Why do Calvinists debate?

[makesends]

This conversation on causes and first causes etc is not to be carried on in this thread as I said in post #31. What has now happened is you responded to it reverting back to the conversation that was ongoing in the linked thread, so @Josheb has taken it up again responding to your response after being told not to. It is not the topic of the OP and is very distracting to it, not to mention a tangled up mess. Take it back to where it belongs. Both of you. There is a good chance someone else will jump in not paying attention to what the OP and hippity hop down the rabbit trail. By tomorrow I will delete this post and Joshebs response to it, to give you time to move it or start a new thread. Hopefully the rabbit trail will not have already begun.

My bad. I didn't see #31 in time to avoid continuing. Feel free to delete as you see fit, anything I have said. I'm far enough down the trail that I don't have the ambition to retrace my steps, nor to insert copy-paste out of sequence in the other thread. It's just not worth it to me.

Edit: I did see #31, but didn't realize by your referencing it here what you were referring to. I forgot what thread we were in when I continued with the Off-Topic debate. Again, my bad.

 

[makesends]

Yes, this reminds me of Psalms 18 which gives me chills every time I read it.

@Mercy_Shown I want to apologize for going off topic so. I have no intention of derailing your thread.

 

[makesends]

His holiness is more than just His moral perfection, it is His otherness.

Love that whole post, by the way, but this is a most-important point, I want to comment on. It is not that he is morally perfect, as though he too must live up to some standard. He is altogether consumingly pure. It is not perfection of virtue, but the very definition of virtue.

As some old writer said, something like, "It is not because God is good that he does good things. Rather, the things that God does are good because HE does them." Or maybe it went like, "It is not because they are good that God does good things. Instead, Good is what it is, because God is good."

 

[makesends]

He brings people to where they can make that choice. It all rides on that choice. If we submit to Him he is able and just to save us. If we resist He delivers us over to the darkness we love.

John 3:18 "...already condemned..."

You would have eternity hinge on the integrity of your own frail, ignorant, petulant, self-important, stubborn, rebellious, self-blinding, heart's choice? My younger years were full of fear of being left behind, because I KNEW my heart was not trustworthy, but I had been taught what you declare here.

But worse, according to Romans 8, until a person has been made new by the indwelling Spirit of God, he is at enmity with God, nor can he even please God.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

John 3:18 "...already condemned..."

You would have eternity hinge on the integrity of your own frail, ignorant, petulant, self-important, stubborn, rebellious, self-blinding, heart's choice? My younger years were full of fear of being left behind, because I KNEW my heart was not trustworthy, but I had been taught what you declare here.

But worse, according to Romans 8, until a person has been made new by the indwelling Spirit of God, he is at enmity with God, nor can he even please God.

No, you are describing the heart before it is lit by the light that lights every man. God brings people to the point where they can see and choose. They cannot be Christians but they can choose to submit to the renewing of their minds. The Bible doesn't say, "This mind will be in you which was in Christ Jesus," No it says, "Let this mind be in you." Without our choice involved, we are companion robots for God. At the deepest level, we have been manipulated and made to be righteous without our consent. I don't see God in that light.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

The continuing theme throughout scripture is God, period. He is not appealing to men to be reconciled to Him, as one pleading. He commands our obedience and He commands our righteousness.

If God simply commands our righteousness, then He is commanding the impossible. He says that He has come "to preach good tidings unto the meek, bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound. Sin binds us and Christ unbinds us but we are free to return to our sin as a pig returns to its wallowing in the mud. Why anyone would is beyond me but God does not chain us to His side for eternity. He wants our freely given love.

What you present is a misapprehension of our position as a creature, one He created, compared to His position as self existent, eternal and completely other than us. His holiness is more than just His moral perfection, it is His otherness. He reconciles any to Himself because He wants to. We can not reconcile ourselves to Him, we are born in iniquity. He is making a way for us to be reconciled and that is through the person and work of Jesus.

God is no longer otherness, He is Emanuel, He is now one of us. It is our mission to speak on God's behalf, appealing to mankind to be reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
God has done it all becoming sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. But reconciliation is a two-party action that brings both parties into harmony and peace.

This is just a presumption from only seeing things from the human perspective and then defining them as such. It also completely warps the Reformed teaching. It argues from the position that irresistible grace or effectual grace would make pets or puppets out of people, when it does no such thing. That they are forced to love Him and follow Him, when in fact they are given a whole new birth, a new creation in Christ.

But without their consent.

