Why don't Calvinist believe the Gospel?

[Josheb]

That's why I asked what must a person believe to be saved, and then what are saved from in that same thread. That didn't go over very well for obvious reasons.

I do not think anyone here is going to dispute the object of the belief must be Christ incarnate, crucified, dead, resurrected, and ascended for the propitiation of our sins is what must be believed. That is what must be believed. What you're asking has already been answered and addressed multiple times in these threads. It's not a point in dispute. The point that is in dispute is whether or not that faith is a faculty of the unsaved, unregenerate, still sinful flesh, or whether or not it is a faculty of the saved and regenerate spirit working within the individual to profess the faith God gave him (or her) since, according to Ephesians 2, salvation by grace through faith is not of ourselves.

Your salvation is not of you.
My salvation is not of me.
No one here's salvation is of them.

It is the gift of God. It is God who works in the saved to will and to do His good pleasure. It is NOT sin that works in us to will and to do His good pleasure.

 

[John Bauer]

Calvinists do believe the gospel—and with an insatiable passion.

But not everything called a gospel is the gospel. Not that there really is another gospel—there isn't—but we do get people who are eager to distort the gospel of Christ (Gal 1:7-9). They don't last long, of course, because they are quickly swarmed by ardent defenses of the gospel.

I am amazed that you have so quickly transferred your allegiance from him who called you in the grace of Christ to another “gospel”! Not, of course, that it is or ever could be another gospel, but there are obviously men who are upsetting your faith with a travesty of the gospel of Christ.

Yet I say that if I, or an angel from heaven, were to preach to you any other gospel than the one you have heard, may he be damned! You have heard me say it before and now I put it down in black and white—may anybody who preaches any other gospel than the one you have already heard be a damned soul!

– Galatians 1:7-9 (J. B. Phillips New Testament)

 

[John Bauer]

I can point to a verse that explicitly states what I posted[, that we are saved through faith, not saved by faith].

Exactly. We are saved by Christ, not by faith.

The saving power of faith resides not in itself, but in the almighty Savior on whom it rests. ... It is not, strictly speaking, even faith in Christ that saves, but Christ that saves through faith. The saving power resides exclusively, not in the act of faith, or the attitude of faith, or the nature of faith, but in the object of faith.

– B. B. Warfield

 

[Arial]

What Paul said in Romans 10:9-13 is the Gospel. You seem to disagree.

That is not the Gospel. It is about the Gospel but this IS the Gospel.

Gen 3:14-15

"Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall crush your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

The Gospel does not begin with the gospels or the NT. It is as eternal as the Godhead. The incarnation of the Son is the entrance of it into history. The Son himself is the Gospel. The crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, fulfilled the promise of Gen 3. Right now for the believer, and not yet for the consummation while His people are still being gathered

 

[Dave]

What if 'Believe and be Saved' only means to Believe and be Justified? We're Protestants, right? We believe in Justification through Faith Alone; which IS the moment of Salvation. The moment of the New Birth is not Salvation; Faith is the moment of Salvation...

I actually thought about that, for a second, and then set it aside just as fast. It doesn't add up, at least not at this point.

Why would it matter if Regeneration comes before Faith or after Faith; except for other reasons found in the Bible?

I think that it matters. It opens up the truth of the Bible. Error stifles the truth.

 

[Dave]

No...

I agree, it's impossible to be justified and not born again, and visa versa. Both result from the same thing.

 

[Dave]

Yes but the op is a strawman. I did not post what was claimed and the false accusation Calvinists do not believe the gospel is nonsense. AND..... furthermore, not a single verse in that link explicitly states belief causes salvation, nor do any of them attribute salvation or salvific faith to the faculties of the still-sinful unregenerate flesh of the non-believer. Most of those gospel verses were spoken to people already living within a Christological covenant relationship with God. All those epistolary verses are written ABOUT already saved and regenerate believers, not unsaved, unregenerate, non-believers.


So, @Dave,

Is it appropriate to take verses written about the saved and regenerate believer and apply them to unsaved, unregenerate, non-believers?


.

It's the faith (Gospel) that we (Christians) preach. The context even tells us who we preach that faith to in the next few verses (10:14-17), as I have shown in post #7. Those are unbelievers.

 

[Josheb]

It's the faith (Gospel) that we (Christians) preach. The context even tells us who we preach that faith to in the next few verses (10:14-17), as I have shown in post #7. Those are unbelievers.

That is not an answer to my question.

Is it appropriate to take verses written about the saved and regenerate believer and apply them to unsaved, unregenerate, non-believers?​

.

