Why Our Will Is Not Free to Choose Christ

[Johan]

It says nothing at all about any sins committed by the individuals themselves, the "all men" and the "many". Paul has stated previously in verse 12 what that is, namely, "death spread to all men because all sinned-- "

1 john 2: 26-27 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

That any one teach you (hina tis didaskēi humas). Sub-final use of hina and the present active subjunctive of didaskō, “that any one keep on teaching you.”

Teacheth you (didaskei humas). Present active indicative.

The Holy Spirit was to bring all things to their remembrance (Joh_14:26) and to bear witness concerning Christ (Joh_15:26; Joh_16:12-15). Yet they need to be reminded of what they already know to be “true” (alēthes) and “no lie” (ouk estin pseudos), according to John’s habit of positive and negative (1Jn_1:5).

So he exhorts them to “abide in him” (menete en autōi, imperative active, though same form as the indicative). Precisely so Jesus had urged that the disciples abide in him (Joh_15:4.).
RWP

1) "But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you.” As Jesus Christ is the anointed one, so each believer has thru His church received this anointing, special empowering, clothed with power from on high. Luk_24:49; Act_2:1-47.

2) "And ye need not that any man teach you." Because our Lord has assured His disciples that the special clothing, anointing, or help that should come to them thru the Holy Spirit should guide them in all truth, John assures them that they have no supplement from any man - such as the antichrists arising. Joh_6:13.

3) "But as the same anointing teacheth you of all things." This "once for all" anointing, empowering help thru spiritual gifts that came upon the church at Pentecost, had guided and was a sufficient guide, teacher and help in all things thru the Word of truth. Joh_17:8; Joh_17:17; 2Ti_3:16-17.

4) "And is truth and is no lie". In essence of nature this anointing of the Spirit, clothing, empowering, guide thru the word, is genuine, not a lie, deception or falsehood.

5) "And even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” The empowering, clothing, armor that the Holy Spirit anointing brought to them, led them to talk and witness of Jesus, to abide in Him; Joh_16:13-14; Act_1:8; Rom_8:14; Rom_8:16.
Garner-Howes

Recipients?

Here, I. The apostle encourages the disciples (to whom he writes) in these dangerous times, in this hour of seducers; he encourages them in the assurance of their stability in this day of apostasy: But you have an unction from the Holy One, and you know all things. We see, 1. The blessing wherewith they were enriched - an unguent from heaven: You have an unction.

We are to study our Bibles and be like Bereans.
Johann.

 

[Johan]

The Holy anointing Spirit of God is not dying mankind He must do the teaching we abide in the teacher according to his promises (John 14) to teach guide comfort and last but not least bring to our memory the previous thing he has taught us . no claims to fame. same reward eternal life

I would concur-no one here is "better" than the other-we need each other-no room for boasting and the ever lurking pride in all of us.
Well-if not in others, in me, and pride comes in all forms and manifestations.

It shall greatly help ye to understand the Scriptures if thou mark not only what is spoken or written, but of whom and to whom, with what words, at what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what goeth before and what followeth after.

Guess who wrote this.
J.

 

[JIM]

What? That makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense to me.

How did I do that? Show me. Explain.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

In that verse, there is no distinction between the "all men" led to condemnation by one trespass and the "all men" led to justification and life by the one act of righteousness. But you impose by way of your Calvinistic teaching that they are not the same group. And therefore, as I said, you change the meaning of "the men" mid-sentence.

The same argument carries through for "the many" in verse 19.

The result of Jesus' obedience is applied to no one until they believe.

In that passage the result of Jesus' obedience relates to precisely the same ones as the results of Adam's disobedience; the results of Adam's disobedience relate strictly to the new-born (or the unborn if you prefer). In the passage, the results of Jesus' obedience relate strictly to the unborn. It does not relate to the sins committed later.

And the result of His obedience is His righteousness being counted as our own through our trust in Him.....

It has nothing to do with anyone's trust in Him. It is not talking about the results of Jesus obedience on the sinner. It is simply declaring that the results of Jesus obedience sets aside the results of Adam's disobedience.

and that is what justifies us before God, and reconciles us to Him.

