Why Our Will Is Not Free to Choose Christ

[Arial]

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

I am wondering how this even applies to whether or not the will of man is free you choose Christ? But let's address it anyway as it is the second time you have used it to refute my position. Remember also that this was long before there was an Israel and long before He had given the Law. And then remember what Paul said about that in Romans 5, and what he said in Romans 1,2,3 about the condition of all.

In Job 36 we have a continuation of what has been a long, and tortuous to Job, conversation of Job's friends accusing him before God. It is Elihue speaking. Not everything Job's "friends" said about God was wrong, and not all of it was right, all of it was misapplied to accuse Job. We know what was behind what Job was going through because God tells us in the first chapter. Neither Job or his friends had a clue. His friends assumed he was being punished for being sinful. Job knew his own heart and the lifestyle he lived, with what he knew of God at its center. He wanted to bring his case before God Himself. In the process He said some very harsh and presumeous things to God, but he did not curse Him which is what satan had said he could make him do.

So rather than base your doctrine on the words of someone who was misapplying God's word or character to accuse someone, I suggest that you read chapters 38-42 where God speaks to Job----and you will note, still not telling him why these things happened to him, but simply telling him who He is. And prayerfully, have the same reaction to the voice of God that Job did.

And as I did early in my Christian walk when I had arrived in my read through the Bible at Job. It was over a simple thing really, but it was something I needed to learn, and learn I did, and am forever grateful. So profound was it that even almost forty years later I remember the chair I was sitting it, the quality of the light, the summer sounds coming through the open door.

As I said it was early in my walk and still in that time when God was answering my simple, childlike, prayers quickly. And my faith was as innocent and joyful as a babes. But we had come into a time of lack of rain and the huge vegetable garden I had planted, prayed over, and dedicated the first fruits to the needy, was languishing in the intense heat and sun baked earth. The well did not have the capacity to water it. So I prayed. And I prayed. And I prayed. Nightly for days and days, I would hear rumbles of thunder at night, see in distant flashes of lightning, thunderheads piling up and steaks of rain reaching the ground, sometimes sitting nearly stationary, just dumping water. None came to where I was, to where my tomatoes and cabbage and peppers wilted for need of a drink.

And I got angry. Angry at God. I talked back to Him in my anger. I had already been reading in the book of Job, and was that night too. I read the things Job's friends were saying about God and became angrier still. And then I came to chapter 38, and transfixed as though God had entered the room Himself (a feeling and metaphor as to the effect it was having on me), continued with 39 and when I reached 40:3-5 where Job speaks, "Behold I am vile; What shall I answer you? I lay my hand over my mouth. Once I have spoken,but I will not answer; yes twice but I will proceed no farther.", I began to crack.

I continued to read and came to 42:4-6 where Job again speaks. I have heard of you by the hearing of the ear,but now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

I broke. Just as Job broke when he heard those words of God. And I wept.

A short time later it began to rain. It rained all night and into the next day. God indeed knows each of us by name, knows our thoughts and our needs ( and I needed something much more than I needed rain), holds us up, teaches us, strengthens us, keeps us, in a very personal, one on one way. Lets lose the man centered Christianity and find the God centered Christianity.

 

[Arial]

John 14:22-23 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Note the order of salvation in John 14:

• God reveals His word
• We either seek to follow it, and in doing so God loves us, and gives us sight
• Or we do not seek to follow Him and are left in blindness

That verse is not even giving the order of salvation. It is Jesus comforting His disciples just before His death.




18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

So notice the order of salvation: John 3:3-8


3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[b] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[c] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You[d] must be born again.’ 8 The wind[e] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Or here: Romans 8:29-30 For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I am wondering how this even applies to whether or not the will of man is free you choose Christ? But let's address it anyway as it is the second time you have used it to refute my position. Remember also that this was long before there was an Israel and long before He had given the Law. And then remember what Paul said about that in Romans 5, and what he said in Romans 1,2,3 about the condition of all.

