Why Our Will Is Not Free to Choose Christ

[Arial]

What do you think original sin is if not the spirit in the unborn or the just born dead in the sin of Adam?

The definition of original sin refers to the effect of all of mankind because of the first sin. There is also the imputed sin of Adam which changed the type of creature we are. We were created a creature who could sin but had not sinned. When Adam sinned we became a creature who sins. A sinful creature.

A spirit is never dead. We are born spiritually dead creatures----that is we are dead in our tresspasses and sins. Indeed because of this we will die physically also, they are what lead us into death. Learn to make distinction and to not conflate things that don't belong together as though they are the same thing.

 

[Johan]

A believer may go through a period or periods of sin for many reasons. Those with addictions that are named as sins by the Bible may wrestle with this addiction for a time. But they know it is sin and they hate it, because it is the Holy Spirit who convicts and God who corrects, and struggle to overcome it. We don't know what is in their heart or what God is doing in them. So habitual sin is not the measure, but a complete lack of repentance. And even that does not mean God will never save them.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

I prefer to stand by what is written @Arial
Johann.

 

[JIM]

The definition of original sin refers to the effect of all of mankind because of the first sin. There is also the imputed sin of Adam which changed the type of creature we are. We were created a creature who could sin but had not sinned.

The only effect on all of mankind because of Adam's sin was that no one, not even Adam and Eve, any longer had access to the Garden of Eden. And there is not imputed sin of Adam to anyone. That is a complete misreading and misunderstanding of Romans 5. God in Chapter 18 in Ezekiel also puts a clamp down on the false notion of the sins of one being imputed to another.

Our spiritual condition at birth is the same as that of Adam when he was made. The ability to choose to disobey is an inherent capability in the human being, not born mentally deficient. And until one has actually done that, he is spiritually alive and complete. Once he sins, he then and only then becomes spiritually dead. Romans 5, particularly verses 18 and 19, when properly understood, tells us that the one act of obedience by Jesus fully countermanded the one act of disobedience by Adam. If the effect of Adam's disobedience was on the unborn, then so also the effect of Jesus' obedience was on the unborn. The biblical message of the effect of Jesus' obedience upon the sinner is taken up in the next chapter (actually beginning in verse 20 of chapter 5).

When Adam sinned we became a creature who sins. A sinful creature.

If Adam wasn't a creature who sins, a sinful creature, then why did he sin? We become sinful creatures when we sin. When Adam sinned, he became a creature who sins, a sinful creature. That had no effect on us whatsoever. God would not and does not impute the sin of one to another.

A spirit is never dead. We are born spiritually dead creatures----that is we are dead in our tresspasses and sins. Indeed because of this we will die physically also, they are what lead us into death.

We are not born spiritually dead. Again, the idea that we are comes from a terribly misunderstanding of Romans 5. We became dead in our trespasses and sins only when we committed that first sin. From that time and only then did we become sinners. The tendency to sin is not sin.

Additionally, physical death does not result from sin. Physical death of all biological entities is a creation given. In fact, the entirety of the physical creation is finite. The tree of life was put in the Garden for Adam and Eve as the means for staving off physical death (Gen 3:22). Romans 6:23 tells us that the wages of sin is death. But we know that is spiritual death not physical death because the counter to that in Romans 6:23 is eternal life., i.e., eternal spiritual life.

Learn to make distinction and to not conflate things that don't belong together as though they are the same thing.

That is an excellent rule to follow. You should follow it. Do not conflate physical death with spiritual death. They are totally unrelated. And Adam's sinfulness and our sinfulness are totally unrelated as well. You cannot blame Adam for your spiritual condition. That is entirely on you. Romans 5:12 says that death, spiritual death, spread to you because you sinned!

Finally, the idea that somehow, in some way, the sin of Adam completely altered God's creation is simply ludicrous. No such power was given to Adam. Nor was it give to Satan. God's creation is His creation; it functions totally and only as He created it to function. There is no indication in the Bible or in all of science that the physics, the chemistry, the biology is now any different than as created by God at the very outset.

 

[Mr GLee]

The definition of original sin refers to the effect of all of mankind because of the first sin. There is also the imputed sin of Adam which changed the type of creature we are. We were created a creature who could sin but had not sinned. When Adam sinned we became a creature who sins. A sinful creature.

A spirit is never dead. We are born spiritually dead creatures----that is we are dead in our tresspasses and sins. Indeed because of this we will die physically also, they are what lead us into death. Learn to make distinction and to not conflate things that don't belong together as though they are the same thing.