 

[Josheb]

It's the faith (Gospel) that we (Christians) preach.

That is completely incorrect.

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Luke 4:16-19
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

Acts 10:42-43
And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

1 Corinthians 1:22-24
For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

We preach crucified, resurrected, and ascended as the propitiation for our sins. Jesus is the gospel, not faith. We believe the gospel, we do not believe belief. We have faith in Christ resurrected, not faith in faith. The gospel is the power of God, not the faith of the unregenerate sinner.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

2 Corinthians 4:5
For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.

The apostles preached Christ, Christ crucified and resurrected.

1 Corinthians 2:2-5
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

Faith of the sinful flesh would be equal to the wisdom of men, not the power of God.

The context even tells us who we preach that faith to in the next few verses (10:14-17), as I have shown in post #7. Those are unbelievers.

These posts arguing for salvation by faith of the sinful and unregenerate flesh show the ability to properly exegete scripture is abysmal. The "they" of Romans 10:14-17 is covenant Israel, the Israel that is Israel by way of the Christological covenant and the promises thereof, not anyone else.

That is the context.


Now, will you please answer the question asked?

Is it appropriate to take verses written about the saved and regenerate believer and apply them to unsaved, unregenerate, non-believers?​

.

 

[Dave]

Is it appropriate to take verses written about the saved and regenerate believer and apply them to unsaved, unregenerate, non-believers?​

Google

My Question: How to answer someone who thinks that Romans 10:8-13 is not the Gospel because it was written to believers?

Answer:
When discussing Romans 10:8-13 with someone who believes it's not the Gospel because it was written to believers, it's helpful to explain the purpose of this passage within the broader context of Paul's letter to the Romans. Here's how you could respond:

1. Acknowledge the Audience:

• Start by agreeing that Romans was written to the church in Rome, primarily Gentiles, who were already believers. This shows you're engaging with their perspective.

2. Explain the Context of Romans 10 within the Epistle:

• Explain that Romans is a comprehensive theological treatise that builds on previous arguments.
• Paul in Romans 1-3 outlines the universal problem of sin among both Jews and Gentiles.
• In Romans 4-8, he elaborates on the solution to sin, which is salvation through faith in Christ.
• Romans 9-11 addresses the complexities of God's relationship with Israel and the inclusion of Gentiles in his plan.
• Romans 10:8-13 is situated within this discussion about Israel's response to the Gospel and how Gentiles have also been included.

3. Highlight the Nature of the Gospel:

• Emphasize that the "gospel" (or "good news") is a powerful message of God's victory through Jesus Christ.
• It's a message that requires a response of faith and trust, regardless of whether someone is a new believer or has been walking with the Lord for a long time.
• Romans 10:8-13 serves as a clear articulation of this saving message and the required response.

4. Explain Romans 10:9-13:

• Romans 10:9-10: Explain that this verse outlines the fundamental elements of salvation – confessing Jesus as Lord and believing in his resurrection.
• Romans 10:11-13: Show how these verses emphasize the inclusivity of salvation for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord.
• Point out that this applies to both Jews and Gentiles, highlighting that the gospel transcends ethnic and cultural boundaries.

5. Romans 10 as a Reminder and Call to Action:

• While the Romans were already believers, Paul uses these verses to remind them of the core truths of their faith and encourage them to live accordingly.
• This passage serves as a call for believers to be bold in their confession of Christ and actively participate in sharing the Gospel with others.

6. Conclusion:

• Romans 10:8-13 is not merely instruction for believers, but also a powerful expression of the Gospel that continues to be relevant for all people, both those who are new to the faith and those who are mature believers.

By explaining the context, highlighting the nature of the Gospel, and breaking down the verses within Romans 10:8-13, you can help them understand why this passage is considered a vital declaration of the Gospel message, even though it was addressed to believers.

------------------

 

[John Bauer]

Even with Google's help (such as it was), you did not answer his question.

Nor did Google, although it did agree with Josh that Romans 10:8-13 is "a powerful expression of the gospel that continues to be relevant for ... both those who are new to the faith and those who are mature believers"—in other words, regenerate believers.

Here is how it's done:

Q: Is it appropriate to take verses written about the saved and regenerate believer and apply them to unsaved, unregenerate, non-believers?

A: No.

 

[Josheb]

.....it's helpful to explain the purpose of this passage within the broader context of Paul's letter to the Romans.