In Job 36 we have a continuation of what has been a long, and tortuous to Job, conversation of Job's friends accusing him before God. It is Elihue speaking. Not everything Job's "friends" said about God was wrong, and not all of it was right, all of it was misapplied to accuse Job. We know what was behind what Job was going through because God tells us in the first chapter. Neither Job or his friends had a clue. His friends assumed he was being punished for being sinful. Job knew his own heart and the lifestyle he lived, with what he knew of God at its center. He wanted to bring his case before God Himself. In the process He said some very harsh and presumeous things to God, but he did not curse Him which is what satan had said he could make him do.

So rather than base your doctrine on the words of someone who was misapplying God's word or character to accuse someone, I suggest that you read chapters 38-42 where God speaks to Job----and you will note, still not telling him why these things happened to him, but simply telling him who He is. And prayerfully, have the same reaction to the voice of God that Job did.

And as I did early in my Christian walk when I had arrived in my read through the Bible at Job. It was over a simple thing really, but it was something I needed to learn, and learn I did, and am forever grateful. So profound was it that even almost forty years later I remember the chair I was sitting it, the quality of the light, the summer sounds coming through the open door.

As I said it was early in my walk and still in that time when God was answering my simple, childlike, prayers quickly. And my faith was as innocent and joyful as a babes. But we had come into a time of lack of rain and the huge vegetable garden I had planted, prayed over, and dedicated the first fruits to the needy, was languishing in the intense heat and sun baked earth. The well did not have the capacity to water it. So I prayed. And I prayed. And I prayed. Nightly for days and days, I would hear rumbles of thunder at night, see in distant flashes of lightning, thunderheads piling up and steaks of rain reaching the ground, sometimes sitting nearly stationary, just dumping water. None came to where I was, to where my tomatoes and cabbage and peppers wilted for need of a drink.

And I got angry. Angry at God. I talked back to Him in my anger. I had already been reading in the book of Job, and was that night too. I read the things Job's friends were saying about God and became angrier still. And then I came to chapter 38, and transfixed as though God had entered the room Himself (a feeling and metaphor as to the effect it was having on me), continued with 39 and when I reached 40:3-5 where Job speaks, "Behold I am vile; What shall I answer you? I lay my hand over my mouth. Once I have spoken,but I will not answer; yes twice but I will proceed no farther.", I began to crack.

I continued to read and came to 42:4-6 where Job again speaks. I have heard of you by the hearing of the ear,but now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

I broke. Just as Job broke when he heard those words of God. And I wept.

A short time later it began to rain. It rained all night and into the next day. God indeed knows each of us by name, knows our thoughts and our needs ( and I needed something much more than I needed rain), holds us up, teaches us, strengthens us, keeps us, in a very personal, one on one way. Lets lose the man centered Christianity and find the God centered Christianity.

You said:

So rather than base your doctrine on the words of someone who was misapplying God's word or character to accuse someone

This is an incorrect thought, Job had 4 friends in the passage, and God did not rebuke Elihu, only jobs other 3 friends. SO that tells us that what he said WAS approved by God.

Job 42:7-9 And so it was, after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has. Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, go to My servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and My servant Job shall pray for you. For I will accept him, lest I deal with you according to your folly; because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has." So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did as the LORD commanded them; for the LORD had accepted Job.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

That verse is not even giving the order of salvation. It is Jesus comforting His disciples just before His death.

Read it again, it is a passage talking about receiving the Holy Spirit. It has nothing to do with comfort.

Joh 14:15-16 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—

 

[Arial]

This is an incorrect thought, Job had 4 friends in the passage, and God did not rebuke Elihu, only jobs other 3 friends. SO that tells us that what he said WAS approved by God.

That is an incorrect thought. How does that strike you when I tell you what your thoughts should and shouldn't be, what is a correct thought and what is not. Here is what I said before I came to that remark.

Not everything Job's "friends" said about God was wrong,

But I am still waiting for you to actually address the post.

 

[Arial]

Read it again, it is a passage talking about receiving the Holy Spirit. It has nothing to do with comfort.

Read the whole chapter.

Also:ADDRESS THE POSTS!