Again it is not about justification and reconciliation. It is simply about how we are born into this world. Had Jesus not suffered on the cross, the whole of mankind would effectively have been lost at the very act of being born. Paul is telling you there that Jesus' death on the cross set that aside. What is left then is dealing with the sins, not of Adam, but of each individual.

Or do you not believe in imputed righteousness either? The result of of Christ's obedience and out trust in Him, is what takes us out of Adam. And why? Because it places us in Christ instead.

Of course I believe in imputed righteousness. But that is not what Romans 5 is about. Romans 6 is about imputed righteousness; Romans 5 is not. Besides there is nothing that "takes us out of Adam". In Adam is simply to be human. That doesn't change even for those of us who are in Christ and that is what Romans 7 is all about.

I just gave you the only rational application above. Well you depart from logic and the entire bulk of scripture, is your starting premise that Jesus' death on the cross resulted in everyone being taken out of Adam. That is the only reason you see your interpretation as the only logical one. But you are mistaken in that belief and so find some other place in scripture---anyplace---besides this one set of scriptures in Romans, that agrees with your premise and your interpretation of Romans. IOW support it from other parts of the Bible. I'll be waiting.

Ezekiel Chapter 18.

You seem to be arguing for both sides of the argument because you are not focusing on the false premise. That being that Jesus' obedience set aside completely the results of Adam's disobedience. It obviously did not, for we still have everyone being disobedient and unable to not be disobedient

You claim to be among the elect, and I believe you. But you are still in Adam; you are still human; you still sin. Your idea that the unelect are unable to not be disobedient is false. The High Calvinist idea that every single act, every thought of the unregenerate is disobedience is pure nonsense.

And only for those who are joined to Him in faith. The rest remain in Adam.

You are still human even after you have been justified, saved by grace through faith. You are in Adam. You are forgiven, but your sins are still there even though God as promised to not hold you accountable for them. You are forgiven and your penalty owed for your sins has been paid.

Only those who have been baptized into Christ, and were buried with Him, united with Him. Not as you say, Jesus' obedience resulted in setting aside the results of Adam's disobedience, for all men when they are born.

That is dealing with the sins committed by each individual. It has nothing to do with Adam.

 

[Johan]

But you are still in Adam; you are still human; you still sin. Your idea that the unelect are unable to not be disobedient is false. The High Calvinist idea that every single act, every thought of the unregenerate is disobedience is pure nonsense.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore NO condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Therefore now (ara nun). Two particles. Points back to the triumphant note in Rom_7:25 after the preceding despair.
No condemnation (ouden katakrima). As sinners we deserved condemnation in our unregenerate state in spite of the struggle.

But God offers pardon “to those in Christ Jesus (tois en Christōi Iēsou). This is Paul’s Gospel. The fire has burned on and around the Cross of Christ. There and there alone is safety. Those in Christ Jesus can lead the consecrated, the crucified, the baptized life.
RWS


1) "There is therefore now no condemnation," (ouden ara nun katakrima) "There is then no condemnation, now and hereafter;" The "in Christ" believer, redeemed, justified, saved now has and will have no more condemnation to hell, forever. It is this basic truth on which believers are called to serve the Lord, in gratitude, thru his church, Joh_3:18; Joh_5:24; Rom_4:7-8; Rom_6:23.

2) "To them which are in Christ Jesus," (tois en christou lesou)

"To those who are in Christ Jesus;" 1Co_1:30; 2Co_5:21. To be "in Christ" is to be saved, redeemed, justified, and complete, lacking nothing to keep one from hell's judgment, Col_2:9-10; Joh_10:27-29. An unsaved person enters Jesus Christ by repentance toward God and faith (trust) in Jesus Christ, Joh_3:19; Act_20:21; Act_10:43; Rom_15:7; Rom_15:11; Rom_15:22.

Still in Adam?