The broader context of Romans 10 is Genesis 15:17-18. No one gets saved from sin apart from Christ crucified and resurrected and the covenant established by God thereof. The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed, and that seed is Christ. EVERYTHING written in Romans 10 occurs within that context. This has been pointed out multiple times and ignored on every occasion. I might ask, "Does anyone ever get saved from sin outside the covenant of Christ?" but it proves impossible to get an even more fundamental question like, "Is it appropriate to take verses written about the saved and regenerate believer and apply them to unsaved, unregenerate, non-believers?" correctly answered.

Google

My Question: How to answer someone who thinks that Romans 10:8-13 is not the Gospel because it was written [ABOUT]believers?

Answer:
When discussing Romans 10:8-13.....

When discussing Romans 10:8-13 it is inappropriate to avoid answering questions, change the questions asked, and pretend the question wasn't asked. Post #30 does not answer to the question asked. My time is being wasted. This opening post abuses posts of mine. [And it appears to] violate Rule 2.2:

Such things as inflammatory or marginalizing language, divisiveness, misquoting, misrepresenting, trolling, and personal attacks (including belittling, insulting, falsely accusing, or making assumptions about the character, motives, or faith of other members) are strictly prohibited. ... Avoid speech that incites needless conflict, fosters resentment, seeks to stir up strife among believers, or exaggerates or distorts another member's words in order to discredit them or to win an argument.​

[Content removed by moderator.]

Google

My Question:

Answer: ...

The attempt to explain scripture with a response from godless AI is a repugnant symptom of the problem to be solved—although Google got one thing correct: the gospel is a powerful message of God's victory through Jesus Christ. You're on record stating, "It is the faith (Gospel) that we (Christians) preach." Faith is not the gospel.

The gospel is the power of God; Christ crucified and resurrected for our sake, to take away the sins of the world. Faith to believe that gospel is gifted to a person, not a faculty of their unsaved, unregenerate, sinfully dead and enslaved flesh.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

The power of God, not the power of the unsaved, unregenerate sinful flesh's faculties.

1 Corinthians 1:22-24
For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles [it is] foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Christ IS the power of God. The gospel is a powerful message of God's victory through Jesus Christ, exactly as I stated HERE and HERE. The word "gospel" (Gk. euangelion) literally means an announcement of good news about a great victory. The "broader context" is that of Genesis 15:17-18. No one ever gets saved outside of a God-initiated, God-maintained, and God-sustained Christological covenant. No victory = no gospel. No Jesus = no gospel. No resurrection = no gospel. No King = no gospel.

The gospel exists whether anyone ever believes it or not. The gospel is a powerful message of God's victory through Jesus Christ.

That one sentence refuted every op and every post you've posted on the subject.

 

[John Bauer]

Evidently, Google's AI model leaves a lot to be desired. Here is how ChatGPT answered the question, "To whom, and about whom, is Romans 10:5-21 written?"

ChatGPT - Romans 10 Audience and Theme

Shared via ChatGPT

chatgpt.com

 

[Dave]

Even with Google's help (such as it was), you did not answer his question.

"To whom, and about whom, is Romans 10:5-21

I actually did answer the question back in post seven. Do you want me to quote it? I got tired of saying the same thing over and over all the while being accused of not answering. It's right there in the same passage.

I've never heard anyone actually claim that Romans 10:8-13 was not the Gospel. You guys are the first. I know that the 99% thing is important to you. You don't have it here.

 

[Arial]

I've never heard anyone actually claim that Romans 10:8-13 was not the Gospel. You guys are the first. I know that the 99% thing is important to you. You don't have it here.

You might listen to what they say about why and then deal with what they say. I haven't read all the posts but here is what I said about it. The post was never responded to and neither were any of the other responses I gave to you. I know one time you complained it was because I hadn't answered a couple of your questions. To which I replied, and truthfully, that I was not aware of any questions I had not answered, that if I knew what they were I would happily answer them, that I try to always answered questions to the best of my ability, even if I have to go in search of the answer. So what is your reason for not responding to my posts now? Here is my reason concerning Romans 10:8-13. Post #24.

That is not the Gospel. It is about the Gospel but this IS the Gospel.

Gen 3:14-15

"Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall crush your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

The Gospel does not begin with the gospels or the NT. It is as eternal as the Godhead. The incarnation of the Son is the entrance of it into history. The Son himself is the Gospel. The crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, fulfilled the promise of Gen 3. Right now for the believer, and not yet for the consummation while His people are still being gathered

 

[Dave]

That is not the Gospel. It is about the Gospel but this IS the Gospel.

