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Why do Calvinists debate?

How important is truth? As to the gift and your statement about most people, that would be because they are using a human analogy and interpreting God accordingly. Every analogy of God when pushed will eventually crumble in the dust, and this one doesn't even make it out of the starting gate without becoming "God does as I do."
Definitions are important and the meaning of a word is the soul of that word. A gift is offered. A gift is not forced upon someone. What would you do with a gift other than offer it? I admit that this has devolved into silliness. A gift is offered to a recipient. In every thesaurus I have checked "offering" is a synonym for "gift." Unless we go offroad and make up our own definitions, a gift is given and "offer" is also a listed synonym for "give."
 
Definitions are important and the meaning of a word is the soul of that word. A gift is offered. A gift is not forced upon someone. What would you do with a gift other than offer it? I admit that this has devolved into silliness. A gift is offered to a recipient. In every thesaurus I have checked "offering" is a synonym for "gift." Unless we go offroad and make up our own definitions, a gift is given and "offer" is also a listed synonym for "give."
What God means is everything, and everything that God means is equal to the sum total of who He is. Just as world can be applied in numerous ways so can "gift." So if the Bible says faith is a gift from God, does that also not have to relate to who God is, not what man is? And if this faith has content---for it is not a package wrapped up with a ribbon as is suggested----and the content of that faith is trust in Jesus alone, how is it even possible for it to be a mere offering. Faith isn't outside a person, it is inside a person, and if it is a gift from God, it is inside that person. Would you also say that when scripture states that God gives the gift of life, it is merely offered, to be accepted or rejected? When it says that Jesus is life, and the way to God, and truth, and that He gives life to whom the Father gives Him, that it means Jesus offers life, take it or leave it? So it if is faith in Jesus that is a gift, does it mean take it or leave it.

Are we not told that it is God who quickens us to life when we are dead in our sins---and not offers us life, take it or leave it? And does Jesus not tell us that we must be born again, born from above, to even comprehend (see) the kingdom of God. And if we are born again from above, are we born dead and offered life as our choice? Or are we born the second time in the same way as we were born the first---without our consent or choice, but by the decree and will of our Father?
 
If I give a gift to someone they are still free to accept it or reject it. That is the nature of a gift. The acceptance of a gift is not considered a payment for it. Since God wills that all should be saved and if His gift cannot be rejected, then all shall be saved, but the bible says some will be lost.
This is not about one person giving a gift to another. Your reasoning is backwards as it begins with man and works back to God when it should begin with God and work down to men. God does not will that all be saved. He has been exacting justice and judgment from the beginning, long before this supposed gift was offered or before the giver of the gift arrived. A human being is born with the requirement to obey His Maker and reflect His image. Not all are saved because He never intended to save all. Does such an idea of God disturb you? And yet it cannot be denied, except by moving to Denial and living there.
 
First of all, full disclosure. If I were to choose between being on an Island with only Amininists or one with only Calvinists, I would choose the latter since the sincere ones would be fully relying on God alone for their salvation. But I am not fully convinced that the Tulip doesn't have at least one plastic petal albeit an insignificant one of no salvific properties.

Calvinism, it seems to me is preoccupied with how one is saved whereas Aminianism wrings its hands over how to be saved. But, If I understand it correctly, in essence, Calvinism says "It is finished" and there is nothing one can do about it. So why would a Calvinist argue doctrine since it will not change the outcome of what God's sovereignty dictates? What is the core reason to argue forgone conclusions if they are truly forgone?

If one is sealed signed and delivered by Christ to an eternity in paradise, it should not matter whether others believe it or not. Right? Lastly, if we take Calvinism to its logical conclusion, one does not even have to ascribe to reformed theology to be saved: It is God's choice alone and not what one does or believes. So even Arminians can be saved if God chooses them. So why argue?
Same answer as before -
Calvinists debate to "prove" their systematic to be the "Accurate" one, and everybody else's to be incorrect.
Simple as that. Arminians, Catholics, Jehovah witnesses, Mormons, and others do it for the same reason: "We're right, and you're not".
 
I use 1 Cor 13. What a challenging definition of love.
OK. Let's take that definition. Does God love and treat everyone equally according to that definition, or is it speaking of a special love He has for His covenant people and therefore they are to have with their covenant brethren.

If you say love with God is equal across the board and within that definition, you have a lot of Scripture to explain away. In the NT Romans 1:18-32 and the following two chapters would be one. Ananias and his wife another. Then there are all those places in the OT where He strikes people dead for even touching holy things, sending Israel into other nations to kill, and kill some more.
 
Not my notion, no. But under His revelation, yes.
If God subsumed any of His attributes under other attributes, He would not be God any longer. He would be schizophrenic. A house divided against itself.
 