 

[Johan]

In (1722) (en) is "locative of sphere" meaning that their sainthood was in the sphere of Christ. As a goldfish lives and breathes and moves in the sphere of the aquarium, so too saints live in the sphere and influence of Christ Jesus their Lord. Stated another way, the believer’s new existence is circumscribed by Christ -- our life (Col 3:4+). Christ is the sphere in which the believer has his new life, his belief and all his interests and activities. Saints are believers in the sphere of fellowship and union with Christ, just as a fish has "fellowship" with the water in the tank. (See also Torrey's scriptures on the believer's Union With Christ) (See also F B Meyer - Chapter 3 - "In Him"; Chapter 4 - "Created in Him") (See Walter Wilson's CHRIST in Ephesians) Our eternal "location" in Christ Jesus is in direct contrast to our "location" in this temporal world, in which we are "aliens and strangers" (1 Peter 2:11+)

The great phrase in Christ Jesus - 50x in NAS - Acts 24:24; Rom. 3:24; 6:11, 23; 8:1, 2, 39; 15:17; 16:3; 1 Co. 1:2, 4, 30; 4:15; 15:31; 16:24; Gal. 2:4, 16; 3:14, 26, 28; 5:6; Eph. 1:1; 2:6, 7, 10, 13; 3:6, 11, 21; Phil. 1:1, 26; 2:5; 3:3, 14; 4:7, 19, 21; Col. 1:4; 1 Thess. 2:14; 5:18; 1 Tim. 1:14; 3:13; 2 Tim. 1:1, 9, 13; 2:1, 10; 3:12, 15; Philemon 1:23

Observe who uses this phrase most frequently!

The phrase in Christ - 37x in NASB (following do not include the entire phrase "in Christ Jesus") -Rom. 9:1; 12:5; 16:7, 9f; 1 Co. 3:1; 4:10, 17; 15:18f, 22; 2 Co. 1:21; 2:14, 17; 3:14; 5:17, 19; 12:2, 19; Gal. 1:22; 2:17; Eph. 1:3, 10, 12, 20; 4:32; Phil. 2:1; 3:9; Col. 1:2, 28; 2:5; 1 Thess. 4:16; Philemon 1:8, 20; 1 Pet. 3:16; 5:10, 14.

If you need to be encouraged and renewed in your mind [cp notes re "mind renewal" in Ro 12:2+; Eph 4:23+] about who you now are in Christ, consider making a list of the truth you glean from the NT passages listed above.

Harold Hoehner says the phrase and its equivalents, such as “in Him,” “in Christ,” or “in the Lord,” occur thirty-nine times in Ephesians

In Christ Jesus defines the saints eternal, permanent, spiritual location. In Christ Jesus describes our position and our new sphere of existence. The preeminent idea brought out by this phrase (used over 130 times in some form - in Him, in the Beloved, etc) is that of the believers spiritual union with Christ (compare idea of Oneness of Covenant and Oneness Notes). Undoubtedly, considering its prevalence in his writings, this truth of in Christ is probably one of the most significant teachings of the Apostle Paul.

Ephesians 1:1-2 Commentary | Precept Austin

www.preceptaustin.org

Are we still in Adam @JIM?

 

[JIM]

Rom 8:1 There is therefore NO condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Therefore now (ara nun). Two particles. Points back to the triumphant note in Rom_7:25 after the preceding despair.
No condemnation (ouden katakrima). As sinners we deserved condemnation in our unregenerate state in spite of the struggle.

But God offers pardon “to those in Christ Jesus (tois en Christōi Iēsou). This is Paul’s Gospel. The fire has burned on and around the Cross of Christ. There and there alone is safety. Those in Christ Jesus can lead the consecrated, the crucified, the baptized life.
RWS


1) "There is therefore now no condemnation," (ouden ara nun katakrima) "There is then no condemnation, now and hereafter;" The "in Christ" believer, redeemed, justified, saved now has and will have no more condemnation to hell, forever. It is this basic truth on which believers are called to serve the Lord, in gratitude, thru his church, Joh_3:18; Joh_5:24; Rom_4:7-8; Rom_6:23.

