• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

Why Our Will Is Not Free to Choose Christ

Arial

Admin
Staff member
Joined
May 27, 2023
Messages
7,177
Reaction score
6,149
Points
175
Faith
Christian/Reformed
Country
US
Politics
conservative
When God created Adam it could be said that he was created with a free will in the sense that he could make choices without coercion one way or the other when given a choice. At the same time, he was subject to God's will as seen by the warning given and the results of disobedience. He was in no way autonomous. He was duty bound to obey God. God set a choice before him in the Garden of Eden. He commanded him to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and gave him the results of doing so. We can speculate endlessly on why God did that, or whether or not Adam already knew evil in some form (he certainly knew by God's proclamation that he shouldn't eat of that tree) if he knew right and wrong, etc. but what we have is enough. Adam and Eve disobeyed God and there was a catastrophic shift in all of mankind's relationship with God. He put them out of the world He had created for them which is seen as the place where the dwelled with Him.

Why did He do this? We see in Romans 5:12-21 in Adam all became sinners. And this means much more than the individual sins we all commit, it refers to the type of creature we became. Before Adam's transgression mankind under Adam's headship of all mankind to follow, we were created perfect and holy in the image and likeness of God who is holy and perfect and we were created to dwell with Him. After the transgression, and for the same reason of Adam's headship of all mankind to follow, we became a sinful creature not a holy creature.

Adam and Eve were put out of the garden because sin cannot dwell with God. The unholy cannot approach the Holy. We see this in the Mosaic sacrificial system, through the cleansings and the sacrifices of substitution, that were put in place while we awaited the Redeemer, the Holy, to be the final sacrifice for the true cleansing of sin and the sin nature in its power to condemn, by the substitution of one made like us, but without sin.

It is God who says the sinner cannot come to Him. We have it upside down, thinking the way of salvation is for a sinner to choose Christ. It isn't about us. It is about God. He alone is Holy, Holy, Holy. Or even when we posit that utter depravity means that we can't/don't come to Him because we are unwilling, that we are by nature at enmity with God. That we view that passage as meaning we consider God our enemy when in fact, God considers us (mankind) His enemy. It is God who forbids a sinful man to approach Him in any way shape or form. He must be cleansed first. A sinful man cannot approach Christ, who is God, and Holy, Holy, Holy. God must cleanse them first. And this He does in the new birth by the Holy Spirit, applying the work of Christ to him. Then and only then may He come to Christ, and this same grace that He sends to save, opens his ears to hear the voice of the Shepherd, the gospel, and he receives it with joy. God gives him to Jesus.

It is Christ's righteousness counted as our own that gives us access to His throne. Nothing we choose and nothing we do. It is by the grace of God who gives us to Christ our righteousness.
 
When God created Adam it could be said that he was created with a free will in the sense that he could make choices without coercion one way or the other when given a choice. At the same time, he was subject to God's will as seen by the warning given and the results of disobedience. He was in no way autonomous. He was duty bound to obey God. God set a choice before him in the Garden of Eden. He commanded him to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and gave him the results of doing so. We can speculate endlessly on why God did that, or whether or not Adam already knew evil in some form (he certainly knew by God's proclamation that he shouldn't eat of that tree) if he knew right and wrong, etc. but what we have is enough. Adam and Eve disobeyed God and there was a catastrophic shift in all of mankind's relationship with God. He put them out of the world He had created for them which is seen as the place where the dwelled with Him.

Why did He do this? We see in Romans 5:12-21 in Adam all became sinners. And this means much more than the individual sins we all commit, it refers to the type of creature we became. Before Adam's transgression mankind under Adam's headship of all mankind to follow, we were created perfect and holy in the image and likeness of God who is holy and perfect and we were created to dwell with Him. After the transgression, and for the same reason of Adam's headship of all mankind to follow, we became a sinful creature not a holy creature.

