Why do Calvinists debate?

[Dave_Regenerated]

Nowhere in the Bible does it state or say that the human WILL is in bondage to sin. It just doesn't say that ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE. Whoever came up with those ideas was obviously wrong.

I googled and found that Augustine and Luther were mentioned as sources for this "will in bondage" idea. As far as I am concerned, you cannot derive that doctrine from any passage or verse of the Bible.

It is easy to conclude that that Theological idea is not scripture, so it cannot be taken seriously.

 

[Arial]

To satisfy people who are against Alter Calls, and those who aren't; I'd happily quote this at the end of my Sermons as a Doxology...

“Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.
Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and you will delight in the richest of fare.
Give ear and come to me; listen, that you may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David."

I am not against altar calls--as long as before the altar call is given, who Jesus is and what He did and how He did it, the gospel iow, is preached first. Too often that is not the case. The preaching often is done in a loaves and fishes manner, and people come for the loaves and fishes.

 

[Arial]

That's a weird way to reverse the order of events then. They are regenerated and they pray to God and are saved. HMMMMM. I don't think so!

Not what I said.

 

[ReverendRV]

That's a weird way to reverse the order of events then. They are regenerated and they pray to God and are saved. HMMMMM. I don't think so!

Dave, you must have misunderstood; because Calvinists agree with you that Regeneration occurs before Faith. When you know someone like @Arial and I are Calvinists, you should Presume we believe TULIP like it's meant to be understood...

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Dave, you must have misunderstood; because Calvinists agree with you that Regeneration occurs before Faith. When you know someone like @Arial and I are Calvinists, you should Presume we believe TULIP like it's meant to be understood...

That's also very strange, because I also have considered myself Calvinist. I have read most of the reformed literature in my life. The more I learn, the less I think Calvinism is even Biblical. How can regeneration occur before a person prays to God and then gets saved? I know it might be hard for you to understand that causes come before effects in nature, or that you go from 1 to 10 in an abacus, but your ignorance of basic events in time is no excuse. You cannot be regenerated BEFORE you believe if both of those events happen at the same TIME. You have not provided evidence from the scriptures to come up with this "regeneration comes before faith" thing. It is pure theological speculation to bolster belief systems derived from scripture that aren't necessarily in there.

 

[ReverendRV]

That's also very strange, because I also have considered myself Calvinist. I have read most of the reformed literature in my life. The more I learn, the less I think Calvinism is even Biblical. How can regeneration occur before a person prays to God and then gets saved? I know it might be hard for you to understand that causes come before effects in nature, or that you go from 1 to 10 in an abacus, but your ignorance of basic events in time is no excuse. You cannot be regenerated BEFORE you believe if both of those events happen at the same TIME. You have not provided evidence from the scriptures to come up with this "regeneration comes before faith" thing. It is pure theological speculation to bolster belief systems derived from scripture that aren't necessarily in there.

There's nothing to discuss about the Temporal Order...

Unless it's this...

Since Faith and Regeneration happen at the same Time, how can either depend on the other for it's existence?

 

[prism]

Sorry. Inside joke I guess. He is someone we encountered on another forum. I have no idea why he called himself Shroom but you may be onto something with the mushroom.

Silly sigh bin =Psilocybin mushroom an hallucinogen.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Does Calvinism claim that God changes a person's thinking and their will? I have read much Calvinistic literature and never see that before. Where are you getting this idea from? Leighton Flowers and Youtube comments?

"Irresistible grace" is a theological concept within the framework of Reformed or Calvinistic Christian theology. Irresistible grace, also known as efficacious grace, is the idea that when God extends His grace to an individual, it is so powerful and effective that the person cannot resist or reject it. In other words, those whom God has chosen for salvation will inevitably and irresistibly come to faith in Jesus Christ. This concept emphasizes God's sovereign work in the salvation of individuals, asserting that human will is unable to thwart God's purpose in bringing someone to faith.

This is changing one's thinking and will without their consent or knowledge. It makes one wonder why sin was allowed in the first place. If it is going to be eradicated by passive force then why even allow it at all?

Also, it portrays a God who damns individuals to hell while disallowing the efficacious grace to them that would save them. At the same time He is freely giving it to others. This does not seem to comport with a God who is love.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

If you could/would support that possibility from the scriptures it might mean something.

To be fair I was responding to an article that had only 1 scriptural citation in it.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

If you read closely and carefully the entire discourse that preceded that statement you will see. If the statement itself is not clear enough. Many are called but few are chosen. The chosen had a different kind of call than the many. So it is effectual grace. An inward call. Do you not think God is allowed to do this and that He can do this?