 

[FutureAndAHope]

That is an incorrect thought. How does that strike you when I tell you what your thoughts should and shouldn't be, what is a correct thought and what is not. Here is what I said before I came to that remark.

But I am still waiting for you to actually address the post.

It really does not bother me. But read the scripture carefully. Elihu, whom I quoted was NOT rebuked by God.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Read the whole chapter.

Also:ADDRESS THE POSTS!

But you are missing the context of the verses I quoted, they are specifically talking about how one receives the Holy Spirit. Lets quote it:

John 14:15-23 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

But the important thing is Judas asked "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"

His question was in response to Jesus words "whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you"

He is asking, how will you show yourself to us and not the world?

Jesus gives him a clear response to whom he manifests salvation to, lefts see the order, and he refers to "anyone", not just the disciples:

1. If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word;
2. and My Father will love him,
3. and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

1) The person who receives Jesus ' words and keeps them, is subsequently, after their step of obedience, loved by God, if God see the heart of love, commitment, and even obedience, He will then and only then make a home with that person.

The Holy Spirit is not given to a set of preselected people but rather given to those who follow Jesus's words. Now we know that a part of that "word" is the call to faith, that righteousness does not come by the law, but man "acts" after receiving the word of God, only those who "act" are loved/saved.

God's call is not that deep, love God, and love others. Accept His grace.

 

[Arial]

It really does not bother me. But read the scripture carefully. Elihu, whom I quoted was NOT rebuked by God.

I never said he was. That is completely beside the point and misses the purpose in the book of Job being included in our Bible. A gift to us from God.

So rather than base your doctrine on the words of someone who was misapplying God's word or character to accuse someone, I suggest that you read chapters 38-42 where God speaks to Job----and you will note, still not telling him why these things happened to him, but simply telling him who He is. And prayerfully, have the same reaction to the voice of God that Job did.

Did you bother to do the above, and therein discover what that post was about, and then be able to address it? Even though the anecdotal example I gave you should have made it clear?

I personally wonder how anyone could read those chapters of God speaking to Job and still come away maintaining their position on redemption through the choice of anyone. I would think it would shut their mouths in humility and repentance, to dare to tell God that He would establish His plan of redemption, send His Son to the cross, around the will of the sinful creature.

 

[Arial]

But you are missing the context of the verses I quoted, they are specifically talking about how one receives the Holy Spirit.

The context is the whole chapter.

Later for the rest. I need more coffee and need to get the morning chores done.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I never said he was. That is completely beside the point and misses the purpose in the book of Job being included in our Bible. A gift to us from God.

Did you bother to do the above, and therein discover what that post was about, and then be able to address it? Even though the anecdotal example I gave you should have made it clear?

I personally wonder how anyone could read those chapters of God speaking to Job and still come away maintaining their position on redemption through the choice of anyone. I would think it would shut their mouths in humility and repentance, to dare to tell God that He would establish His plan of redemption, send His Son to the cross, around the will of the sinful creature.

Are you still blind to what I am saying?

So rather than base your doctrine on the words of someone who was misapplying God's word or character

You keep pushing this line. But Elihu, did not misrepresent God. God only rebuked Job's other three friends. If Elihu was speaking falsely don't you think God would have rebuked him as well?

 

[Arial]

Are you still blind to what I am saying?

I know perfectly well what you are saying. I disagree with it. Now, tell me what I am saying.

You keep pushing this line. But Elihu, did not misrepresent God. God only rebuked Job's other three friends. If Elihu was speaking falsely don't you think God would have rebuked him as well?

Let me quote again for the sake of clarity and so I can put in red how you misrepresent what I said.

So rather than base your doctrine on the words of someone who was misapplying God's word or character to accuse someone,

Does that say Elihu was misrepresenting God? You did indeed misrepresent what I said. I did not say that Elihu misrepresented God's word. I said the whole discours directed at Job was not applicable to Job's situation. That does not mean that what they said about God was untrue.

But for the sake of getting the thread back on track instead of bickering, could you please address the things I have said? There are two people in this exchange, not just one.

