Why do Calvinists debate?

[Mercy_Shown]

Bottom line: "Theological Systematics" are TOTALLY UNIMPORTANT in terms of becoming Born Again. Salvation is predicated on GOD'S WORD TO YOU (Conviction of SIN). And Repentance, and calling on God for salvation in FAITH none of which depends on this or that "Theological system".

You're not even CAPABLE of understanding the Bible, or God's kingdom, before you're indwelled by the Holy Spirit (which is what makes you a Christian).

"Isms" are what "Religious people" confuse themselves with, and how "theologians" earn their paychecks.

I stepped back from the forum for a few days because I felt the old man in me rising instead of the sweet Spirit of Christ. The fact is, God is love and He so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. You are right. Theologians of all stripes often split hairs, make distinctions without a difference, coin words, create -sims--including schisms--, and parse Grace, carving it up like a Thanksgiving turkey. That doesn't mean they all do. Even a few Pharisees followed Christ.

God wills that all men should be saved and He died not only for our sins but for the sins of the whole world. I must remember that it is not my place to argue this in place of God, it is only to cast His seeds based on what He has done for and in me. God only has one kind of Grace and He poured it out onto all the world through Christ and He draws all people onto Himself by being lifted up.

Love would not make the elect an offer they literally cannot refuse while making the unelected an offer they literally cannot accept. Praise be to God for his love, mercy, and justice, and may He never have to weep over us saying, "But they would not."

God is love--Amen.

 

[Arial]

God only has one kind of Grace and He poured it out onto all the world through Christ and He draws all people onto Himself by being lifted up.

No one is saying that God has different kinds of grace. I am saying that His grace provides different things. His grace brings rain on a dry and thirsty land. His grace does not destroy us after Adam's transgression. His grace brings snow out of His storehouse, causes grass to grow for the wild beasts, and grain to feed man and animal. His grace sends judgment on every evil power in the unseen places, on all who follow those powers. His grace keeps the foundations of the earth secure, and all the stars and sun and moon faithfully in place and running their circutts. His grace saves a people for Himself. But it always does exactly what He purposes it to do.

Love would not make the elect an offer they literally cannot refuse while making the unelected an offer they literally cannot accept. Praise be to God for his love, mercy, and justice, and may He never have to weep over us saying, "But they would not."

First of all salvation is not an offer it is a provision, provided through the person and work of Christ. It is a provision that encompasses all men in that the gospel goes worldwide to all nations and types of people without distinguishing ethnically, by position (rich and poor),male or female etc. The crux of the matter is not really accepting or rejecting but believing or not believing. Unless God changes the heart of a man through regeneration he cannot believe the gospel because in his natural state he does not want to. We all begin that way. Last I checked, God has the right to bring all into His house, none into His house, or to choose who does come into His house. Just as He chose Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Israel. Just as He chose David, and just as He chose the king of Assyria to bring judgement on rebellious, unfaithful Israel. Just as He chose Mary and just as He chose Joseph, Zechariah and Elizabeth and their son John the Baptist. Just as He chose the twelve disciples including the son of perdition who would betray Jesus.

So why would one now insist that out of the blue, and contrary to all this that we have seen of God, that it is not love if God chooses who will be in His kingdom?

 

[Mercy_Shown]

No one is saying that God has different kinds of grace. I am saying that His grace provides different things. His grace brings rain on a dry and thirsty land. His grace does not destroy us after Adam's transgression. His grace brings snow out of His storehouse, causes grass to grow for the wild beasts, and grain to feed man and animal. His grace sends judgment on every evil power in the unseen places, on all who follow those powers. His grace keeps the foundations of the earth secure, and all the stars and sun and moon faithfully in place and running their circutts. His grace saves a people for Himself. But it always does exactly what He purposes it to do.

First of all salvation is not an offer it is a provision, provided through the person and work of Christ. It is a provision that encompasses all men in that the gospel goes worldwide to all nations and types of people without distinguishing ethnically, by position (rich and poor),male or female etc. The crux of the matter is not really accepting or rejecting but believing or not believing. Unless God changes the heart of a man through regeneration he cannot believe the gospel because in his natural state he does not want to. We all begin that way. Last I checked, God has the right to bring all into His house, none into His house, or to choose who does come into His house. Just as He chose Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Israel. Just as He chose David, and just as He chose the king of Assyria to bring judgement on rebellious, unfaithful Israel. Just as He chose Mary and just as He chose Joseph, Zechariah and Elizabeth and their son John the Baptist. Just as He chose the twelve disciples including the son of perdition who would betray Jesus.