This is an action on our part.
Then t is a work and no longer by grace.
It is given to everyman.
Demonstrate that!
All gifts are offered. If something is forced upon you, it is not a gift. It is an obligation.
What I asked was there anything in that scripture about faith being offered or that any sort of choice was involved. I did not ask for your definition of gift or your notion that if it isn't offered then it is forced. That is a point of view, not evidence.
Everyman is given it so everyman has or at least had it.
That assumes everyone is given faith and I want to know where Scripture says any such thing. How can one believe something and not believe it at the same time?
 
His revelation is the truth, and pays your notion of love no heed. (Nor mine, btw., just in case you wanted to go there).
His is very challenging.
You are the one who broached it. And you did it without examining the veracity of your accusation?
What accusation?
We weren't talking about his saints, were we...?

Well, I guess that one flew right on by, too. Oh well.
Death is not a horror to God. It is a conquered foe.
You've been railing against me all these pages, as if I was the —what was it— 'Christian Illuminatii' or something(?), and you don't know what I teach?
Railing against you? Christian Illuminati? You must have me confused with
By the way, who is this you say you call "Christian Illuminatii"? I've never heard of it. I've asked just who you are talking about, asked for an example, a quote, a citation, maybe a video. Can you tell me who you have been talking about all this time?
You must have me mistaken for someone else.
 
Then t is a work and no longer by grace.

Demonstrate that!
It is just what the Bible says.
What I asked was there anything in that scripture about faith being offered or that any sort of choice was involved. I did not ask for your definition of gift or your notion that if it isn't offered then it is forced. That is a point of view, not evidence.
What? It was a gift offered to mankind. If it was not offered it was not a gift.
That assumes everyone is given faith and I want to know where Scripture says any such thing. How can one believe something and not believe it at the same time?
Such is the human condition. As the distraught father said to Jesus, “ I believe, help thou my in belief.”

The bible say God gives every man a measure of faith.
 
OK. Let's take that definition. Does God love and treat everyone equally according to that definition, or is it speaking of a special love He has for His covenant people and therefore they are to have with their covenant brethren.
The Bible calls it love with no attached modifiers. So then must I.
If you say love with God is equal across the board and within that definition, you have a lot of Scripture to explain away. In the NT Romans 1:18-32 and the following two chapters would be one. Ananias and his wife another. Then there are all those places in the OT where He strikes people dead for even touching holy things, sending Israel into other nations to kill, and kill some more.
If you use the OT to define God, then you must submit that He was not omnipotent and needed to repent.

We know that the actions of God are love.
 
🍿
chumps on my popcorn
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Re: @Mercy_Shown responses

Last time I saw so many deflections and irrelevancies it was Alejandro Mayorkas (Homeland Security) telling us the border was secure.

🍿
chumps on my popcorn
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I really appreciate how you have described things here, and I hope that this helps the opening poster understand.

I'll add a few musings to the pot.

Human ignorance of the future is limited human perception of possibility. I can allow that I don't know what will happen, and as such multiple things can be possible, from my very limited perspective, because of my ignorance. But this is not true for God, Who knows the end from the beginning; and Who works all things according to the counsel of His will (Eph. 1:11). My limited, inadequate perception of the future is catastrophically less determinative than God's unlimited, perfect knowledge of all things, past, present, and future. So I can grant the appearance of certain things from a limited, ignorant human perspective that are impossible to be otherwise, from God's perspective.

Ultimate ontological possibility places chance in the driver's seat. Chance is one of those annoying features of libertarian freedom for its advocates, and it will remain as long as they assert the ability to do otherwise. For the only way one can do otherwise, is if he/she actually can "be" otherwise than what he is at the moment of choice. It's that "chance" component that mows down the coherence of the very idea of responsibility for libertarian freedom. But every time that libertarian advocates try to argue against chance; they also argue against their own principle, the ability to do otherwise (sometimes called the principle of alternate possibilities: pap for short).

Big distinction being made between "perceptual possibility" and "ontological possibility".
Very well put, btw. Thanks. A pleasure to read again.
 
The Bible calls it love with no attached modifiers. So then must I.

If you use the OT to define God, then you must submit that He was not omnipotent and needed to repent.

We know that the actions of God are love.
Love as a work God work that he works in us has attachments. it's not a free for all just jum in get loved

1 Corhtitains 13 : 4-7 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

If he was not a God who suffers long giving us the fullness of his grace the whole cost of salvation. Then the second as peck of his love, it is kind. if not patent long sufferings it could never be kind and therefore easily provoked seeking it own not rekices in truth as it is written (sola scriptura
If you use the OT to define God, then you must submit that He was not omnipotent and needed to repent.