This would be true if the author was God, but I cannot find anywhere in scripture the concept that God has two different kinds of calls. Why would God give a call to one whom He has no intention of saving?

 

[ReverendRV]

This would be true if the author was God, but I cannot find anywhere in scripture the concept that God has two different kinds of calls. Why would God give a call to one whom He has no intention of saving?

Would you say there is a Call to God through General revelation?

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Think about what you said here. Effectual has a meaning, a definition. If an effectual call, one that had the desired effect went out to all men, all men would be saved. Your are misinterpreting the passage you refer to, and creating a contradiction in any number of places, in the Bible,as well as who God is, in doing so. Rather than just "proof texting" I will be waiting for your exegesis of that scripture.

I know that you believe I am misinterpreting the script but I am simply stating what is written. But when it says, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." It is pretty straightforward and unambiguous.

Peter also wrote something similar.
2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

In Paul's letter to Titus, he stated, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people," This theme runs through out the bible.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Would you say there is a Call to God through General revelation?

There is a revelation of God through nature. Romans 1:18-20 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness since what may be known about God is plain to them because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
But the call of God seems universal. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. - Acts 17:30

 

[Arial]

I know that you believe I am misinterpreting the script but I am simply stating what is written. But when it says, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." It is pretty straightforward and unambiguous.

Peter also wrote something similar.
2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

In Paul's letter to Titus, he stated, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people," This theme runs through out the bible.

Then what of every scriptures that speaks of the "elect," "the called," "the chosen," "the predestined?" What of the ones that say the ones God gives to Jesus are the only ones that He draws to them? And that before the foundation of the world. What of the fact that nowhere else in the Bible do we see people choosing God, but instead it is God choosing them? Not only persons, but nations, and times, and places and ways. Where do we see God consulting humanity on anything?

But I asked that you give an exegesis of those scriptures and you failed to do so. I am well aware of what they say, but I prefer to find out what they really mean instead of just saying what they mean. I have done so and will do so again for you if you would like, but I would like to see you do it. When I do it, we no longer have the contradiction. If you aren't going to address what I say or any of the scriptures I give, but merely keep repeating your position with no support but what is read into proof texts, there is no point in continuing. That only arrives at run on arguments and I have had my fill of them.

 

[Arial]

This would be true if the author was God, but I cannot find anywhere in scripture the concept that God has two different kinds of calls. Why would God give a call to one whom He has no intention of saving?

Then explain please what is meant many are called but few are chosen. Explain why Jesus spoke often in parables. Explain why He is able to say the same thing to them in three different ways and they still don't believe? He told them on a number of occasions it was because they were not His, God had blinded their eyes, God had shut their ears, God had hardened their hearts (Which is the opposite of softening them.)

And the answer to your question is because the gospel it is not withheld or kept secret from any. Which is also what it means when it says the light went out to the whole world.

I would like to see some defense, some meat, some exegesis, some support for where you obtain your beliefs. SOmething besides proof texts that are given no exegesis or assertions with no support, or just plain opinions based on speculation. I don't think that is too much to ask.

 

[Arial]

To be fair I was responding to an article that had only 1 scriptural citation in it.

It wasn't an article. It was a theological note within my Bible that was referenced from that very scripture and set of verses is Matt of the wedding supper where Jesus concluded with "Many are called and few are chosen.

 

[ReverendRV]

There is a revelation of God through nature. Romans 1:18-20 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness since what may be known about God is plain to them because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
But the call of God seems universal. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. - Acts 17:30

Thanks. Then there are two Calls; what if there are more?

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Thanks. Then there are two Calls; what if there are more?

I don’t consider discovering God by nature a call. A call is not passive. I know that the mayor of our town exists but that is different than if he called me.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Then explain please what is meant many are called but few are chosen. Explain why Jesus spoke often in parables. Explain why He is able to say the same thing to them in three different ways and they still don't believe? He told them on a number of occasions it was because they were not His, God had blinded their eyes, God had shut their ears, God had hardened their hearts (Which is the opposite of softening them.)

And the answer to your question is because the gospel it is not withheld or kept secret from any. Which is also what it means when it says the light went out to the whole world.

I would like to see some defense, some meat, some exegesis, some support for where you obtain your beliefs. SOmething besides proof texts that are given no exegesis or assertions with no support, or just plain opinions based on speculation. I don't think that is too much to ask.

The word speaks itself.

 

[ReverendRV]

I don’t consider discovering God by nature a call. A call is not passive. I know that the mayor of our town exists but that is different than if he called me.

Fair enough, but the Bible says Nature speaks to us about God's existence. But there's no need to quibble over it...

Would you say then that the Law of God is a Call?