So why would one now insist that out of the blue, and contrary to all this that we have seen of God, that it is not love if God chooses who will be in His kingdom?

He loves all men and wishes that all would be saved. And yes the gift of God is offered. All gifts are offered. Even provisions can be offered.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

He loves all men and wishes that all would be saved. And yes the gift of God is offered. All gifts are offered. Even provisions can be offered.

I think you probably don't know what effectual calling is. God works in such a way as to enable us to have faith at the same relative time period that we are born again. He did that, not you.

 

[makesends]

I stepped back from the forum for a few days because I felt the old man in me rising instead of the sweet Spirit of Christ. The fact is, God is love and He so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. You are right. Theologians of all stripes often split hairs, make distinctions without a difference, coin words, create -sims--including schisms--, and parse Grace, carving it up like a Thanksgiving turkey. That doesn't mean they all do. Even a few Pharisees followed Christ.

God wills that all men should be saved and He died not only for our sins but for the sins of the whole world. I must remember that it is not my place to argue this in place of God, it is only to cast His seeds based on what He has done for and in me. God only has one kind of Grace and He poured it out onto all the world through Christ and He draws all people onto Himself by being lifted up.

Love would not make the elect an offer they literally cannot refuse while making the unelected an offer they literally cannot accept. Praise be to God for his love, mercy, and justice, and may He never have to weep over us saying, "But they would not."

God is love--Amen.

Does the sweet love of God demand without exception the death of even infants of pagan nations in the Old Testament—and even punishes those who spare some lives?

Why do you assume the command to obey includes the ability to do so?

 

[fastfredy0]

He loves all men

The definition of God's Love is: a passionless, immutable, holy (separated from evil, ethical Habakkuk 1:13b You cannot look on wickedness with favor, 1 Corinthians 13:6 Love rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth) disposition to favor (goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight,) according to the ethical loveliness and divine likeness of the object which is a bond of unity – Colossians 3:14 for everything is bound together in agreement when each one seeks the best for others); God himself and those “in Christ” being bonded in agreement.

.... or put simply .. it's a disposition to favor

Premise1 : 95%+ of humanity (excluding age of accountability possibility) will spend 99.999% of their lives in hell
Premise2: Existing in hell is NOT favorable
Conclusion: God does not love most people in comparison to those in heaven

Premise 1: God does not change
Premise 2: Those He loves IN CHRIST God always loves IN CHRIST (though He is outside of time)
Conclusion: God never salvificly loved most people

Premise1: God's LOVE is defined as God's volition to favor
Premise2: God shows everyone without distinction favor to some degree (allowing them to exist for example, allowing them food to eat)
Conclusion: God loves everyone without distinction to some degree

.... when it comes to love, the devil is in the details

 

[Arial]

He loves all men and wishes that all would be saved. And yes the gift of God is offered. All gifts are offered. Even provisions can be offered.

You have said that before. It is the very thing I countered. But you evidently are not going to demonstrate beyond opinion that my counter is invalid, or even address all that choosing God always does, or why at the most critical point of His purpose, He changes course from any course He ever "traveled" before, and became in effect, not the same God anymore. So I will leave you in peace.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

You have said that before. It is the very thing I countered. But you evidently are not going to demonstrate beyond opinion that my counter is invalid, or even address all that choosing God always does, or why at the most critical point of His purpose, He changes course from any course He ever "traveled" before, and became in effect, not the same God anymore. So I will leave you in peace.

It is not my place nor intention to prove anyone wrong. That is God’s purview. If one chooses to believe gifts are not offered that is what they have chosen. But most people believe that it is a characteristic of a gift, part of what makes it a gift.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

The definition of God's Love is: a passionless, immutable, holy (separated from evil, ethical Habakkuk 1:13b You cannot look on wickedness with favor, 1 Corinthians 13:6 Love rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth) disposition to favor (goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight,) according to the ethical loveliness and divine likeness of the object which is a bond of unity – Colossians 3:14 for everything is bound together in agreement when each one seeks the best for others); God himself and those “in Christ” being bonded in agreement.