Gen 3:14-15

"Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall crush your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

The Gospel refers to the good news of Jesus Christ. Romans 10:8-13 is the Gospel. Admittedly, there is context assumed into it, like repenting, and the bad news first, etc.. But the stripped down message is simple and clear, to be added upon when context is needed. Summarized, it's the Gospel.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

 

[Arial]

The Gospel refers to the good news of Jesus Christ. Romans 10:8-13 is the Gospel. Admittedly, there is context assumed into it, like repenting, and the bad news first, etc.. But the stripped down message is simple and clear, to be added upon when context is needed. Summarized, it's the Gospel.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Who do you think that Seed is in Gen 3:15?

 

[Josheb]

@Dave,

The case you've asserted demonstrates an acceptance of what Flowers teaches HERE:

I have yet to find a Calvinist who is able to show me one thing that the human means actually accomplish that is not sufficiently taken care of by the effectual work of regeneration. In Romans 10:14 when Paul asks the rhetorical question, “How shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard,” the clearly implied answer is that hearing is sufficient for believing. But, according to Calvinism, it is not. If Calvinism were true Paul would have certainly asked, “How shall they believe what they hear unless God regenerates them?”​

Flowers claims Romans 10:14, "clearly implied the answer is that hearing is sufficient for believing." Flowers acknowledges he sees an implication in the verse. Flowers states what he thinks is that implication, namely, hearing is sufficient. The problem is that is not what the verse actually states. The problem is the rest of the surrounding text does not support Flowers' "implication."

In the 1 John 5:1 op you stated,

The basis is to not go beyond the text. The proof is in the text itself.

But in this Soteriology 101 article Flowers has gone beyond the text. He has openly stated there is an implication AND openly stated what is that implication: hearing is sufficient for belief. The problem is millions of people have heard the gospel of the kingdom, and they did not believe. Flowers' response to that is they chose not to believe.

That then means what Flowers actually believes is hearing is sufficient to make a choice, not hearing is sufficient to believe. That is a much different statement than what Paul wrote in Romans 10:14. Notice Flowers does not reason through his own position any further than what he thinks is Paul is implying. Instead of providing a more thorough proof..... he scapegoats Calvinists. If he sets up a boogieman and then knocks down the boogieman he set up then he looks good and correct to the uncritical. Calvinists do not add to Romans 14 to make the text ask, "How shall they believe what they hear unless God regenerates them." Calvinists do not apply the verse to the unsaved, unregenerate, non-believer at all! Only synergists do that. So, not only has Flowers created a boogie man, but he has also argued a strawman for the boogieman. What Flowers did was infer an implication. He did not prove Paul implied what Flowers thinks.

The fact of the Romans 10 text, as I have already posted, is that the readers in Rome who'd heard the gospel were saved, regenerate believers and Paul was not writing about their salvation or how they would be saved, or how they got saved. Paul is writing about Israel, the Israel that is Israel, the Israel who are God's covenant people. Paul does not once mention any unsaved, unregenerate, non-covenant-participant non-believer EVER. Flowers ignores all of that when he attempts to leverage Romans 10:14.

You make all the same mistakes when you replicate Flowers' errors.

Be as critical of Flowers as you are of the Calvinists. Flowers is not reasoning well through the scriptures. Paul is not implying what Flowers thinks Paul is implying. Flowers has proof-texted that verse. He likes that verse and appeals to it a lot. He always does so proof-texting it and never properly exegeting the larger passage in which the verse occurs. Any implication of any verse is invariably discerned by the surrounding text in which the verse occurs. Absent any such explanation of whatever might be implied we should..... not go beyond the text.

 

[John Bauer]

Even with Google's help (such as it was), you did not answer his question.

"To whom, and about whom, is Romans 10:5-21 written?"

I actually did answer the question back in post seven. Do you want me to quote it?

Yeah, you're gonna have to quote it—because I just re-read the entirety of post #7 and didn't see anywhere an answer to Josh's question. If I have understood that post correctly, you seem to believe that Romans 10:8-11 was written TO believers but ABOUT unbelievers (since it describes what happens at conversion and forms the content of the evangelistic message). That doesn't answer Josh's question, but rather denies its core premise. As a result, the appropriateness question never comes into play; you have dissolved the premise rather than testing it.

 

[Josheb]

Yeah, you're gonna have to quote it—because I just re-read the entirety of post #7 and didn't see anywhere an answer to Josh's question. If I have understood that post correctly, you seem to believe that Romans 10:8-11 was written TO believers but ABOUT unbelievers (since it describes what happens at conversion and forms the content of the evangelistic message). That doesn't answer Josh's question, but rather denies its core premise. As a result, the appropriateness question never comes into play; you have dissolved the premise rather than testing it.

....you have dissolved the premise rather than testing it.

.....and thereby avoided the question and its answer.

And if I ever get an answer to that question there are more like it.