 

[Arial]

But the important thing is Judas asked "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"

His question was in response to Jesus words "whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you"

He is asking, how will you show yourself to us and not the world?

Jesus gives him a clear response to whom he manifests salvation to, lefts see the order, and he refers to "anyone", not just the disciples:

1. If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word;
2. and My Father will love him,
3. and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

It is not the only important thing in what is being said. It is what you are using to base a doctrine on, and one that clearly contradicts the Bible. You give it as the order of salvation. And that was addressed by me in another post from other portions of the scripture and as of yet you have not addressed any of what I had to say. Let me repost it for you.

So notice the order of salvation: John 3:3-8


3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[b] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[c] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You[d] must be born again.’ 8 The wind[e] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Or here: Romans 8:29-30 For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.

It is post #142 so you can go back to it and highlight and comment. When I ask this of those who are stalemating, avoiding, deflecting away from responding to what is said by someone other than themselves, they seldom have the courtesy to do so. It will be interesting to discover whether or not this request will have a different result.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[b] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[c] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You[d] must be born again.’ 8 The wind[e] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

So, all that says is that one must have the Holy Spirit to enter God's kingdom. It is not an "order" of salvation.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Or here: Romans 8:29-30 For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.

I have cut and pasted from my website what I believe on this topic, I use quotes from the Early Church Fathers, where the word has been used.

Justin Martyr and his usage of Foreknown, Foreknew​

The following are quotes are taken from Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] as found in the eBook of Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1 (Rev. Dods 1867*E1). They show the meaning that was applied to the phrase.

Not made Wicked by God​

We see the terms usage by Justin Martyr in the passages that follow, foreknow his text shows does not mean God made some wicked, he says that the wicked can seek repentance and find it. This is contry to the Calvanistic idea that "b. God predestines certain souls to salvation and, esp. in Calvinism, others to damnation" (Collins 2023*W0).

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho​

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.​

"...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be..." (Rev. Dods 1867, Ch 122-End*E1)

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.​

"...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’..." (Rev. Dods 1867, Ch 122-End*E1)

Foreknown "were to believe in Him", and "to believe in Him"​

Justin also uses the term Foreknown, with the phrase "foreknown to believe in him". There is a suggestion with the term "to believe", that God is looking forward to a time when He can see people will believe in Him; at the time before creation He knows there will be those who accept His ways.

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho​

Chap. XLII. — The Bells on the Priest’s Robe Were a Figure of the Apostles.​

"...all the other appointments of Moses I can demonstrate that they were types, and symbols, and declarations of those things which would happen to Christ, of those who it was foreknown were to believe in Him, and of those things which would also be done by Christ Himself..." (Rev. Dods 1867, Ch 36-52*E2)

Chap. LXX. — So also the Mysteries of Mithras Are Distorted from the Prophecies of Daniel and Isaiah.​

"...And this prophecy proves that we shall behold this very King with glory; and the very terms of the prophecy declare loudly, that the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord..." (Rev. Dods 1867, Ch 67-83*E3)

Justin Fights Fatalism and Supports Free Will​

In the following passage Justin Martyr states that the church does not believe in a Fatalistic view of foreknowledge, that man has genuine free will. This idea is also supported by Iranaeus [A.D. 120-202.], who strongly supports free will not Fatalism, as shown below. In summary they say:

• Men have genuine free will to accept or reject God and His commands
• There is no coercion or compulsion with God, He gives us free will to voluntarily accept Him
• Man has power to accept or Reject God, he is not powerless.

Justin Martyr - First Apology​

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted​

"But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made." (Rev. Dods 1867, Ch 26-50*E4)

​

[... passages removed for brevity...]