If you use the OT to define God, then you must submit that He is omnipotent and does not need to repent. Same God who changes not
 
Very well put, btw. Thanks. A pleasure to read again.
Part of the reason for making the distinction is to separate two distinct positions that can be conflated as an argument for ontological possibility.

To utilize limited, ignorant, human perception as an argument for ontological possibility (as some do) is to make an argument from silence; and the argument ignores God's perfect knowledge failing to recognize the relevance of God's perfect knowledge and ontological sustaining upon the argument. I've seen it over and over, where God's perfect knowledge is placed in a dependent position to the primary cause of man's will, but this violates divine aseity and human ontological dependence in basic theology. The Open Theist says that God learns, and often the Arminian says that there is no temporal learning in God, but they often atemporally make God's knowledge dependent upon human choice (God knows what man will choose, and God is depicted as a passive onlooker, which creates a logical dependence upon man's choice).

And all this goes back to the issue of the person trying to safeguard their idea of libertarian freedom. The ability to do otherwise (ontological possibility) reigns supreme, and everything else must be constructed to be in line with it.
 
Love as a work God work that he works in us has attachments. it's not a free for all just jum in get loved

1 Corhtitains 13 : 4-7 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

If he was not a God who suffers long giving us the fullness of his grace the whole cost of salvation. Then the second as peck of his love, it is kind. if not patent long sufferings it could never be kind and therefore easily provoked seeking it own not rekices in truth as it is written (sola scriptura


If you use the OT to define God, then you must submit that He is omnipotent and does not need to repent. Same God who changes not
God repented several places in the OT.
 
No if doesn't. Nobody but you is saying that force is applied or manipulation being exercised in the new birth but you. If you are going to argue with Calvinist you can't do so by arguing what it isn't. That is a strawman.
Please...

Rather than telling us what it is simply not so?

Please tell us what Calvinists actually do believe concerning bringing souls into the new birth.
For the concept of "irresistible grace" confuses many into thinking that God forces us to believe.

Personally, I believe God forces us into state of mind that frees up our soul from the tyranny of the flesh.
In doing so? That allows one's soul to make a choice.

In that state of enforced grace from God?
Enabling man to think from his soul minus the oppressive tyranny of their flesh?
One is also free to reject God. Reject just like certain angels had done from their unfallen state.

Please explain how Calvinists believe God brings souls into the new birth as to clear up the confusion
surrounding the concept caused by.. the concept of irresistible grace. That way, is not God forcing us to believe?

We need to hear what Calvinists actually believe, rather than always being told what Calvinists do not believe.
Please explain in your own words....

grace and peace....
 
Rather than telling us what it is simply not so?

Please tell us what Calvinists actually do believe concerning bringing souls into the new birth.
For the concept of "irresistible grace" confuses many into thinking that God forces us to believe.
I have many times. probably even in this thread and you are responding to something that was posted way back in Dec. I will show you what the Bible says about it, which is where the Reformers found it.

John 3:1-14 (And if it too much for you to read, then don't argue against it.)
Ez 36:26
Romans 8:29-30
Eph 2:1-10

Whether or not it confuses some or many people is beside the point. If they are not going to go past the acronym to find out what it means and just stick with a gut reaction and attack the entire theology because of that gut reaction---that's on them.

The doctrine teaches that saving grace is effectually applied to those He has determined to save.

Personally, I believe God forces us into state of mind that frees up our soul from the tyranny of the flesh.
In doing so? That allows one's soul to make a choice.

In that state of enforced grace from God?
Enabling man to think from his soul minus the oppressive tyranny of their flesh?
One is also free to reject God. Reject just like certain angels had done from their unfallen state.
Is that scripture or conjecture. Conjecture is just confusing and usually a thousand miles off the mark.
Please explain how Calvinists believe God brings souls into the new birth as to clear up the confusion
surrounding the concept caused by.. the concept of irresistible grace. That way, is not God forcing us to believe?
They don't presume to be able to peer into God's mind and say how He does it. The how is not important. The what is what matters. It is only force in the minds of those who can't look at it any other way, and can only argue against it by going for an emotional reaction, rather than sound biblical exegesis and exposition. It is a stupid question.You are asking me to clear up something that doesn't exist in the doctrine. We are by nature turned away from God, and with the new birth, He turns us towards Him. He causes us to be reborn in Christ spiritually, whereas until He does that we are stuck in Adam. Sinners.
We need to hear what Calvinists actually believe, rather than always being told what Calvinists do not believe.
Please explain in your own words....
Calvinist always tell you what they believe and I am not going back through this whole thread but I would be willing to be if you read it from the beginning, you would find that to be the case.

Hope that helps.
 
God repented several places in the OT.
What do you think it means that God has repented ?

Repent In a penal way, to pay, atone, compensate, pay the price

He did not slip up and changed his mind. He changes not.

Exodus 32:14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people
 
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