2) "To them which are in Christ Jesus," (tois en christou lesou)

"To those who are in Christ Jesus;" 1Co_1:30; 2Co_5:21. To be "in Christ" is to be saved, redeemed, justified, and complete, lacking nothing to keep one from hell's judgment, Col_2:9-10; Joh_10:27-29. An unsaved person enters Jesus Christ by repentance toward God and faith (trust) in Jesus Christ, Joh_3:19; Act_20:21; Act_10:43; Rom_15:7; Rom_15:11; Rom_15:22.

Still in Adam?

To be in Adam simply means to be a human being. To be in Christ does not change your status as a human being. Paul's discussion in Romans 7 describes his own struggles with sin. The phrase, "in Adam" appears only once in the NT. That is 1 Corinthians 15:22. That is the statement that as human beings we will all die physically. Being in Christ does not change that.

 

[JIM]

In (1722) (en) is "locative of sphere" meaning that their sainthood was in the sphere of Christ. As a goldfish lives and breathes and moves in the sphere of the aquarium, so too saints live in the sphere and influence of Christ Jesus their Lord. Stated another way, the believer’s new existence is circumscribed by Christ -- our life (Col 3:4+). Christ is the sphere in which the believer has his new life, his belief and all his interests and activities. Saints are believers in the sphere of fellowship and union with Christ, just as a fish has "fellowship" with the water in the tank. (See also Torrey's scriptures on the believer's Union With Christ) (See also F B Meyer - Chapter 3 - "In Him"; Chapter 4 - "Created in Him") (See Walter Wilson's CHRIST in Ephesians) Our eternal "location" in Christ Jesus is in direct contrast to our "location" in this temporal world, in which we are "aliens and strangers" (1 Peter 2:11+)

The great phrase in Christ Jesus - 50x in NAS - Acts 24:24; Rom. 3:24; 6:11, 23; 8:1, 2, 39; 15:17; 16:3; 1 Co. 1:2, 4, 30; 4:15; 15:31; 16:24; Gal. 2:4, 16; 3:14, 26, 28; 5:6; Eph. 1:1; 2:6, 7, 10, 13; 3:6, 11, 21; Phil. 1:1, 26; 2:5; 3:3, 14; 4:7, 19, 21; Col. 1:4; 1 Thess. 2:14; 5:18; 1 Tim. 1:14; 3:13; 2 Tim. 1:1, 9, 13; 2:1, 10; 3:12, 15; Philemon 1:23

Observe who uses this phrase most frequently!

The phrase in Christ - 37x in NASB (following do not include the entire phrase "in Christ Jesus") -Rom. 9:1; 12:5; 16:7, 9f; 1 Co. 3:1; 4:10, 17; 15:18f, 22; 2 Co. 1:21; 2:14, 17; 3:14; 5:17, 19; 12:2, 19; Gal. 1:22; 2:17; Eph. 1:3, 10, 12, 20; 4:32; Phil. 2:1; 3:9; Col. 1:2, 28; 2:5; 1 Thess. 4:16; Philemon 1:8, 20; 1 Pet. 3:16; 5:10, 14.

If you need to be encouraged and renewed in your mind [cp notes re "mind renewal" in Ro 12:2+; Eph 4:23+] about who you now are in Christ, consider making a list of the truth you glean from the NT passages listed above.

Harold Hoehner says the phrase and its equivalents, such as “in Him,” “in Christ,” or “in the Lord,” occur thirty-nine times in Ephesians

In Christ Jesus defines the saints eternal, permanent, spiritual location. In Christ Jesus describes our position and our new sphere of existence. The preeminent idea brought out by this phrase (used over 130 times in some form - in Him, in the Beloved, etc) is that of the believers spiritual union with Christ (compare idea of Oneness of Covenant and Oneness Notes). Undoubtedly, considering its prevalence in his writings, this truth of in Christ is probably one of the most significant teachings of the Apostle Paul.

Ephesians 1:1-2 Commentary | Precept Austin

www.preceptaustin.org

Are we still in Adam @JIM?

Yes! We are still human beings.

For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Romans 7:22-8:4).

