Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and John 6:37

[Josheb]

Jhn 19:19, And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Jhn 19:20, This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
Jhn 19:21, Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.
Jhn 19:22, Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.

2 Kings 2:23-25
Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!" When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number. He went from there to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria.

I can quote scripture, too.

 

[justbyfaith]

Or, so goes your narrative.

What does "responsible" mean here? Did I imply that rape, murder and incest are directly from the heart of God?

But, "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us." Yes, it really is that simple. The temporal agony of the human soul doesn't even rise to the level of "collateral damage", by comparison. Why you would go to such trouble to extricate God from responsibility —no! from CREDIT!— for this whole temporal reality, is beyond me. God himself doesn't do it; why should you?

God in no way sets Himself forth to us as being unrighteous but you seem to be wanting to set Him forth as some sort of unrighteous being in character. You are saying that it is to God's CREDIT that there is murder and rape and incest? You are implying that these are good things! I question your righteousness.

 

[justbyfaith]

Once more. It is a necessary RESULT of regeneration. Not a requirement before regeneration. Your vague words do not establish heresy.

It is heresy to deny that Romans 8 is true: The unregenerate cannot do anything to please God, nor will they do anything except remain at enmity with God, until God regenerates them. If that's too vague for you, let me know.

Sorry, but to deny that regeneration comes as the result of faith is in fact heresy deserving of the greatest condemnation.

It implies that faith isn't even needed when the entire point of everything in holy scripture is to produce in the hearts of men a living and saving faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

It is logically impossible for the dead to do an alive thing.

I beg to differ.

Eph 5:14, Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Here, the dead is actually asleep; and is able to be wakened; and to be awakened is to rise from the dead.

Someone who is asleep is most certainly able to be wakened.

 

[justbyfaith]

You keep presenting completely fake, impossible, and utterly illogical, scenarios in order to argue your points. That is one reason some see this as obviously trollish behavior.

Someone cannot both be a "Calvinist" and also thinking that people can desire to choose God and God wouldn't let him. Read another way, no "Calvinist" would think that they personally desired to choose God and God wouldn't let them and walk away blaming God for his condemnation.

A completely vain and ridiculous statement.

Just so we are clear on that.

It follows that, since Jesus will not cast out anyone who comes to Him, that if anyone comes to Him, they are of the elect.

Therefore, I can look back on my coming to Him as being the catalyst and reason as to why I am in the kingdom.

 

[justbyfaith]

Since you word it like that-----why is God having free will a bad thing and you having free will is a necessary and good thing?

Because if I make the free will decision to either receive or reject Christ, and it is not based solely on God's choice, I am not shut out of the kingdom because of something that is beyond my control.

 

[justbyfaith]

Prove it.

Because the kjv says that; and therefore if the kjv and the NASB say essentially the same thing, so does the NASB.

 

[justbyfaith]

Every single verse you've cited. All of the epistloary and Revelation texts are written to and about people who are Christians. They are all already saved. The gospel texts are written about Jews, people who already believe in God and already live in a covenant relationship with God. None of them are atheist. At best your argument concerns only those God already knows covenantally. At worst you have this gigantic whole in your soteriology because none of it covers the person denying God's existence.

I think that you need to receive Jesus as your Lord and Saviour (and in this, you may be already saved)...

But you need to do it anyway.

 

[makesends]

I beg to differ.

Eph 5:14, Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Here, the dead is actually asleep; and is able to be wakened; and to be awakened is to rise from the dead.

Someone who is asleep is most certainly able to be wakened.

Notice, you said, "...to be wakened". And with that, you are exactly right, which is what Calvinism, Reformed Theology and I all teach.

 

[makesends]

Because if I make the free will decision to either receive or reject Christ, and it is not based solely on God's choice, I am not shut out of the kingdom because of something that is beyond my control.

Not to agree with your premise, but WHY is it a bad thing if God shuts you out of the kingdom? Do you somehow deserve it? Does God owe it to you? Is there something inherent in the creature that God owes him respect?

 

[makesends]

Just so we are clear on that.

It follows that, since Jesus will not cast out anyone who comes to Him, that if anyone comes to Him, they are of the elect.

Therefore, I can look back on my coming to Him as being the catalyst and reason as to why I am in the kingdom.

Yes, indeed, "It follows that, since Jesus will not cast out anyone who comes to Him, that if anyone comes to Him, they are of the elect." But you look at it backwards, or upside down, as the Bible puts it: You see yourself as the cause, and your election as the effect.

"Therefore" —that is, because you necessarily see yourself as the catalyst of a mechanical contrivance— it is plain that your look on the matter is humanocentric, self-deterministic and rebellious to God, refusing to see God as the originator, sustainer and finisher of life. YOU have made use of a formulaic principle that God has put into place. You may as well save yourself by keeping the law, for all the good your gospel does.

"Just so we are clear on that": To you, life is about you, and not about God.

 

[Arial]

Because if I make the free will decision to either receive or reject Christ, and it is not based solely on God's choice, I am not shut out of the kingdom because of something that is beyond my control.