One that does love Him. And He did create us righteous. But He also created us corruptible and mortal. Why is something you will have to ask Him, but if it was something He intended we know or we needed to know, He would have in His word. We are not the center of His purpose. His glory is. And what He is doing through the redemption of a people has the end result of one who is not corruptible (because all that can corrupt Him is destroyed) and therefore is immortal. His immutibleness is not relevant. Not in the way you have used it.

If We are not the center of His purpose why does He refer to us as the apple of His eye? Why are we engraved upon the Palms of His hand?

Please support the statement that He brings people to where they can make that choice. Then we can examine it together and see if that is correct or not.

Hebr 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

These individuals

• were enlightened
• tasted of the heavenly gift
• shared in the Holy Spirit
• tasted the goodness of the word of God
• tasted the powers of the coming age

This is the resume of saints and yet they were free to resist it and they did. God brought them to enlightenment

Peter mentions this very same thing in 2 Peter 2:20-22.

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

These people have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This is the light that lights everyone born on this earth. And yet they were free to return to their resistance.

It is to God's glory that he allows us to choose.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Not that it is relevant, but, where does Scripture say the ark was open to all who would come? Maybe I can learn something here.

The Spirit of God contended with the people but it would not forever. Gen 6:3 Who was the preacher of righteousness back then? Noah 2 Peter 2:5. While the ark was being built God waited patiently 1 Peter 3:20. Why does God wait patiently? Because He is not willing that any should perish.

 

[prism]

One attempts to show the other 'the way of God more perfectly'.

Acts 18:26 (KJV) And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

..Arminians are prone to debate as much as Calvinists.

 

[makesends]

No, you are describing the heart before it is lit by the light that lights every man. God brings people to the point where they can see and choose.

You were doing real good up til here. You have here described Regeneration —being born again.

They cannot be Christians but they can choose to submit to the renewing of their minds. The Bible doesn't say, "This mind will be in you which was in Christ Jesus," No it says, "Let this mind be in you." Without our choice involved, we are companion robots for God. At the deepest level, we have been manipulated and made to be righteous without our consent. I don't see God in that light.

The people Paul addressed by, "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus." were already believers —regenerated and saved. Too late to make it about soteriology.

You need to do more than express your feelings about robothood and manipulation, which are both non-descriptive of what Calvinism teaches.

 

[makesends]

The Spirit of God contended with the people but it would not forever. Gen 6:3 Who was the preacher of righteousness back then? Noah 2 Peter 2:5. While the ark was being built God waited patiently 1 Peter 3:20. Why does God wait patiently? Because He is not willing that any should perish.

So, it doesn't say they were offered a ride. Thanks.

God waited patiently for the ark to be built, while the population in general continued their wickedness —not, waited patiently for more than the 8 to board it. You are assuming facts not in evidence.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

So, it doesn't say they were offered a ride. Thanks.

God waited patiently for the ark to be built, while the population in general continued their wickedness —not, waited patiently for more than the 8 to board it. You are assuming facts not in evidence.

Why would he wait patiently for the ark to be built? Are you saying that He is willing that many should perish?

 

[Mercy_Shown]

You were doing real good up til here. You have here described Regeneration —being born again.

In your view perhaps, but I disagree. Nicodemus was enlightened enough to seek out Christ and yet he was not born again at that point.

The people Paul addressed by, "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus." were already believers —regenerated and saved. Too late to make it about soteriology.

If you do not have Christ, you are none of his. God is love and not manipulation or force.

You need to do more than express your feelings about robothood and manipulation, which are both non-descriptive of what Calvinism teaches.

No one has made that clear. When I read what reformed theology says about irresistible grace, it is just that irresistible. No one upon whom it shines can resist and those upon whom it does not shine will never be drawn. If it quacks like a duck...

 

[Mercy_Shown]

One attempts to show the other 'the way of God more perfectly'.

Acts 18:26 (KJV) And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

..Arminians are prone to debate as much as Calvinists.

Of course, but they claim that the people need convincing because they have free will. People hate to be wrong and so we debate. We don't do it to convince anyone since that seldom if ever happens. We do it for other reasons.

 

[makesends]

Why would he wait patiently for the ark to be built? Are you saying that He is willing that many should perish?

Because when the ark was finished, he was going to destroy the wicked.

 

[makesends]

In your view perhaps, but I disagree. Nicodemus was enlightened enough to seek out Christ and yet he was not born again at that point.

If you do not have Christ, you are none of his. God is love and not manipulation or force.

No one has made that clear. When I read what reformed theology says about irresistible grace, it is just that irresistible. No one upon whom it shines can resist and those upon whom it does not shine will never be drawn. If it quacks like a duck...

