turn and I will have to heal them "...

In my years on Forums, I know this won't matter to you. You will insist we sit at the table you set for us in your OP, and eat a helping of your "Choosing Christ will not avail me". Of course Choosing Christ will avail anyone! Calvinists are Sola Fidests. Get us to defending "Faith Alone ", and you'll see it. But you set a table in such a way that the uninformed are susceptible to you...

Let's see if you'll sit at the Lord’s table with us for a minute. All who call on the name of the Lord shall be Saved; right?
Most definitely, all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Which means that if anyone calls on the name of the Lord, they shall be saved.

And of course it is my contention that Jesus will not cast out anyone who comes to Him.

While there is a doctrine inherent in Calvinism that in fact denies this; as much as you may protest that you don't believe it as a Calvinist.

That our coming to God is based solely on whether or not we are chosen by God.

It brings up the idea (though it may be a misconception, it must be corrected) that if I am not chosen by God, I will not be accepted even if I choose Him.

As one Calvinistic poster said, Esau was hated by God and therefore God would not have accepted him even if he had somehow chosen Christ!
 
This is true for Adam, right?

It's Federal Headship, Adam is our Federal Head, not God. In saying what you just said, you show us all that you have no reason to reject the Doctrine of Original Sin. But if you reject Original Sin, why insist God is Culpable as our Head; but Adam isn't? It would be Special Pleading to accept guilt for one but no the other, right?
So, Adam is the first cause of everything that is evil?

That would indicate that God is not the first cause of everything.
 
Non-calvinists always dwell on the EFFECTS of salvation and don't determine the CAUSE.
I'm a hammer and I see myself banging nails and affixing a board being a wall and assume the cause of myself because I am a dumb hammer I don't notice a hand and arm that was directed me to bang the nails and affix the board to the wall. I therefore assume I am the CAUSE.
You do the same thing as the hammer .... you repent and believe Jesus died for you and assume you are the CAUSE.
Can the hand of the one who uses the hammer, hammer in the nails without the hammer?
 
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