What does die when a person takes the last breath?

Did God give Adam a temporal spirit?

Do all spirits return to the father,or do those that are born again receive a new spirit

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Mr GLee]

Our spiritual condition at birth is the same as that of Adam when he was made. The ability to choose to disobey is an inherent capability in the human being, not born mentally deficient. And until one has actually done that, he is spiritually alive and complete. Once he sins, he then and only then becomes spiritually dead. Romans 5, particularly verses 18 and 19, when properly understood, tells us that the one act of obedience by Jesus fully countermanded the one act of disobedience by Adam. If the effect of Adam's disobedience was on the unborn, then so also the effect of Jesus' obedience was on the unborn. The biblical message of the effect of Jesus' obedience upon the sinner is taken up in the next chapter (actually beginning in verse 20 of chapter 5).

When mankind sinned under the letter of the law(real death) in dying mankind came to an end never to rise again.

Everyone will make that appointment to really die once and then the instrument of judgment the letter of the law along with its sufferings unto death will be tossed in the judgment fire of Christ .In the new order it will not rise up and condemn a whole creation

Some teach double jeopardy or a retrial therefore making the letter of the law without effect. That would make room for many false doctrines like LImbo or Purgatory as if there is life after one take thier last breath .

 

[JIM]

When mankind sinned under the letter of the law(real death) in dying mankind came to an end never to rise again.

Maybe you would rewrite that sentence. I am having a hard time figuring out what you said and what you meant by it. Mankind did not sin. Men did. And are you speaking of the resurrection here?

Also your second sentence is a bit confusing as well.

 

[Mr GLee]

Maybe you would rewrite that sentence. I am having a hard time figuring out what you said and what you meant by it. Mankind did not sin. Men did. And are you speaking of the resurrection here?

Also your second sentence is a bit confusing as well.

HI thanks sorry

The sin of mankind . .men and women created as one . Using the witness of two throughout the bible ( 1# let there be and 2# it was good) . The Father and the bride . Adam failed and lied to Eve as a false prophet, false apostle adding to the word " neither shall you touch it"

Rather than protect her he used here as scapegoat believed his own lie. . . when she touch it he ate also . Lose of virtue two walking as one "father and Son" virtue restored

 

[Arial]

I prefer to stand by what is written @Arial

You seem to think I said something that was against what was written and without saying what that is post a series of scripture quotes---all of which I believe and understand.

 

[Mr GLee]

If Adam wasn't a creature who sins, a sinful creature, then why did he sin? We become sinful creatures when we sin. When Adam sinned, he became a creature who sins, a sinful creature. That had no effect on us whatsoever. God would not and does not impute the sin of one to another

We know satan who was to protect the glory of creation as a false glory put his words in the mouth of a serpent before his legs were cut off so he could no longer walk in understanding with God In efect saying look at my beauty you shall surely not die . . why believe in a God not seen .Death by the instrument of death the letter of the law.

But he does impute the righteousness of another? What does that righteousness do?

What kind of effect does the righteousness of Christ's work as he works in dying mankind to both reveal his will and empower them to do it to his good pleasure? Salvation ?

 

[JIM]

I mean no offense here, but I am simply not able to follow your thinking here. So I think I am done trying.

 

[Mr GLee]

I mean no offense here, but I am simply not able to follow your thinking here. So I think I am done trying.

Thanks sorry no offence from me

 

[Arial]

Our spiritual condition at birth is the same as that of Adam when he was made. The ability to choose to disobey is an inherent capability in the human being, not born mentally deficient. And until one has actually done that, he is spiritually alive and complete. Once he sins, he then and only then becomes spiritually dead. Romans 5, particularly verses 18 and 19, when properly understood, tells us that the one act of obedience by Jesus fully countermanded the one act of disobedience by Adam. If the effect of Adam's disobedience was on the unborn, then so also the effect of Jesus' obedience was on the unborn. The biblical message of the effect of Jesus' obedience upon the sinner is taken up in the next chapter (actually beginning in verse 20 of chapter 5).

A person has to be in Christ in order to be of Christ. Oddly enough, in your scenario, even though Christ died on the cross some 2000 years ago to pay for the sins of those who would be given to Him, and that took them out of Adam so all start with a clean slate, we are still in the same condition as before---unable to never sin and all still do.

Romans 5:18-19 Therefore ( which indicates that what follows is connected in Paul's mind with what he said before) as through one man's offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

All men in this context: all types, ethnicities, languages, nations etc.