The demons also believe and tremble. There are many curious, some that even make an emotional commitment. Some that even make an intellectual commitment. But until God changes their heart, they have no salvific faith. There is belief, and then, there is John 3:16 belief. Many even make their commitment, but they still have no salvific faith, until the Spirit of God moves in and transforms them from death to life. Ephesians 2.

 

[Ladodgers6]

First of all, full disclosure. If I were to choose between being on an Island with only Amininists or one with only Calvinists, I would choose the latter since the sincere ones would be fully relying on God alone for their salvation. But I am not fully convinced that the Tulip doesn't have at least one plastic petal albeit an insignificant one of no salvific properties.

Calvinism, it seems to me is preoccupied with how one is saved whereas Aminianism wrings its hands over how to be saved. But, If I understand it correctly, in essence, Calvinism says "It is finished" and there is nothing one can do about it. So why would a Calvinist argue doctrine since it will not change the outcome of what God's sovereignty dictates? What is the core reason to argue forgone conclusions if they are truly forgone?

I will add that the Classical Calvinist will say it's all of Grace, while the Arminian will say that it's man's decision to be saved or not. As far as why debate. Because false teachings has plagued the church since the beginning, Christ cursed the Scribes and Pharisees, and Paul cursed the false teachers. Preaching the Gospel is what commanded.

If one is sealed signed and delivered by Christ to an eternity in paradise, it should not matter whether others believe it or not. Right? Lastly, if we take Calvinism to its logical conclusion, one does not even have to ascribe to reformed theology to be saved: It is God's choice alone and not what one does or believes. So even Arminians can be saved if God chooses them. So why argue?

Because the Reformation was all about Grace Alone in those dark ages. These false ideologies & synergistic theologies want to pervert the proclamation of Law & Gospel. We have to defend it and protect it by preaching the right Gospel.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

I will add that the Classical Calvinist will say it's all of Grace, while the Arminian will say that it's man's decision to be saved or not. As far as why debate. Because false teachings has plagued the church since the beginning, Christ cursed the Scribes and Pharisees, and Paul cursed the false teachers. Preaching the Gospel is what commanded.

But did He not do so because it could influence the decisions some would make as to whether to choose to submit or resist? If Christ made His grace irresistible then false teachings would not be an issue that needed to be addressed.

Because the Reformation was all about Grace Alone in those dark ages. These false ideologies & synergistic theologies want to pervert the proclamation of Law & Gospel. We have to defend it and protect it by preaching the right Gospel.

Protect it from what? Defend it from what? With God Irresistible is irresistible. How can even these false ideologies and synergistic theologies change the course of irresistible Grace?

 

[Mercy_Shown]

The demons also believe and tremble. There are many curious, some that even make an emotional commitment. Some that even make an intellectual commitment. But until God changes their heart, they have no salvific faith. There is belief, and then, there is John 3:16 belief. Many even make their commitment, but they still have no salvific faith, until the Spirit of God moves in and transforms them from death to life. Ephesians 2.

If they are willing. Jesus desired to change the hearts of Israel. He longed to take them under His wing, but they were unwilling. Did not God shine His grace upon His chosen people? Does not God desire that all men should be saved? There is no doubt that without the intervention of God, the heart would be incapable of understanding spiritual things. But once one is enlightened, tasting of the heavenly gift, sharing in the Holy Spirit, and seeing the goodness of God to the point of experiencing the powers of the coming age, they can make an informed choice to submit or resist and crucify Christ in their hearts.

 

[Arial]

Love that whole post, by the way, but this is a most-important point, I want to comment on. It is not that he is morally perfect, as though he too must live up to some standard. He is altogether consumingly pure. It is not perfection of virtue, but the very definition of virtue.

As some old writer said, something like, "It is not because God is good that he does good things. Rather, the things that God does are good because HE does them." Or maybe it went like, "It is not because they are good that God does good things. Instead, Good is what it is, because God is good."

Yes. All God's attributes (as we call them)are perfect and equal all of the time. I Am that I AM.

 

[Arial]

My bad. I didn't see #31 in time to avoid continuing. Feel free to delete as you see fit, anything I have said. I'm far enough down the trail that I don't have the ambition to retrace my steps, nor to insert copy-paste out of sequence in the other thread. It's just not worth it to me.

Edit: I did see #31, but didn't realize by your referencing it here what you were referring to. I forgot what thread we were in when I continued with the Off-Topic debate. Again, my bad.

No problem. I saw how the conversation was going in the other thread and there is no way it would not do the same thing here, because of the depth of the topic. It couldn't help but become a thread within a thread.