Adam and Eve were put out of the garden because sin cannot dwell with God. The unholy cannot approach the Holy. We see this in the Mosaic sacrificial system, through the cleansings and the sacrifices of substitution, that were put in place while we awaited the Redeemer, the Holy, to be the final sacrifice for the true cleansing of sin and the sin nature in its power to condemn, by the substitution of one made like us, but without sin.

It is God who says the sinner cannot come to Him. We have it upside down, thinking the way of salvation is for a sinner to choose Christ. It isn't about us. It is about God. He alone is Holy, Holy, Holy. Or even when we posit that utter depravity means that we can't/don't come to Him because we are unwilling, that we are by nature at enmity with God. That we view that passage as meaning we consider God our enemy when in fact, God considers us (mankind) His enemy. It is God who forbids a sinful man to approach Him in any way shape or form. He must be cleansed first. A sinful man cannot approach Christ, who is God, and Holy, Holy, Holy. God must cleanse them first. And this He does in the new birth by the Holy Spirit, applying the work of Christ to him. Then and only then may He come to Christ, and this same grace that He sends to save, opens his ears to hear the voice of the Shepherd, the gospel, and he receives it with joy. God gives him to Jesus.

It is Christ's righteousness counted as our own that gives us access to His throne. Nothing we choose and nothing we do. It is by the grace of God who gives us to Christ our righteousness.
It is God who chooses us....we don't choose God.

....and now the part people don't like....God doesn't choose everyone.
 
Adam and Eve were put out of the garden because sin cannot dwell with God.
No, Adam and Eve were put out of the garden so that they could not have access to the fruit of the tree of life and live forever (Gen 3:22).

Though I agree that sin cannot dwell with God.
 
Last edited:
No, Adam and Eve were put out of the garden so that they could not have access to the fruit of the tree of life and live forever (Gen 3:22).

Though I agree that sin cannot dwell with God.
Why could they not be allowed to have access to the tree of life and live forever? Look at the whole picture, not just singular sentences as the source of a complete conclusion.
 
Why could they not be allowed to have access to the tree of life and live forever? Look at the whole picture, not just singular sentences as the source of a complete conclusion.
I am just quoting God's own words for the reason that He ejected Adam and Eve from the Garden. What you choose to infer from those words is up to you. I don't necessarily disagree with you.
 
Amen. We certainly have the natural ability to choose God but not tge moral ability.
Yes it is God who chooses those He saves in Christ. And yes we have the natural ability to choose God but not the moral ability, in that we don't want to. But that is only the human side of what happened. That deals with us. But we are the result of the internal effect on the human race.

If we put God at the center, and it is about God and not us, what is the perspective? The doctrine of utter or total depravity, when described, is often couched in us, and not God. And I do not believe that is what Calvin or the other reformers had in mind, as the theology is always God centered. We simply lose sight of that.

So it is God who is holy and mankind who has become a sinful creature that is the true barrier to our being able to come to Him in our sinful state. Not just our personal sins, but the nature of a sinful creature we inherited from Adam. We cannot dwell with Him where He is. (This of course does not apply to the regenerate whom He has cleansed with the blood of Jesus.)

In losing sight of this, Calvinists, as we see, get into many arguments with A'ists, in which it becomes a back and forth. The C'ist shows truthfully and accurately our inability to choose God, is able to support it with scripture. The other side counters with look over here, (referring to specific instances of choosing in the old covenant) it says we can choose. It assumes choice in all the scriptures that say repent and believe, all of which can be soundly refuted by the C'ist. But the debate is never resolved it remains circular.

What stops the argument in its tracks, though will seldom break through the wall of resistance, is that it is God who says we cannot approach Him or enter His kingdom because He is holy and we are sinful creatures. A sinful creature is our makeup. We must be cleansed first, and that can only be done by Him. Faith does not cleanse us. God cleanses us in regeneration and faith in the person and work of Christ is the gift of that cleansing. He gives those He chooses to regenerate to Christ, counting His righteousness as their own, since Jesus took the just penalty for them upon Himself. And not only our personal sins but He takes us out of Adam---placing us instead in Christ. Romans 5.