 

[Johan]

To be in Adam simply means to be a human being. To be in Christ does not change your status as a human being. Paul's discussion in Romans 7 describes his own struggles with sin. The phrase, "in Adam" appears only once in the NT. That is 1 Corinthians 15:22. That is the statement that as human beings we will all die physically. Being in Christ does not change that.

1) "For as in Adam all die," (hosper gar en to adam apothneskousin) The first Adam received life, but lost it through disobedience, Gen_2:7; Rom_5:14-17. The second Adam (Christ) was life, the fountain of it, Joh_1:4; Joh_5:21; Joh_10:10; 1Jn_5:12.

2) "Even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (houtos kai en christo pantes zoopoiethesontai) The first flesh creation, in the first Adam, acquired death. The second creation, in Christ by the Spirit, assures of life from among dead flesh corpses, 1Co_15:45; Joh_3:6; Rom_8:11; Rom_8:23.

Thank you for responding in a cordial manner brother. Guess the question should be are we walking in the Spirit or after the flesh

1Co 15:22 For as in the Adam [nature] all die [by virtue of their relationship to Adam], so in Christ also shall all be made alive.

 

[JIM]

1) "For as in Adam all die," (hosper gar en to adam apothneskousin) The first Adam received life, but lost it through disobedience, Gen_2:7; Rom_5:14-17. The second Adam (Christ) was life, the fountain of it, Joh_1:4; Joh_5:21; Joh_10:10; 1Jn_5:12.

2) "Even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (houtos kai en christo pantes zoopoiethesontai) The first flesh creation, in the first Adam, acquired death. The second creation, in Christ by the Spirit, assures of life from among dead flesh corpses, 1Co_15:45; Joh_3:6; Rom_8:11; Rom_8:23.

Thank you for responding in a cordial manner brother. Guess the question should be are we walking in the Spirit or after the flesh

1Co 15:22 For as in the Adam [nature] all die [by virtue of their relationship to Adam], so in Christ also shall all be made alive.

To be in Christ has nothing really to do with our physical being. It is a state of the spiritual. Regeneration is not about our physical being; rather it is all about our spiritual being.

You said,
2) "Even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (houtos kai en christo pantes zoopoiethesontai) The first flesh creation, in the first Adam, acquired death. The second creation, in Christ by the Spirit, assures of life from among dead flesh corpses, 1Co_15:45; Joh_3:6; Rom_8:11; Rom_8:23.

That is all about the spirit, the soul, of a man.

1Co 15:46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

The contrast seems rather obvious to me. Dust denotes physical; heaven denotes spiritual.

 

[JIM]

That our sinfulness has nothing to do with Adam. Jesus gave us a clean slate on the cross according to you and then we sin, and then He redeems us.

Yes, absolutely. The only thing we have "in Adam" is our being human.

 

[Johan]

That is all about the spirit, the soul, of a man.

1Co 15:46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

The contrast seems rather obvious to me. Dust denotes physical; heaven denotes spiritual

Not here to argue @JIM -mainly to observe the various opinions and interpretations given.


1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural [animal life] body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 So it has been written also, The first man Adam became into a living individual; the last Adam [Jesus] was made into a quickening spirit [the resurrection body].
1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the natural;... afterward the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the dust, earthy [soil-like]: the second man is ... of heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are of the dust: and as is the heavenly [celestial], such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall bear the image also of the heavenly.

As οἷος was the ὁ earthly man, χοϊκός, so τοιοῦτοι also are καὶ those who are οἱ of the earth; χοϊκοί· and καὶ as οἷος is the ὁ heavenly man, ἐπουράνιος, so τοιοῦτοι also καὶ are those who are οἱ of heaven. ἐπουράνιοι. 49 And καὶ just as καθὼς we have borne ἐφορέσαμεν the τὴν likeness εἰκόνα of the τοῦ earthly man, χοϊκοῦ, so also καὶ shall we bear φορέσομεν the τὴν likeness εἰκόνα of the τοῦ heavenly man. ἐπουρανίου.