Many in context with what we have given in other places: a great number.

 

[Arial]

Our spiritual condition at birth is the same as that of Adam when he was made. The ability to choose to disobey is an inherent capability in the human being, not born mentally deficient. And until one has actually done that, he is spiritually alive and complete. Once he sins, he then and only then becomes spiritually dead. Romans 5, particularly verses 18 and 19, when properly understood, tells us that the one act of obedience by Jesus fully countermanded the one act of disobedience by Adam. If the effect of Adam's disobedience was on the unborn, then so also the effect of Jesus' obedience was on the unborn. The biblical message of the effect of Jesus' obedience upon the sinner is taken up in the next chapter (actually beginning in verse 20 of chapter 5).

A person has to be in Christ in order to be of Christ. Oddly enough, in your scenario, even though Christ died on the cross some 2000 years ago to pay for the sins of those who would be given to Him, and that took them out of Adam so all start with a clean slate, we are still in the same condition as before---unable to never sin and all still do.

Romans 5:18-19 Therefore ( which indicates that what follows is connected in Paul's mind with what he said before) as through one man's offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

All men in this context: all types, ethnicities, languages, nations etc.

Many in context with what we have given in other places: a great number.

 

[JIM]

A person has to be in Christ in order to be of Christ. Oddly enough, in your scenario, even though Christ died on the cross some 2000 years ago to pay for the sins of those who would be given to Him, and that took them out of Adam so all start with a clean slate, we are still in the same condition as before---unable to never sin and all still do.

Romans 5:18-19 Therefore ( which indicates that what follows is connected in Paul's mind with what he said before) as through one man's offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

All men in this context: all types, ethnicities, languages, nations etc.

Many in context with what we have given in other places: a great number.

That is not the "all men" and the "many" that you assign to the results of Adam's sin. Those you take to be every single human being, save Jesus Christ Himself alone, who has ever lived or will ever live and that at the instant of their birth (or before).

You change the meanings and the implications mid-sentence -- really poor exegesis.

As the result of Adam's disobedience is applied to everyone at birth, so also is the result of Jesus obedience is applied to everyone at birth. That is the only rational application of the "Therefore as through....even so through...." and the "For as by....so also by...." grammatical constructions. Also, the significant points being made by such constructions is always the second feature.

Thus, if you are consistent in your analysis, it will become clear, or at least it should, that the result of Jesus' obedience as set aside completely the results of Adam's disobedience. It says nothing at all about any sins committed by the individuals themselves, the "all men" and the "many". Paul has stated previously in verse 12 what that is, namely, "death spread to all men because all sinned-- "

Paul then proceeds to address that specifically. He says, in verses 20-21, "Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Paul continues in Chapter six with "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin" (6:3-7). That is what the results of Jesus' obedience provides for the sins of the individuals.

 

[JIM]

Oddly enough, in your scenario, even though Christ died on the cross some 2000 years ago to pay for the sins of those who would be given to Him, and that took them out of Adam so all start with a clean slate, we are still in the same condition as before---unable to never sin and all still do.

I won't bother at this time to address what appears to be your view of "Once Saved, Always Saved", except to note that your concerns remain even in your view of regeneration. So whether the clean slate begins at birth, gets muddied up with subsequent sins and then is recleaned (regeneration) at some later date, you are "in the same condition as before---unable to never sin and all still do".

 

[Arial]

I won't bother at this time to address what appears to be your view of "Once Saved, Always Saved", except to note that your concerns remain even in your view of regeneration. So whether the clean slate begins at birth, gets muddied up with subsequent sins and then is recleaned (regeneration) at some later date, you are "in the same condition as before---unable to never sin and all still do".

It has nothing to do with OSAS. I know we are in the same condition after the advent of Christ as we were before. It is you who says we are not. That our sinfulness has nothing to do with Adam. Jesus gave us a clean slate on the cross according to you and then we sin, and then He redeems us.

 

[Arial]

That is not the "all men" and the "many" that you assign to the results of Adam's sin. Those you take to be every single human being, save Jesus Christ Himself alone, who has ever lived or will ever live and that at the instant of their birth (or before).

What? That makes no sense.

You change the meanings and the implications mid-sentence -- really poor exegesis.

How did I do that? Show me. Explain.

As the result of Adam's disobedience is applied to everyone at birth, so also is the result of Jesus obedience is applied to everyone at birth.