.... or put simply .. it's a disposition to favor

Premise1 : 95%+ of humanity (excluding age of accountability possibility) will spend 99.999% of their lives in hell
Premise2: Existing in hell is NOT favorable
Conclusion: God does not love most people in comparison to those in heaven

Premise 1: God does not change
Premise 2: Those He loves IN CHRIST God always loves IN CHRIST (though He is outside of time)
Conclusion: God never salvificly loved most people

Premise1: God's LOVE is defined as God's volition to favor
Premise2: God shows everyone without distinction favor to some degree (allowing them to exist for example, allowing them food to eat)
Conclusion: God loves everyone without distinction to some degree

.... when it comes to love, the devil is in the details

I use 1 Cor 13. What a challenging definition of love.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Does the sweet love of God demand without exception the death of even infants of pagan nations in the Old Testament—and even punishes those who spare some lives?

Why do you assume the command to obey includes the ability to do so?

Are you prepared to defend all of the attributes of God in the Books of History, if so, it will be an interesting thread on its own.

I don’t know about you but most folks pick and choose what they want out of those attributes and rationalize away the ones they do not like.

As to your question, yes, God can give and take life at will so it is not the horror to Him as it is to us. And since He is love and He is God all of His actions are motivated by his love for his creation. Being God, we mortals can’t possibly understand all that He does but we can know it is from love since that is what He has told us He is.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

I think you probably don't know what effectual calling is. God works in such a way as to enable us to have faith at the same relative time period that we are born again. He did that, not you.

God wills that all men should be saved. Who can resist his will?

So either all will be saved by His effectual Grace or some do resist His will.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

God wills that all men should be saved. Who can resist his will?

So either all will be saved by His effectual Grace or some do resist His will.

You didn't resist his will then. So you are saved. Those that resist his will go to hell. You didn't save yourself.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

You didn't resist his will then. So you are saved. Those that resist his will go to hell. You didn't save yourself.

Yes, God saves all thoughts who do not resist . Looking through the scriptures it sees that pride plays a huge roll in what kind of soil we are.

Jesus died for all sin. There is no sin by anyone that was not paid for by His blood. He has the rights to all souls but will not change anyone who does not desire to be changed.

 

[makesends]

Are you prepared to defend all of the attributes of God in the Books of History, if so, it will be an interesting thread on its own.

Are you prepared to defend subsuming all God's attributes under your notion of love?

I don’t know about you but most folks pick and choose what they want out of those attributes and rationalize away the ones they do not like.

Present company excluded, no doubt.

As to your question, yes, God can give and take life at will so it is not the horror to Him as it is to us. And since He is love and He is God all of His actions are motivated by his love for his creation. Being God, we mortals can’t possibly understand all that He does but we can know it is from love since that is what He has told us He is.

So what is your problem with what I teach (if you even know what it is)?

Curiously, I hadn't predicted in my mind that you would attempt to excuse God, as though love doesn't consider death a horror. I should think you would be pleasantly surprised to know that I think we get such things completely backwards. The glib notion that God doesn't see it as a horror may be more accurately represented by the idea that God sees it as much worse than we can know, but not in comparison with the glory that is to be revealed.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Are you prepared to defend subsuming all God's attributes under your notion of love?

Not my notion, no. But under His revelation, yes.

Present company excluded, no doubt.

We would have to start a thread and examine the subject before I can answer that question.

So what is your problem with what I teach (if you even know what it is)?

Curiously, I hadn't predicted in my mind that you would attempt to excuse God, as though love doesn't consider death a horror.

God does not see it as a Horror. “ Pleasant in his sight is the death of his saints.“

Jesus conquered death.

I should think you would be pleasantly surprised to know that I think we get such things completely backwards. The glib notion that God doesn't see it as a horror may be more accurately represented by the idea that God sees it as much worse than we can know, but not in comparison with the glory that is to be revealed.

God sees it as a conquered foe. “O’Death, where is they sting…“

 

[Mercy_Shown]

So what is your problem with what I teach (if you even know what it is)?

I am sure, you teach many things. Which specific teaching do you have in mind?

 

[makesends]

Not my notion, no. But under His revelation, yes.