V-FIA-1P (BSB Morphology)
Verb - Future Indicative Active - 1st Person Plural
Lemma: φορέω
Word: shall we bear
Greek: φορέσομεν
Transliteration: phoresomen
G5409 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G5409 φορέω phoreo (fo-re'-ō) v.
1. to have a burden.
2. (by analogy) to wear as clothing or a constant accompaniment.


1) "And as we have borne the image of the earthy,"(kai kathos eporesamen ten eikona tou choikou) "And just as we bore the image (sinful likeness) of the earthy first man Adam." Even as we in earthly bodies sit in heavenly places (of worship) and service, let us bear the heavenly image of God, Eph_2:6.

2) "We shall also bear the image of the heavenly" (phoresomen kai ten eikona tou eporaniou) We shall or let us now bear (in the resurrection) the image (holy, sinless, glorified body likeness) of the heavenly man (the second Adam, Jesus Christ." 1Jn_3:2; Php_3:21; Our vile bodies shall be changed like unto their Lord; What a deliverance victory!

Blessings
J.

 

[Mr GLee]

Of course I believe in imputed righteousness. But that is not what Romans 5 is about. Romans 6 is about imputed righteousness; Romans 5 is not. Besides there is nothing that "takes us out of Adam". In Adam is simply to be human. That doesn't change even for those of us who are in Christ and that is what Romans 7 is all about.

Is God who works in us to both reveal his will and empower mankind to perform it to his good pleasure .He is not served by the dying suffering hands of mankind under a curse .

Job informs us he is of one mind and always does whatsoever' his soul desire . no man can turn him, He performs that which he works in us he alone can make a hard heart soft.

Job 23:12-16 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him.For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

He does not put new wine in old wineskin. The corruptible does not put on a bandaid the incorruptible .We have our new spirit as a work of his labor of love all die not receiving the promise.

Better things accompany salvation then crucifying Christ over and over each time a person violates the law (losing salvation).

God is keeping track of every time we can work with him being empowered to perform a work of trusting him Yoked with him Like Jesus said not as a I will the one with no power but you father. You alone have the power to create new creatures Let there be and it was God good.

Our daily sufferings is made lighter with a hope beyond one last breath

Hebrew6: 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister

 

[JIM]

1) "And as we have borne the image of the earthy,"(kai kathos eporesamen ten eikona tou choikou) "And just as we bore the image (sinful likeness) of the earthy first man Adam." Even as we in earthly bodies sit in heavenly places (of worship) and service, let us bear the heavenly image of God, Eph_2:6.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

That is not about the physical being at all. It is entirely about the spiritual. It is our spirit that was dead in our trespasses. It is our spirits that were made alive together with Christ. It is our spirits that have been raised up with him. It is in our spirits that we are seated with Him even now in heavenly places.

It is only in our spirits that we bear the heavenly image of God.

We do not sit in heavenly places physically. There are no heavenly places on earth.; all such designations ceased with the coming of the New Covenant. The heavenly places there is not a reference to churches. It is a reference to the kingdom, a spiritual kingdom. The kingdom is not a physical place. It is a state of spiritual being.

 

[JIM]

Is God who works in us to both reveal his will and empower mankind to perform it to his good pleasure .He is not served by the dying suffering hands of mankind under a curse .

Job informs us he is of one mind and always does whatsoever' his soul desire . no man can turn him, He performs that which he works in us he alone can make a hard heart soft.

Job 23:12-16 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him.For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

He does not put new wine in old wineskin. The corruptible does not put on a bandaid the incorruptible .We have our new spirit as a work of his labor of love all die not receiving the promise.

Better things accompany salvation then crucifying Christ over and over each time a person violates the law (losing salvation).

God is keeping track of every time we can work with him being empowered to perform a work of trusting him Yoked with him Like Jesus said not as a I will the one with no power but you father. You alone have the power to create new creatures Let there be and it was God good.

Our daily sufferings is made lighter with a hope beyond one last breath

Hebrew6: 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister

Yes. How does that deal with anything I said that you quoted?

 

[Mr GLee]

Yes. How does that deal with anything I said that you quoted?