The result of Jesus' obedience is applied to no one until they believe. And the result of His obedience is His righteousness being counted as our own through our trust in Him, and that is what justifies us before God, and reconciles us to Him. Or do you not believe in imputed righteousness either? The result of of Christ's obedience and out trust in Him, is what takes us out of Adam. And why? Because it places us in Christ instead.

That is the only rational application of the "Therefore as through....even so through...." and the "For as by....so also by...." grammatical constructions. Also, the significant points being made by such constructions is always the second feature.

I just gave you the only rational application above. Well you depart from logic and the entire bulk of scripture, is your starting premise that Jesus' death on the cross resulted in everyone being taken out of Adam. That is the only reason you see your interpretation as the only logical one. But you are mistaken in that belief and so find some other place in scripture---anyplace---besides this one set of scriptures in Romans, that agrees with your premise and your interpretation of Romans. IOW support it from other parts of the Bible. I'll be waiting.

Thus, if you are consistent in your analysis, it will become clear, or at least it should, that the result of Jesus' obedience as set aside completely the results of Adam's disobedience. It says nothing at all about any sins committed by the individuals themselves, the "all men" and the "many". Paul has stated previously in verse 12 what that is, namely, "death spread to all men because all sinned-- "

You seem to be arguing for both sides of the argument because you are not focusing on the false premise. That being that Jesus' obedience set aside completely the results of Adam's disobedience. It obviously did not, for we still have everyone being disobedient and unable to not be disobedient. I am completely consistent in my analysis. I just don't start from a premise taken from the middle, while ignoring everything Paul said before and after. And one (yours) that contradicts the rest of the Bible on man's condition and how he got there..Pay attention to the "therefores." They are important.

Paul then proceeds to address that specifically. He says, in verses 20-21, "Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Right. How is that saying that Jesus' obedience set aside completely the results of Adam's disobedience? It only does that after we are joined to Him in faith. And only for those who are joined to Him in faith. The rest remain in Adam.

Paul continues in Chapter six with "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin" (6:3-7). That is what the results of Jesus' obedience provides for the sins of the individuals.

Only those who have been baptized into Christ, and were buried with Him, united with Him. Not as you say, Jesus' obedience resulted in setting aside the results of Adam's disobedience, for all men when they are born.

 

[Mr GLee]

A person has to be in Christ in order to be of Christ. Oddly enough, in your scenario, even though Christ died on the cross some 2000 years ago to pay for the sins of those who would be given to Him, and that took them out of Adam so all start with a clean slate, we are still in the same condition as before---unable to never sin and all still do.

Romans 5:18-19 Therefore ( which indicates that what follows is connected in Paul's mind with what he said before) as through one man's offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

All men in this context: all types, ethnicities, languages, nations etc.

Many in context with what we have given in other places: a great number.

One thing the demonstration was not the actual work. Christ signified as a Lamb was slain from the foundation the six days he did work. The promises to come and suffer the father striking the heel of the the son man jesus born of a woman had power crying out for strength to finish the work of the two was finished .

Then they moved on the the second part the the hill bloody cross a sign to the whole world. Believers had prophecy no need for signs. Signs are for those who believe not prophecy hopefully moving them to investigate the unseen things of God

Genesis 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

Isaiah 53 :4-6 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.(not dead) But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes (from the father" we are healed.All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53 :10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: (not kill) when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

We know that Christ eternal God cannot die.He worked in the Son of man strenthing him so that he would not .

The Lazarus account four days the lord strengthened him keeping him from death never to rise .

 

[Arial]

We know that Christ eternal God cannot die.He worked in the Son of man strenthing him so that he would not .

Christ the man died. That was our punishment. He rose from the dead because He had no sin of HIs own and therefore death could not hold Him. It is in this that He defeated both sins power and deaths power over those for whom He died.

 

[Mr GLee]

Christ the man died. That was our punishment. He rose from the dead because He had no sin of HIs own and therefore death could not hold Him. It is in this that He defeated both sins power and deaths power over those for whom He died.

Hi Thanks
Christ (to anoint as teacher ) is an attribute or work of God's labor of love Christ is not a man he is the infalible unseen one good teaching Master that worked in the Son of man Jesus just as with others did when hearing the will of the father

He warns of the false apostles, false prophets called the antichrists they as a false teaching authority teach we must have dying mankind as the teacher

The Holy anointing Spirit of God is not dying mankind He must do the teaching we abide in the teacher according to his promises (John 14) to teach guide comfort and last but not least bring to our memory the previous thing he has taught us . no claims to fame. same reward eternal life

1 john 2: 26-27 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

John 14:25-26 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.