2Thessalonians 2 From an Orthodox Preterist Perspective

[3 Resurrections]

I just don't read 2Thess that way. I read it as the Second Coming. There's nothing in the passage to suggest an invisible coming in judgment.

I agree; it was the Second Coming. And it was visible to every eye of those who pierced Christ.

 

[Marty]

I just don't read 2Thess that way. I read it as the Second Coming. There's nothing in the passage to suggest an invisible coming in judgment.

If it was the second coming then why did some of them believe that it had already happened?

 

[Marty]

You see they understood the coming in judgements from the old testament like in the verse below

Isaiah 19:1
A prophecy against Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

 

[Red Baker]

I'll post tomorrow on this subject, one of my favorites to speak on.

3 Resurrections, you have been duped, my brother. Your extra biblical source has bewitched you, of course, we have been over this before, but one more time will not hurt younger believers who need to hear the truth

 

[Marty]

I'll post tomorrow on this subject, one of my favorites to speak on.

3 Resurrections, you have been duped, my brother. Your extra biblical source has bewitched you, of course, we have been over this before, but one more time will not hurt younger believers who need to hear the truth

Sorry but are you talking to me?

 

[3 Resurrections]

3 Resurrections, you have been duped, my brother. Your extra biblical source has bewitched you, of course, we have been over this before, but one more time will not hurt younger believers who need to hear the truth

I am depending on scripture's own definition of who the "lawless" were in that generation, and it was the Zealot cause which was present in Christ's day. The fulfilled prophecy was that Christ would be numbered with the "Lawless" in His death (Mark 15:27-28), and He was most definitely crucified between two Zealot insurrectionists. Barabbas was another Zealot who had done murder in that same insurrection (Mark 15:7). Christ even had a converted Zealot among His twelve disciples - Simon Zelotes.

The "Man of Lawlessness" as part of the "mystery of iniquity" that was already working in Paul's days meant that the Man of Lawlessness was part of the Zealot cause which had been simmering in Christ's days, and was surging in power after Christ had ascended to heaven.

 

[atpollard]

Yes, I'm trying to reconcile this passage with other truth that basically says the Parousia will not be accompanied by any signs -- that the Day of the Lord will come suddenly, unexpectedly like a thief in the night in a world that will be conducting its affairs as usual -- just the way the Flood came upon an unexpecting world.

He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. - 2 Thessalonians 2:4

What is "God's temple" that "he" might "set himself up in to be worshiped"?
The Temple in Jerusalem was knocked flat in AD 70 ... a Mosque sits on that approximate location today. (However the MAJORITY of the world population does not view that as "God's Temple". The Jews would not view a Mosque as God's Temple and the "Holy of Hollies" fell outside the footprint of the Mosque. Muslims do not view the Mosque as the Temple of "Allah". Christians and Hindu do not believe that God dwells in Jerusalem.

According to the NT, WE are the Temple of God! So what does THAT mean to the prophecy?

As far as "unexpected" goes, that seems the least of the problems. I can look at the sky and see Storm Clouds gathering and know that it will rain ... but predicting the exact hour and minute is something different. God said we will know the "seasons" but not the "day and hour". So if you LOOK for signs, you will know SOMETHING is coming ... but the details we will need to wait and see how they unfold (and exactly when).

 

[Rufus]

we the church are the temple of God after the first advent

It wasn’t the second coming but Jesus coming in judgement

There's nothing in the context to suggest a 70 A.D. "coming in judgment". But there are indications that the text is plainly talking about the Second Coming. In v. 1, Paul says "OUR being gathered to him..." He certainly seems to be alluding to resurrection on the Last Day.

And the one that is holding back the "secret power of lawlessness" is likely the angel that has the key to the abyss wherein Satan is currently being held. Eventually, this angel will be taken out of the way.

God's "temple" is very likely the Church.

Another huge hint that this passage is talking about the visible, physical Second Coming is that the "lawless one" will be overthrown by the SPLENDOR of Christ's coming -- clearly suggesting a physical, visible coming.

 

[Rufus]

He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. - 2 Thessalonians 2:4

What is "God's temple" that "he" might "set himself up in to be worshiped"?
The Temple in Jerusalem was knocked flat in AD 70 ... a Mosque sits on that approximate location today. (However the MAJORITY of the world population does not view that as "God's Temple". The Jews would not view a Mosque as God's Temple and the "Holy of Hollies" fell outside the footprint of the Mosque. Muslims do not view the Mosque as the Temple of "Allah". Christians and Hindu do not believe that God dwells in Jerusalem.