Sorry I was not disagreeing. It shows where the power comes from by which we can walk with God. No human input or power

 

[Johan]

That is not about the physical being at all. It is entirely about the spiritual. It is our spirit that was dead in our trespasses. It is our spirits that were made alive together with Christ. It is our spirits that have been raised up with him. It is in our spirits that we are seated with Him even now in heavenly places.

I wasn't referring re our physical beings at all @JIM -but concur it has all to do with our spirit..nephesh

Eph 2:5 evenG2532 Conj kai καὶ beingG1510 V-PPA-AMP ontas ὄντας weG1473 PPro-A1P hēmas ἡμᾶς deadG3498 Adj-AMP nekrous νεκροὺς -G3588 Art-DNP tois τοῖς in trespasses,G3900 N-DNP paraptōmasin, παραπτώμασιν, made [us] alive withG4806 G5656 V-AIA-3S synezōopoiēsen συνεζωοποίησεν -G3588 Art-DMS tō τῷ Christ—G5547 N-DMS Christō— Χριστῷ— by graceG5485 N-DFS chariti χάριτί you areG1510 V-PIA-2P este ἐστε saved—G4982 G5772 V-RPM/P-NMP sesōsmenoi— σεσῳσμένοι—

"made us alive together with Christ"

This English phrase reflects one Greek word (suzōpoieō). This is the main verb of the sentence (aorist active indicative) which begins in Eph. 2:1. This is the first of three compound aorist verbs with the Greek preposition, syn, which meant "joint participation with." Jesus was raised from the dead in Eph. 1:20 and believers have been quickened to spiritual life through Him (cf. Col. 2:13; 3:1). Believers are now truly alive with Christ. We have resurrection life now! Death, the last enemy, has been defeated (cf. 1 Cor. 15).

2:5,8 "by grace you have been saved"
This is a Perfect passive periphrastic participle, repeated in Eph. 2:8 for emphasis. This meant that believers have been saved in the past, by an outside agent, with abiding results; "they have been and continue to be saved by God." This same construction is repeated in Eph. 2:8 for emphasis. See Special Topic at Eph. 1:7.

This is one of the biblical passages which forms the basis for the doctrine of the security of the believer (cf. John 6:37, 39; 10:28; 17:2, 24; 18:9; Rom. 8:31-39). Like all biblical doctrines, it must be balanced (held in tension) with other truths and texts.

2:6 "raised us with Him"
This is the second of the aorist compounds with syn. Believers have already been raised with Christ. Believers were buried with Him in baptism (cf. Col. 2:12; Rom. 6:3-11) and raised with Him by the Father (cf. Col. 2:13; Rom. 6:4-5) who raised Jesus (raised by the Spirit in Rom. 8:11). These are special redemptive analogies.

Believers spiritually participate in the major events of Jesus' experience: crucifixion, death, burial, resurrection, and enthronement! Believers share His life and suffering; they will also share His glory (cf. Rom. 8:17)!

NASB, NRSV"seated us with Him"
NKJV"made us sit together"
TEV"to rule with him"
NJB"gave us a place with him"

This is the third of the aorist compounds with syn. Our position in Him is one of present, as well as future, victory (cf. Rom. 8:37)!

The concept of sitting down with Him meant reigning with Him. Jesus is the King of Kings sitting on the throne of God the Father and believers are even now co-reigning with Him (cf. Matt. 19:28; Rom. 5:17; Col. 3:1; 2 Tim. 2:12; Rev. 2:26; 3:21).



NASB, NKJV,
NRSV"in the heavenly places"
TEV"in the heavenly world"
NJB"in heaven"

This locative (of sphere) neuter plural adjective, "in the heavenly places," is only used in Ephesians (cf. Eph. 1:20; 2:6; 3:10; 6:12). From the context of all of its usages, it must mean the spiritual realm in which believers live here and now, not heaven.