How should we interpret Romans 8:29-30​

In light of the Early Church, there is 0% chance that Romans 8:29-30 should be read to mean "b. God predestines certain souls to salvation and, esp. in Calvinism, others to damnation" (Collins 2023*W0). The Early Church supports the idea of free agency (free will) in salvation. They state there is no compulsion (forcing of will) with God, that God gives His good will to all people. As is supported by scriptures like "1Timothy 4:10 (NKJV) For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. " and "1 John 2:2 (NKJV) And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world".
Furthermore Romans 8:29-30 can be read to mean the ones foreknown to believe in Jesus. Meaning God knew at creation people would believe in Him, and He marked those ones out for salvation.

 

[Arial]

So, all that says is that one must have the Holy Spirit to enter God's kingdom. It is not an "order" of salvation.

When you respond to the order of salvation I gave in post #142, as I requested three times, then we can continue. I will be waiting. There are two in this exchange, not just you.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

So notice the order of salvation: John 3:3-8


3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[b] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[c] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You[d] must be born again.’ 8 The wind[e] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

This is not an order of receiving the Holy Spirit, it is just stating without the Holy Spirit you can not go to heaven.

John 14 on the other hand is clearly talking about enlightenment. ie. "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

ANd there is an order:

1. We receive God's word
2. We keep it
3. God loves the one who keeps it
4. God manifests HImself to the one He loves

Note however, even though I use terms like "receive God's word", "we keep it", God's command to us is to have faith in His son primarily, and to try to walk out daily our faith in obedience to God's commands, once we are covered by that grace.

 

[Arial]

This is not an order of receiving the Holy Spirit, it is just stating without the Holy Spirit you can not go to heaven.

Sorry. I can't find that anywhere in those scriptures.

ANd there is an order:

1. We receive God's word
2. We keep it
3. God loves the one who keeps it
4. God manifests HImself to the one He loves

There is a lot incorrect in your interpretation of this scripture as giving the order of salvation, but you have God only loving us because we first loved Him, though the Bible says the opposite; and you have us earning His love and then salvation. Grace has left the building.
Now address this scripture that was also given.

Or here: Romans 8:29-30 For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

There is a lot incorrect in your interpretation of this scripture as giving the order of salvation, but you have God only loving us because we first loved Him, though the Bible says the opposite; and you have us earning His love and then salvation. Grace has left the building.

The point is that God gives His word, "first" and the call to grace, so He does first love us. Our response to His call and word determines the love of the Father.

Now address this scripture that was also given.

I already have, back a few posts I respond to it #155.

 

[Arial]

The point is that God gives His word, "first" and the call to grace, so He does first love us. Our response to His call and word determines the love of the Father.

That is quite a jig you are doing.

How should we interpret Romans 8:29-30​

In light of the Early Church, there is 0% chance that Romans 8:29-30 should be read to mean "b. God predestines certain souls to salvation and, esp. in Calvinism, others to damnation" (Collins 2023*W0). The Early Church supports the idea of free agency (free will) in salvation. They state there is no compulsion (forcing of will) with God, that God gives His good will to all people. As is supported by scriptures like "1Timothy 4:10 (NKJV) For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. " and "1 John 2:2 (NKJV) And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world".
Furthermore Romans 8:29-30 can be read to mean the ones foreknown to believe in Jesus. Meaning God knew at creation people would believe in Him, and He marked those ones out for salvation.

You are picking and choosing who to believe outside the Bible, rather than using the Bible to determine what you believe. Some in the early church believed in free agency in salvation. And also some did not. None are the authority on what the Bible teaches. If someone believes in free agency in choosing whether to believe Christ or not, they will find the very scriptures that show that is not the case and reinterpret them to fit what they already believe. It is called confirmation bias. They have to adjust the meanings of the words in Romans 8:29-30 to fit their doctrine, rather than just considering the words in their plain meaning, and in harmony with the whole counsel of God, and accepting it.

If it was meant to convey what you say, one would think it would have been stated clearly in that way. Such as, "Those God knew would believe in Him, these He predestined to believe in Him, and these He predestined He also called, and those He knew at creation would believe in Him He also justified, and these He glorified." You see right after is says those He knew at creation would believe, and these He predestined to believe the whole thing becomes a nonsense sentence. Why would He need to predestine them to believe if He already knew they would believe? Etc. through the rest of the sentence.