So it is your preference that you control God? Do you realize what you are saying? That mankind can thwart God's will? That people can force there way into the kingdom. Of course it is also said that God would never force them into His kingdom and to do so would make Him manipulative and evil. It is always wise to think through what one says before they say it. And also make sure they are not making all their arguments from a straw man fallacy, that completely misconstrues the thing they are arguing against. But you do make quite clear that the issue in your case, is not really with Calvinism but with God. The desire to be in control of your own destiny without any interference from God? No trust in God?

 

[Arial]

Just so we are clear on that.

It follows that, since Jesus will not cast out anyone who comes to Him, that if anyone comes to Him, they are of the elect.

Therefore, I can look back on my coming to Him as being the catalyst and reason as to why I am in the kingdom.

You can do whatever you like. But why are you more comfortable doing that, which according to this reasoning and wording (which contradicts other things you have said) when you know better? Why is it more of a security to you to consider yourself the catalyst of your salvation rather than it being God who saves you due to nothing of yourself?

Your coming to Him is not the catalyst that brings you into the kingdom. The catalyst is God regenerating you so that you do come to Him.

 

[justbyfaith]

You can do whatever you like. But why are you more comfortable doing that, which according to this reasoning and wording (which contradicts other things you have said) when you know better? Why is it more of a security to you to consider yourself the catalyst of your salvation rather than it being God who saves you due to nothing of yourself?

Your coming to Him is not the catalyst that brings you into the kingdom. The catalyst is God regenerating you so that you do come to Him.

Again, you have regeneration happening before faith / coming to Him and therefore apart from faith / coming to Him.

This is an abject heresy since the Bible teaches throughout its pages that we are to come to Jesus Christ in faith and that this is unto salvation.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, indeed, "It follows that, since Jesus will not cast out anyone who comes to Him, that if anyone comes to Him, they are of the elect." But you look at it backwards, or upside down, as the Bible puts it: You see yourself as the cause, and your election as the effect.

"Therefore" —that is, because you necessarily see yourself as the catalyst of a mechanical contrivance— it is plain that your look on the matter is humanocentric, self-deterministic and rebellious to God, refusing to see God as the originator, sustainer and finisher of life. YOU have made use of a formulaic principle that God has put into place. You may as well save yourself by keeping the law, for all the good your gospel does.

"Just so we are clear on that": To you, life is about you, and not about God.

Yes indeed...my choice to receive Jesus as Lord and Saviour is the catalyst and reason for my being in the kingdom.

If it were not the case, then the resulting conclusion might be that mankind is not responsible for his decision to either receive or reject Christ.

Because my choice to receive Christ has an effect on my salvation, it means that those who do not receive Christ are accountable for their decision; and their judgment is just.

If I were unable to procure salvation by any means, then I could not be held accountable for my choice to reject salvation.

God would be held accountable as some kind of cosmic sadist who created certain people with the express purpose of casting them into everlasting burnings.

 

[Arial]

Let me just say that I believe that your understanding of Calvinism places you outside the kingdom (of the non-elect).

As a matter of fact, you have been predestined to hell and there is no possibility for you that you will ever be able to prevail on God for salvation.

Because you believe it is entirely God's choice, it means that you have not made the necessary choice.

And the default is damnation. So, in passing your choice off on God, you must realize that He is going to condemn you to everlasting torments.

I am leaving this up and reporting it so another mod can deal with you. I leave it up because you always deny that you have done what you do after your posts are no longer visible. But the next time you do something like this a permanent ban is going to happen, There is no excuse for it.

 

[justbyfaith]

I am leaving this up and reporting it so another mod can deal with you. I leave it up because you always deny that you have done what you do after your posts are no longer visible. But the next time you do something like this a permanent ban is going to happen, There is no excuse for it.

The very content that you deem inappropriate is exhibited by the doctrine of Calvinism, towards the non-Calvinist.

For does not Calvinism teach you that you may not be of the elect; and that if you are not, that there can be no redemption for you?

(deleted for false accusation)

 

[justbyfaith]

"Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not go unpunished".

 

[brightfame52]

Again, you have regeneration happening before faith / coming to Him and therefore apart from faith / coming to Him.

This is an abject heresy since the Bible teaches throughout its pages that we are to come to Jesus Christ in faith and that this is unto salvation.

But one cant come without having life. Isnt coming an activity of having life ? The elect come to Christ as new born babes, living stones 1 Pet 2:1-5

Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

This means one has to be regenerated, spiritually alive to come to Christ. The word coming in Vs 4 is the greek word proserchomai and it means to assent to or to consent to, and its spiritual action not carnal or natural. So Regeneration is prior to and unto faith in Christ, and that the True Christ, not the false christ who loved everybody, died for everybody and gives everybody a chance to accept him.

 

[justbyfaith]

But one cant come without having life. Isnt coming an activity of having life ? The elect come to Christ as new born babes, living stones 1 Pet 2:1-5

Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

This means one has to be regenerated, spiritually alive to come to Christ. The word coming in Vs 4 is the greek word proserchomai and it means to assent to or to consent to, and its spiritual action not carnal or natural. So Regeneration is prior to and unto faith in Christ, and that the True Christ, not the false christ who loved everybody, died for everybody and gives everybody a chance to accept him.

Again, if regeneration precedes faith, then faith isn't really needed because regeneration can happen apart from faith (which is abject heresy).