2:7 "in the ages to come" The Jews believed in two ages, the current evil age (Gal. 1:4) and the coming righteous age (see Special Topic at Eph. 1:21). This New Age of righteousness would be inaugurated by the coming of the Messiah in the power of the Spirit. In Eph. 1:21 "age" is singular, here it is plural (cf. 1 Cor 2:7; Heb. 1:2; 11:3). This implies that (1) there are at least two ages or (2) the plural is used to accentuate and magnify the coming age-a rabbinical idiom called a "plural of majesty." This use of the plural in a symbolic sense can be seen in the passages that refer to the past "ages" (cf. Rom. 16:25; 1 Cor. 10:11; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2).
Utley.

Johann.

 

[Arial]

It makes perfect sense to me.

I'm sure it does. Do you suppose you could write it in some way that makes sense to someone besides yourself?

That is not the "all men" and the "many" that you assign to the results of Adam's sin. Those you take to be every single human being, save Jesus Christ Himself alone, who has ever lived or will ever live and that at the instant of their birth (or before)

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

In that verse, there is no distinction between the "all men" led to condemnation by one trespass and the "all men" led to justification and life by the one act of righteousness. But you impose by way of your Calvinistic teaching that they are not the same group. And therefore, as I said, you change the meaning of "the men" mid-sentence.

The same argument carries through for "the many" in verse 19.

We find the distinction in many places, which must be carried over into how we interpret this scripture. We know that in Adam all men became sinners---and that does not mean only the personal sins we committed, but the fact that mankind through the sin of Adam became a sinful creature. Therefore could not tabernacle with God and were put out of the Garden. Rather than destroy Adam and Eve then and there, and all through the history of redemption until the coming of Christ and His death and ascension, God provided temporary covering. This temporary covering did not provide eternal life, unless it was also attached to faith. So we know what "all" means regarding men of the earth (Adam)in this Romans passage. All without exception.

We also know from scripture that not all men are made righteous and justified---so the "all men" applies to those who have been made righteous and are justified, as we are told, only through faith in Christ. But it is not restricted to any particular types of people or nations. The same argument carries through for "the many"---which in the case of those justified means a literal many, not all without exception, and of those in Adam it means many as a great number, all mankind, not only some. We see these things from the whole counsel of God, which we should already know by the time we get to Romans. And if we don't, Paul goes into great detail setting the stage for what he says in this therefore, in all of the preceding chapters.

 

[Arial]

In that passage the result of Jesus' obedience relates to precisely the same ones as the results of Adam's disobedience; the results of Adam's disobedience relate strictly to the new-born (or the unborn if you prefer). In the passage, the results of Jesus' obedience relate strictly to the unborn. It does not relate to the sins committed later.

It does not say that. Not even close. You have decided it says that because you isolate it from the rest of the Bible in order to interpret it. John 3 alone should tell you that. Why do we need to be reborn if we are already reborn simply by the fact that Jesus died on the cross? Why does it say we are a new creation in Christ if we are born naturally in Him already a new creation? What about all those born before Christ died on the cross? You have God starting all over with the death of the Son, as though each baby born since the cross is born into the Garden of Eden.

And you might take note here that from the first self centered, center of the universe, wail of a babe demanding attention and to have its needs met, the first "No!" he utters to his parents, he is violating the created order of God and the command to honor your mother and father. We are born rebellious against God.

 

[JIM]

And you might take note here that from the first self centered, center of the universe, wail of a babe demanding attention and to have its needs met, the first "No!" he utters to his parents, he is violating the created order of God and the command to honor your mother and father. We are born rebellious against God.

OH GOOD GRIEF ! ! If you think the "wail of a babe demanding attention and to have its needs met" is sin, then you are grossly misguided and have not even a clue about the entire problem of sin and it is no wonder that you are so confused about things.

 

[Mr GLee]

Yes. How does that deal with anything I said that you quoted?

I think we must be careful how we hear what we say we do .Satan is quick to snatch the gospel seed so it can puff up the flesh (the temporal

3 questions

Who or what is it that made your heart soft ?

Why does God called the unborn liars? He calls there lies like the poison attributed to false prophecy;

Who can soften a Babies'' heart even in the womb?


Psalm 58:2-4King James Version2 Yea, The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;