According to the NT, WE are the Temple of God! So what does THAT mean to the prophecy?

As far as "unexpected" goes, that seems the least of the problems. I can look at the sky and see Storm Clouds gathering and know that it will rain ... but predicting the exact hour and minute is something different. God said we will know the "seasons" but not the "day and hour". So if you LOOK for signs, you will know SOMETHING is coming ... but the details we will need to wait and see how they unfold (and exactly when).

Not really....That is the problem. In the Mt. Olivet Discourse a whole slew of signs were given with respect to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. But after Mat 24:35, no more signs are given with respect to the Second Coming. Another item that sharply distinguishes Mat 24:1-35 from the rest of the discourse is the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple would happen very soon -- within the generation ofJesus' contemporaries. But then when get to Matthew 25, it's very clear that the Lord would be a long time in coming (vv. 5, 19, etc.).

 

[Marty]

There's nothing in the context to suggest a 70 A.D. "coming in judgment". But there are indications that the text is plainly talking about the Second Coming. In v. 1, Paul says "OUR being gathered to him..." He certainly seems to be alluding to resurrection on the Last Day.

And the one that is holding back the "secret power of lawlessness" is likely the angel that has the key to the abyss wherein Satan is currently being held. Eventually, this angel will be taken out of the way.

God's "temple" is very likely the Church.

Another huge hint that this passage is talking about the visible, physical Second Coming is that the "lawless one" will be overthrown by the SPLENDOR of Christ's coming -- clearly suggesting a physical, visible coming.

See post #22

 

[prism]

Someone once suggested that this "man of sin" or "man of lawlessness" is most likely Adam in the corporate sense -- in other words all mankind that is in Adam and not in Christ.

That would seem a bit of a stretch in the light of the passage below'''

And the beast was taken, that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
(Rev 19:20)

 

[Rufus]

See post #22

Because they were being led astray. They were obviously been given a different scenario of the Parousia by unbelievers.

 

[Rufus]

That would seem a bit of a stretch in the light of the passage below'''

And the beast was taken, that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
(Rev 19:20)

Who is the "beast" in Rev 19:20?

 

[prism]

Who is the "beast" in Rev 19:20?

My point isn't who the beast is, but if he and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire, it would be highly unlikely that the beast is 'Adam in the corporate sense' ...or should I ask 'who is the false prophet?

Revelation 19:20 ESV
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

.

 

[Rufus]

My point isn't who the beast is, but if he and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire, it would be highly unlikely that the beast is 'Adam in the corporate sense' ...or should I ask 'who is the false prophet?

Revelation 19:20 ESV
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

.

Perhaps the "beast" and the "man of sin" are not one and the same personality. It appears you're assuming they are.

 

[Marty]

Who is the "beast" in Rev 19:20?

Powerful demonic being in control of first century Rome and it’s leaders mainly Nero

 

[prism]

Perhaps the "beast" and the "man of sin" are not one and the same personality. It appears you're assuming they are.

Perhaps I'm not assuming after all...

2 Thessalonians 2:8
Then the man of sin will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will destroy him by what he says. When the Lord Jesus comes, his appearance will put an end to this man.

Revelation 19:11-16 ESV
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. [12] His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. [13] He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. [14] And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. [15] From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. [16] On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.


Revelation 19:19-20
And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. [20] And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

 

[Rufus]

Perhaps I'm not assuming after all...

2 Thessalonians 2:8
Then the man of sin will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will destroy him by what he says. When the Lord Jesus comes, his appearance will put an end to this man.

Revelation 19:11-16 ESV
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. [12] His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. [13] He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. [14] And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. [15] From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. [16] On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.


Revelation 19:19-20
And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. [20] And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

And I take it that both of the above Revelation passages were fulfilled in 70 A.D.?

 

[prism]

And I take it that both of the above Revelation passages were fulfilled in 70 A.D.?

Last I checked, this is not a Preterist Board and neither am I.

 

[Rufus]

Last I checked, this is not a Preterist Board and neither am I.

Oh....this "is not a Preterist Board"??? Are Preterists banned from posting here? Or is classical preterism considered to be heretical? Anyhow...in my introductory post, I did address my questions specifically to preterists. So...I guess you and I are done here, since you have revealed what you are not. Have a nice day.