Why Our Will Is Not Free to Choose Christ

[JIM]

Why did He do this? We see in Romans 5:12-21 in Adam all became sinners.

But, you are so wrong with that.

So many always read what they want to see in those verses, They so seldom see what Paul was actually saying. In the "as...so..." constructions like verses 18 and 19, the real message to be garnered is the second part, the "so...." part where in verse 18 it says "so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men" and in verse 19 it says "so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." But the Calvinist, and too many others, cannot accept what Paul actually said, but must insert their own misguided soteriology. The reason they do that is apparent; to accept what it says destroys completely their entire soteriological doctrine.

Thus what might have been the situation were it not for the obedient act of righteousness of Jesus Christ, all men would at birth been condemned; however, because of that one obedient act of righteousness of Jesus Christ, all men are at birth made righteous. After that, of course, condemnation, i.e., death, "spread to all men because all sinned--" (v.12).

 

[Arial]

Yes, you did, but it was not God's answer. It was only your conjecture. God gave the reason in Genesis 3:22-23. Not only did he send Adam ane Eve out of the garden to keep them from eating from the tree of life, He set a cherubim and a flaming sword to guard the way to that tree of life.

In other words you do not know, yet you without fear speak for God and against me, and all who disagree with you. Your answer does not answer the question. Why could they not be allowed to live forever? You only repeat what it says in the scriptures. If you can't answer the question, how can you say I am wrong?

I really do wish people would learn what having a conversation is and what responding to a post is. Forums are chock full of such who only come to argue and to go against something, making them toxic and unproductive. This forum has the intention of being different. If you don't start doing so posts are subject to possible deletion.

Four questions for you to mull over and come up with a conclusion.

Is God holy?
Can the unholy and sinful dwell with the Holy? And if not, is it man who cannot come to God or is it God who says man in his sinful condition an not come to Him? Is it our choice or is it His?

 

[Arial]

So many always read what they want to see in those verses, They so seldom see what Paul was actually saying. In the "as...so..." constructions like verses 18 and 19, the real message to be garnered is the second part, the "so...." part where in verse 18 it says "so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men" and in verse 19 it says "so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." But the Calvinist, and too many others, cannot accept what Paul actually said, but must insert their own misguided soteriology. The reason they do that is apparent; to accept what it says destroys completely their entire soteriological doctrine.

I can't even tell what you are saying Paul is saying. But I know very well what Paul was saying, and it is just as I said it was.

What is the correct soteriological doctrine according to you?

Do you have anything to to support that Calvinists have an incorrect sorteriology other than your say so?

 

[JIM]

In other words you do not know, yet you without fear speak for God and against me, and all who disagree with you. Your answer does not answer the question. Why could they not be allowed to live forever? You only repeat what it says in the scriptures. If you can't answer the question, how can you say I am wrong?

I didn't say you were wrong. I only said it was not God's answer. I gave you God's answer.

And as a matter of fact, in Reply #4, I said "I agree that sin cannot dwell with God".

 

[Arial]

I didn't say you were wrong. I only said it was not God's answer. I gave you God's answer.

If it isn't God's answer it must be the wrong answer. You gave and answer to the question if the question had been, "What did God do to Adam and Eve after they sinned?" But that wasn't the question. The question was "Why could God not allow them to live forever?"

And as a matter of fact, in Reply #4, I said "I agree that sin cannot dwell with God"

If sin cannot dwell with God or approach Him how is a sinful creature able to invite himself into the kingdom by his own choice? Wouldn't he have to be cleansed first?

 

[JIM]

I can't even tell what you are saying Paul is saying. But I know very well what Paul was saying, and it is just as I said it was.

What is the correct soteriological doctrine according to you?

Do you have anything to to support that Calvinists have an incorrect sorteriology other than your say so?

Paul is saying that we do not come into this world as sinners. The spirit that God forms in each of us is not dead; rather it is alive. It becomes dead when we sin. It is then and only then that we become dead in trespasses and sins. God has not imputed Adam's sin upon all men at birth. It is not Original Sin; rather it is Original Grace. What each of us does after that to warrant God's condemnation is on each of us and only us.

By the way, that is why it is called REgeneration; the spirit of man, when he believes, is regenerated to what it was when God formed it initially.

 

[JIM]

If sin cannot dwell with God or approach Him how is a sinful creature able to invite himself into the kingdom by his own choice? Wouldn't he have to be cleansed first?

One can't invite himself into the kingdom, even if cleansed. One can however request to be invited. God answers that request by cleansing.

 

[CrowCross]

It misapplies grace, reduces it to a possibility and not an actuality. It in effect no longer is grace as it is only effectual if one makes the right choice.

But how can a sinful being choose to come to the Holy just because they want to? Would that not be the choice of the Holy, the sovereign God, to remove their sin so they can come in, and do come in? We do not come to God, we are alienated from Him. He comes to us.

Well said.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It misapplies grace, reduces it to a possibility and not an actuality. It in effect no longer is grace as it is only effectual if one makes the right choice.

Grace is certainly a possibility. There are many aspects to Grace. The Advent of Jesus Christ brought Grace to humanity. Some recognized it. Some did not. Grace is not destroyed because it is not effectual. God is Gracious to all men.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Notice the comparison. In like manner to the law being given by Moses, Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ.