It cannot be a matter of one simply choosing to believe. That would be a sinful creature who cannot change who he is to be like a leopard changing its spots. God forbids what is sinful to come before His throne. That would be sin touching the Holy and then the Holy making him holy as a reward. We have plenty of examples in scripture that to do so results in instant death, and if His mercy spares them for His own purposes, judgement eventually comes.
 
I am just quoting God's own words for the reason that He ejected Adam and Eve from the Garden. What you choose to infer from those words is up to you. I don't necessarily disagree with you.
How about you answer the question? Why could they not be allowed to live forever?
 
Yes it is God who chooses those He saves in Christ.
Yes of course. But that is not the issue. The issue is upon what basis God chooses those He saves in Christ.
 
Yes of course. But that is not the issue. The issue is upon what basis God chooses those He saves in Christ.
That is not the issue at all. God tells us that He does so according to His good pleasure and purpose, without giving us the details of what those are. So if you think you know the specifics, then you have gone outside of the Bible, or added into the Bible, in order to get that information. You have presumed to peer into the mind of God.
 
How about you answer the question? Why could they not be allowed to live forever?
How about you answer the question. Why did God eject them from the Garden?
 
That is simply not true.
That does not qualify as an argument, a defense, or anything else. If you say something isn't true, it is useless unless you show why it isn't true and what is true. This forum isn't meant to me just "tell", but "show and tell." If you can't show, there is no point in telling. It just becomes a forum where many come to argue endlessly and uselessly.
 
I can somewhat agree, but the natural state of man is fallen.
I think natural ability here is being used as we are able to make choices. That is the type of being we are, one who makes choices.
 
I think natural ability here is being used as we are able to make choices. That is the type of being we are, one who makes choices.
Thanks for the clarification.

Keeping in mind a fallen man can make a choice. Perhaps wearing a red shirt or a blue shirt...or...buying a Ford or a Chevy...

The line divides when it pertains to coming to Christ where God has to grant man that ability.
 
Thanks for the clarification.

Keeping in mind a fallen man can make a choice. Perhaps wearing a red shirt or a blue shirt...or...buying a Ford or a Chevy...

The line divides when it pertains to coming to Christ where God has to grant man that ability.
True. But does He grant them the ability to come to Christ, or does He cleanse them with regeneration which brings them into Christ? Are both true, and the first from man's perspective, and the second from God's perspective which is the reality. The first only looks that way to us because it is the only perspective we have, and how it takes place in our economy. And we only have words bound within the finite to describe what takes place in the infinite.
 
It is Christ's righteousness counted as our own that gives us access to His throne. Nothing we choose and nothing we do. It is by the grace of God who gives us to Christ our righteousness.

How does a choice destroy Grace?
 
How does a choice destroy Grace?
It misapplies grace, reduces it to a possibility and not an actuality. It in effect no longer is grace as it is only effectual if one makes the right choice.

But how can a sinful being choose to come to the Holy just because they want to? Would that not be the choice of the Holy, the sovereign God, to remove their sin so they can come in, and do come in? We do not come to God, we are alienated from Him. He comes to us.
 
How about you answer the question. Why did God eject them from the Garden?
I did. In the OP. Now you answer the question. If you want, you can go copy my answer. Now answer the question, "Why could they not be allowed to live forever?"
 
I did. In the OP. Now you answer the question. If you want, you can go copy my answer. Now answer the question, "Why could they not be allowed to live forever?"
Yes, you did, but it was not God's answer. It was only your conjecture. God gave the reason in Genesis 3:22-23. Not only did he send Adam ane Eve out of the garden to keep them from eating from the tree of life, He set a cherubim and a flaming sword to guard the way to that tree of life.
 
Back
Top