His revelation is the truth, and pays your notion of love no heed. (Nor mine, btw., just in case you wanted to go there).

We would have to start a thread and examine the subject before I can answer that question.

You are the one who broached it. And you did it without examining the veracity of your accusation?

God does not see it as a Horror. “ Pleasant in his sight is the death of his saints.“

We weren't talking about his saints, were we...?

Jesus conquered death.

God sees it as a conquered foe. “O’Death, where is they sting…“

Well, I guess that one flew right on by, too. Oh well.

I am sure, you teach many things. Which specific teaching do you have in mind?

You've been railing against me all these pages, as if I was the —what was it— 'Christian Illuminatii' or something(?), and you don't know what I teach?

By the way, who is this you say you call "Christian Illuminatii"? I've never heard of it. I've asked just who you are talking about, asked for an example, a quote, a citation, maybe a video. Can you tell me who you have been talking about all this time?

 

[Arial]

It is not my place nor intention to prove anyone wrong. That is God’s purview. If one chooses to believe gifts are not offered that is what they have chosen. But most people believe that it is a characteristic of a gift, part of what makes it a gift.

I know I said I would leave you in peace, allow me to point out again: In Eph 2 it states the following, "By grace you are saved through faith, and that is not of yourselves but is a gift of God---"

• Salvation is by grace. In other words, it is freely given (and if it is only offered and depends of something from the person, it is no longer grace).
• Salvation is through faith (and that would be trust in the person and work of Jesus alone).
• This faith is a gift given by God.​

First of all, does it say anywhere in there or even imply it, that this faith is merey offered or that any sort of choice is involved?

Second, how can faith be offered and a choice of whether to have it or not coexist? If you have it, ou have it. If your don't have it, it wasn't given.

If you respond to this, please, please, please address what I said in a way that counters it instead of just repeating your position. How and what is wrong with what I presented? Show me from scripture, not proof texts, what is true instead.

In my post #382 I put a great deal into it and you did not even consider any of the points I made, let alone discuss or counter them, and that gets very frustrating, and makes it as though I am talking to a wall. Why is it that all I said in that post and in all my posts, count as nothing in this conversation? Why can't it be a two way conversation in which you discuss what I say, and not just selected parts, in the same way in which I discuss what you say?

 

[Arial]

If one chooses to believe gifts are not offered that is what they have chosen. But most people believe that it is a characteristic of a gift, part of what makes it a gift.

How important is truth? As to the gift and your statement about most people, that would be because they are using a human analogy and interpreting God accordingly. Every analogy of God when pushed will eventually crumble in the dust, and this one doesn't even make it out of the starting gate without becoming "God does as I do."

 

[Mercy_Shown]

I know I said I would leave you in peace, allow me to point out again: In Eph 2 it states the following, "By grace you are saved through faith, and that is not of yourselves but is a gift of God---"

• Salvation is by grace. In other words, it is freely given (and if it is only offered and depends of something from the person, it is no longer grace).

If I give a gift to someone they are still free to accept it or reject it. That is the nature of a gift. The acceptance of a gift is not considered a payment for it. Since God wills that all should be saved and if His gift cannot be rejected, then all shall be saved, but the bible says some will be lost.

• Salvation is through faith (and that would be trust in the person and work of Jesus alone).

This is an action on our part.

• This faith is a gift given by God.​

It is given to everyman.

First of all, does it say anywhere in there or even imply it, that this faith is merey offered or that any sort of choice is involved?

All gifts are offered. If something is forced upon you, it is not a gift. It is an obligation.

Second, how can faith be offered and a choice of whether to have it or not coexist? If you have it, ou have it. If your don't have it, it wasn't given.

Everyman is given it so everyman has or at least had it.

If you respond to this, please, please, please address what I said in a way that counters it instead of just repeating your position. How and what is wrong with what I presented? Show me from scripture, not proof texts, what is true instead.

In my post #382 I put a great deal into it and you did not even consider any of the points I made, let alone discuss or counter them, and that gets very frustrating, and makes it as though I am talking to a wall. Why is it that all I said in that post and in all my posts, count as nothing in this conversation? Why can't it be a two way conversation in which you discuss what I say, and not just selected parts, in the same way in which I discuss what you say?