But how can a sinful being choose to come to the Holy just because they want to? Would that not be the choice of the Holy, the sovereign God, to remove their sin so they can come in, and do come in? We do not come to God, we are alienated from Him. He comes to us.

They can't. They must rely upon the effort of another. They can not help themselves. Reliance is by definition.... a lack of effort.

Jesus Christ came to this world. We now preach His Advent and work.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

[Arial]

Grace is certainly a possibility. There are many aspects to Grace. The Advent of Jesus Christ brought Grace to humanity. Some recognized it. Some did not. Grace is not destroyed because it is not effectual. God is Gracious to all men.

You are conflating all meanings/usages of grace into one. We are talking about saving grace.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Notice the comparison. In like manner to the law being given by Moses, Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ.

I cannot understand the point you are trying to make and how it relates to saving grace (which is what is being addressed in that scripture. The difference between law and grace.) What does grace and truth do that the law could not?

They can't. They must rely upon the effort of another. They can not help themselves. Reliance is by definition.... a lack of effort.

Jesus Christ came to this world. We now preach His Advent and work.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Could you just say what you mean and how it relates to sinful man choosing to approach God? This is like a riddle to me the parts which I must decipher as to what you are saying.

 

[Reformedguy]

I can somewhat agree, but the natural state of man is fallen.

I was referring to our ability, not our stare.

 

[Arial]

Paul is saying that we do not come into this world as sinners. The spirit that God forms in each of us is not dead; rather it is alive. It becomes dead when we sin. It is then and only then that we become dead in trespasses and sins. God has not imputed Adam's sin upon all men at birth. It is not Original Sin; rather it is Original Grace. What each of us does after that to warrant God's condemnation is on each of us and only us.

By the way, that is why it is called REgeneration; the spirit of man, when he believes, is regenerated to what it was when God formed it initially.

There is absolutely nothing in scripture that supports this, certainly not Romans 5. It is the most convoluted perspective on salvation I have heard and the only one of its kind. It contradicts the Bible from beginning to end, so no point in even trying to discuss it with you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You are conflating all meanings/usages of grace into one. We are talking about saving grace.

I cannot understand the point you are trying to make and how it relates to saving grace (which is what is being addressed in that scripture. The difference between law and grace.) What does grace and truth do that the law could not?

Could you just say what you mean and how it relates to sinful man choosing to approach God? This is like a riddle to me the parts which I must decipher as to what you are saying.

Make the distinction from the Scriptures. Grace is grace. They are different aspects to Grace but it is always unmerited.

Acts 17 speaks for itself. God designed this life that man might seek Him. This is contrary to the title of the thread. There are many natural things that are designed to break us all. To destroy our stubborn wills. To tame our rebellious nature. The Gospel is light in darkness.

 

[JIM]

There is absolutely nothing in scripture that supports this, certainly not Romans 5. It is the most convoluted perspective on salvation I have heard and the only one of its kind. It contradicts the Bible from beginning to end, so no point in even trying to discuss it with you.

It is precisely what Romans 5 says. To read it otherwise is to change the meaning of words midway in the sentences. There is no legitimate exegesis that would allow that. But hey, I understand that you would not want to discuss it; it totally destroys the entire Calvinist/Reformed soteriology.

Actually, everything in scripture supports that fact that the spirit that God forms in each of us is not dead. That anyone could believe the spirit that God forms in each of us is dead is absolutely grotesque. I honestly do not understand how anyone could believe that God would do such a thing.

 

[JIM]

Make the distinction from the Scriptures. Grace is grace. They are different aspects to Grace but it is always unmerited.

Acts 17 speaks for itself. God designed this life that man might seek Him. This is contrary to the title of the thread. There are many natural things that are designed to break us all. To destroy our stubborn wills. To tame our rebellious nature. The Gospel is light in darkness.

Unmerited does not mean unconditional. If I offered to send you a million dollars if you would simply send me your name and address, and if you sent me your name and address and I then sent you a million dollars, would you consider that merited? Would you really try to say that you earned that million dollars? Would you claim that my gift to you was not a gift of grace because you satisfied the conditions?

 

[Mr GLee]

How does a choice destroy Grace?

Grace empowers us to make a choice some murrur what about me?? They forget where the power comes from to both believe and do the will . Jesus did it with delight

Philippians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

 

[Mr GLee]

destroys the entire Calvinist/Reformed soteriology.

Just the opposite it is supports what some call Calvinist reformed theology .

Which portion of Romans 5 are you looking at?

 

[Mr GLee]

I think natural ability here is being used as we are able to make choices. That is the type of being we are, one who makes choices.

Mankind made the wrong choice empowered by the father of lies rather that empowered by God to believe

They obeyed the voice of a stranger the leader of the false apostles false prophets. Satan in efect saying . . You shall surely not die and never rise to new life . . look at my beauty as the false creator ,.... why believe in a eternal God not seen . . SSSSSSSssss

 

[JIM]

Just the opposite it is supports what some call Calvinist reformed theology .

Which portion of Romans 5 are you looking at?

All of it.

 

[Mr GLee]

Which part informs us that God gave the son more than as many he did give to the Son?

John 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 8:30As he spake these words, many believed on him.

Ask one self who gave us power to see beyond what the eyes see? Who gave mankind the lying power